C’mon now, If you’re going to use the Saddam was Satan incarnate argument, what about when we were friends back in the eighties? When we shared intel with him and WMDs, our Gov. the CIA knew about the rape rooms, the torture rooms, the assassinations!
Anyone can google up the numbers of friendly to America dictators we have supported over the years. Dictators who executed, raped, ran torture campaigns, hell our own CIA trained many of them to be the most effective tortures around! So, don’t run with the he was soooo evil to his people routine. Our Gov. only cares about others countries less fortunate people when it is convenient for them.
In the midst of several responses, I don’t want this little simple sentence to get overlooked.
Are you serious? I invite you to clarify this.
Saddam was one of the world’s great monsters - I’d give you the list of what atrocities he was reponsible for, but I’m sure you are aware of them. But we both know the list is long and the horror unspeakable.
So what evil was larger than Saddam Hussein, the Butcher of Baghdad?
I await your answer.
[/quote]
He was our ally when he was committing his worst crimes.
Flanker
I feel sorry for you. To maintain that the world is more dangerous due to removing Saddam is just plain ridiculous.
You sound like you are in the French Government. You know, “Don’t fight back, you might make them mad.”
Did you catch that EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE ELIGIBLE VOTERS CAST THEIR BALLOTS IN AFGHANISTAN?!?
That is TRUE PROGRESS.
Thanks for nothing, Germany, Russia, and France.
Thank you England, Poland, Australia, Hungary, Pre-Socialist Spain, and our other friends.
JeffR[/quote]
Ooops, got that one clearly wrong:
“The first ISAF mission was run by the United Kingdom headed by Maj Gen John McColl. Turkey then assumed the lead of the second ISAF mission, headed by Maj. Gen. Zorlu. The third ISAF mission was led by the 1st German/Netherlands Corps, headed by German Lt. Gen. Norbert van Heyst. The fourth mission, the first NATO-led, with Joint Headquarters Centre from Heidelberg, Germany. The fifth mission was led by the Canadians under the command of Lt. Gen. Rick Hillier. Currently EUROCORPS has the lead under the command of French Lt. Gen. Jean-Louis Py.”
A German and a Frenchman in charge of the mission. Never heard off… tsk, tsk…
I really think it is time that you realise that it is only the Iraq war that quite a few countries take issue with - not taking international responsibility in general. Oh, btw, they are also part of UNMIK in Kosovo and the EU just took over the Bosnia mission.
Too bad you can’t even see what I write anymore. All you see is the name. The post you are bitching about can hardly be classed as left or right at all.
Advocating caution and that things can go either way and that having more friends instead of less will make things easier is hardly ultra-liberal.
Maybe you could actually write about the issues I discuss instead of childishly trying to apply labels to me?
[quote]Soco wrote:
People here have simply found it more settling to accept Bush’s view then deal with reality.
[/quote]
… basically, I’d reword that into:
The prevailing US culture is to take the most self-serving and self-absorving view of the world, rather than trying to look at actual facts, in a realistic way.
Show me ONE Presidential election in the US where the “grim guy” won.
It’s not about being Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal: the guy who presents the most optimisitic, self-serving and self-absorving view will always win any election and have the support of the majority of the American people.
It’s also called: sticking your head in the sand.
Bush does that, but so did Clinton (.com bubble, anyone?). And most - if not all - of the Presidents before them. Sometimes it actually works for the best, too. But not always, and sometimes with grave consequences.
It’s part of the culture and the way people think in this country. It’s everywhere: not only in politics, but also in every company I’ve worked for. God forbid that you dare present any facts. Or give a bad spin on statistics. If you even dare present a less-wildly-optimistic view, you’re out. You’re history. Almost everybody does it, Conservatives and Liberals. Heck, I don’t know anyone as self-serving and self-absorved as the very liberal mayor of my very liberal home town, Gavin Newsom. My next name on the list: the very Conservative George W. Bush. Different views, yes, but exactly the same - very american - self-absorbing personality. The World revolves around them.
And that’s what pisses off the rest of the World, because nobody else would be open to the idea that the World revolves around the US. Why should they?
I could go on with historic examples, but I’ll present some actual scientific, unbiased evidence in the form of this unbiased, non-political, study:
The part that proves my point is where it shows that while US Teenagers are below average in Math skills - when asked to self-evaluate, they were widly optimistic and gave themselves a very high score. So much so that they scored themselves higher than anyone else, both on their Math Skills and their ability to learn new Math Skills. So they think they’re both very skilled and very intelligent; but, on average, they’re not - they’re actually less skilled, on average, than students from most other countries in Northern Europe and Asia.
Basically, they think they’re much better than they really are.
Now contrast that to Europeans - who were shown to be pretty good at self-evaluating themselves - and, in the other extreme, to Asians (Japanese, Koreans, Chinese) who self-deprecated themselves in their self-evaluation.
If you want to maintain the American Way of Life, you cannot overestimate yourself and underestimate your enemy. Unfortunately, that’s the mistake Americans have made over and over and over again, especially in the last few decades.
Money and Technology will not save US lifes forever - especially considering most of it these days is created by Europeans and manufactured by Asians. We need them as much as they need us.
Now, if I chose to keep living in this country, it is because I do love it with all my heart and would not think of living by choice in any other nation. I’ve travelled a lot and have seen many other nations - namely, all the ones listed in the study above - none of which I’d like better to live in. But I will not let that blind me from the fact that most people in the US live in a fantasy they call reality.
Also, as long as I can, I’ll vote in every single election - even though I’ll invariably have to pick not a candidate I feel confident will do a good job, but the lesser of the evils - the guy that will screw-up the least.
But, honestly, the only reason I can find this country has been able to reach the level of power and relevance in the World is because God really protects the fools… Most of the time, at least.
“The first ISAF mission was run by the United Kingdom headed by Maj Gen John McColl. Turkey then assumed the lead of the second ISAF mission, headed by Maj. Gen. Zorlu. The third ISAF mission was led by the 1st German/Netherlands Corps, headed by German Lt. Gen. Norbert van Heyst. The fourth mission, the first NATO-led, with Joint Headquarters Centre from Heidelberg, Germany. The fifth mission was led by the Canadians under the command of Lt. Gen. Rick Hillier. Currently EUROCORPS has the lead under the command of French Lt. Gen. Jean-Louis Py.”
A German and a Frenchman in charge of the mission. Never heard off… tsk, tsk…
I really think it is time that you realise that it is only the Iraq war that quite a few countries take issue with - not taking international responsibility in general. Oh, btw, they are also part of UNMIK in Kosovo and the EU just took over the Bosnia mission.
Makkum,
It is true that the other countries are now pitching in to help out with the OEF mission but, their first mission was not until August of 2003. My unit was flying there in October of 2001. I am not trying to diminish their role, just point out that they didn’t take inernational responsibility until most of the heavy lifting was done.
You should base your actions on the expected results not what you would like to happen.
In the case of Iraq, the CIA along with other agencies put out very negative forecasts for the long term result. The president instead choice to listen to his neo-con buddies and go charging in.
Saddam was a butcher but in the course of the war roughly 100,000 Iraqis and over 1,000 U.S. troops have died. In addition, what do you think will happen if the US pulls out and Al Qaeda fills the political vacuum? Civil war at the minimum.
If you take into account the impact on america’s image in the middle east, the toll the Iraqi people have and will incur, and the actual impact on the war on terrorism, the war in Iraq has been a clear loss.
Well well, bury your head in the dirt, thats where georgie boy and cronies wants you, while he wastes the middle east and plans for more. just wait and see. Ye voted him in and ye gets what ye sows. yesssiree!
[/quote]
That has got to be one of the most intelligent posts I have read here.
[quote]CDM wrote:
Ooops, got that one clearly wrong:
…
A German and a Frenchman in charge of the mission. Never heard off… tsk, tsk…
I really think it is time that you realise that it is only the Iraq war that quite a few countries take issue with - not taking international responsibility in general. Oh, btw, they are also part of UNMIK in Kosovo and the EU just took over the Bosnia mission.
Makkum,
It is true that the other countries are now pitching in to help out with the OEF mission but, their first mission was not until August of 2003. My unit was flying there in October of 2001. I am not trying to diminish their role, just point out that they didn’t take inernational responsibility until most of the heavy lifting was done.
[/quote]
Point taken - for Germany (my pet subject), I disagree though. http://www.discovery.de/de/pub/specials/terror/chronik/bundeswehreinsaetze/einsaetze2001.htm (a German source, though I guess there are English ones to be found aswell) states that German troops started patroling in Kabul on 14.01.2002. Before that on 02.01.2002 the biggest German marine forces (since WW2) moved out from Bremerhaven to support the Afghanistan effort by taking over patroling from the US before some African shores. The Bundeswehr has 2 main problems to do any “heavy lifting”: It is a comparably defensive force and every military action outside of Europe is quite hard to action due to certain provisions in the German “constitution”. But - they have helped out, and in other theatres they have been around longer.
Fallujah Residents Face Choice: Retina Scan and Take ID Card…Or Die
A caller to the Alex Jones show played a segment from Tom Brokaw’s last broadcast on NBC which featured a report from Iraq clearly stating that residents of Fallujah (civilians, NOT insurgents) would be forced to give fingerprints, retina scan and take an ID card or be killed.
Here is the transcript from the report…
Reporter: "So far the plan is for most of the city’s 250,000 residents to return in stages and first only a few thousand will be let in.
They’ll be fingerprinted, given a retina scan and then an ID card, which will only allow them to travel around their homes or to nearby aid centers which are now being built.
The Marines will be authorized to use deadly force against those breaking the rules…Tom?"
Brokaw: "Richard, what’s the latest on the election?.. "
Alex has been documenting for years in his acclaimed Police State videos the fact that this same system is being introduced in the US.
The so-called ‘liberation’ of Iraq is a test run for when the soldiers over there now become police in the US. From sound wave weapons to detention camps and torture, everything being inflicted on the Iraqis is being introduced in America.
Alex Jones comments…
In 1999 I traveled to Oakland California to cover the Marine Corps execution of Operation Urban Warrior. Thousands of Marines opnely trained to biometrically scan American citizens, seperate the men, women and children in a concentration camp environment, and conduct interrogations. Video in my film, Police State 2000 shows Marine Corps officers questioning role-players who were posing as American resistance fighters. Loudspeakers informed the population of the mock camp filled with hundreds of role-players, that if they tried to escape or resist they would be killed.
Now the public consciousness is so seared that an NBC reporter can just nonchalantly talk about an instant death penalty for anyone that doesn’t have their biometric card in order or that strays off pre-determined paths on their way to authorized destinations. The Nazis did the same thing in the Polish ghettos. This is total seige, it is the highest expression of pure martial law. ID cards are now being issued across Iraq, the entire country and its 23 million inhabitants are simply being straight-jacketed so the Globalists can continue the oldest form of total war - seige - upon them.
From thousands of credible reports, from reporters on the ground, we know that Iraq is now descending into a black hole. And I want all of the soft, decadent, bloated, demon-possessed, Neo-Con followers to enjoy themselves. Sit in your easy chairs, cheer the slaughter of over a hundred thousand innocent people. Feel like you’re part of this global iron fist. Look at it from your coddled position and know - you don’t have to fear the CIA controlled Al-CIAda, you had better fear your Globalist masters because they don’t give a damn about you. I’ve got the government documents, I’ve got the video. The government’s been training to do this to you for a long time. So cheer like it’s a football game. Cheer the death of all those innocent children. And know that through your weakness and your lack of historical understanding, you have allowed America to lose its soul. Now prepare to reap what you sow. And as your Globalist owners are raping the hell out of you financially, spiritually, mentally, I know you’re so weak-minded you’ll thank them for it and blame some imaginary turban-headed bogeyman
Beware the beast man Bush, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.
It’s Still the Economy, War,100,000 Iraq Civilians Slaughtered, Deficit, Recession, Patriot Act, Torture, Lies, No-Bid Contracts, Backdoor Draft, Secret Policy Meetings, Environment, Destruction of the Constitution,Secretive Government,Complete Annullment of Enviromental Laws, Anti-Science Policy, Corporate Cronyism,Stolen Election and Everything Else, stupid!!!
“It scares the shit out of me that there is a single soul in this country that can still be in support of George W. Bush.” Doco