Iran Threatening Europe over Israel

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran warns of revenge over Israel

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again questioned the extent of the Holocaust, when German Nazis murdered six million Jews.

Israel was founded on “claims about the Holocaust” for which the Palestinians were paying the price, he told a rally.

He was speaking on Jerusalem Day, when there are large demonstrations in Iran in support of the Palestinians.

BBC Tehran correspondent Frances Harrison says the tone of the speech was hardline, even by Mr Ahmadinejad’s standards.

Implicit threat

Mr Ahmadinejad called Israel’s leaders a “group of terrorists” and appeared to threaten any country that supports it.

Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Iran’s proud and discreet Jews

“You imposed a group of terrorists… on the region. It is in your own interest to distance yourself from these criminals… This is an ultimatum. Don’t complain tomorrow.”

The “ultimatum” was directed at European states in particular.

“We have advised the Europeans that the Americans are far away, but you are the neighbours of the nations in this region,” Mr Ahmadinejad said.

“We inform you that the nations are like an ocean that is welling up, and if a storm begins, the dimensions will not stay limited to Palestine, and you may get hurt.”

‘Israeli insecurity’

Mr Ahmadinejad said Israel no longer had any reason to exist and would soon disappear. “This regime, thanks to God, has lost the reason for its existence. Efforts to stabilise this fake regime, by the grace of God, have completely failed.”

Mr Ahmadinejad said: “Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it.”

He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin.

Mr Ahmadinejad said Lebanese Hezbollah militants had shattered the myth of Israel’s military power, so that “Zionists” in their homes in various corners of the world, could not now enjoy security.

The Iranian president has regularly questioned the extent of the Holocaust, and been a trenchant critic of Israel.

In 2004 he drew widespread and angry international criticism when he approvingly quoted comments by Ayatollah Khomeini that Israel’s existence should be brought to an end.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran warns of revenge over Israel

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again questioned the extent of the Holocaust, when German Nazis murdered six million Jews.

Israel was founded on “claims about the Holocaust” for which the Palestinians were paying the price, he told a rally.

He was speaking on Jerusalem Day, when there are large demonstrations in Iran in support of the Palestinians.

BBC Tehran correspondent Frances Harrison says the tone of the speech was hardline, even by Mr Ahmadinejad’s standards.

Implicit threat

Mr Ahmadinejad called Israel’s leaders a “group of terrorists” and appeared to threaten any country that supports it.

Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Iran’s proud and discreet Jews

“You imposed a group of terrorists… on the region. It is in your own interest to distance yourself from these criminals… This is an ultimatum. Don’t complain tomorrow.”

The “ultimatum” was directed at European states in particular.

“We have advised the Europeans that the Americans are far away, but you are the neighbours of the nations in this region,” Mr Ahmadinejad said.

“We inform you that the nations are like an ocean that is welling up, and if a storm begins, the dimensions will not stay limited to Palestine, and you may get hurt.”

‘Israeli insecurity’

Mr Ahmadinejad said Israel no longer had any reason to exist and would soon disappear. “This regime, thanks to God, has lost the reason for its existence. Efforts to stabilise this fake regime, by the grace of God, have completely failed.”

Mr Ahmadinejad said: “Even if we assume the Holocaust is true, then why should the Palestinians pay the price for it.”

He said millions of Israelis should go back to their countries of origin.

Mr Ahmadinejad said Lebanese Hezbollah militants had shattered the myth of Israel’s military power, so that “Zionists” in their homes in various corners of the world, could not now enjoy security.

The Iranian president has regularly questioned the extent of the Holocaust, and been a trenchant critic of Israel.

In 2004 he drew widespread and angry international criticism when he approvingly quoted comments by Ayatollah Khomeini that Israel’s existence should be brought to an end.

[/quote]

Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.

[quote]100meters wrote:

Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.[/quote]

While the President doesn’t have direct control over the Armed Forces, he is far from having “no power in their political system.” Nor, is the Ayatollah himself, know for moderate views…

"In contrast with most republics, the effective head of Iran’s political establishment is not the president, but rather the Supreme Leader, who is a religious figure selected by an Assembly of Experts.

Despite this, Iran’s president fulfills many of the classical functions of a head of state, such as accepting the credentials of ambassadors. Since a change in the constitution removed the post of Prime Minister and merged most of the prime ministerial duties with the President’s in 1989, the once figurehead Presidential post has become a position of significant government influence. In addition, as the highest directly elected official in Iran, the President is responsive and responsible to public opinion in a way that the Supreme Leader is not. Although he is responsible to both people and the Supreme Leader, he is independent in his decisions and developing the policies of the government.

The president of the Islamic Republic is the head of government. He nominates the members of government to the majlis. He can dimiss any of the government members. He passes bills to the parliament and if apporved, the bills are not effective until signed by the president. Although according to the constitution the Supreme Leader is the commander-in-chief of armed forces, he can serve as the commander upon approval of the leader. For example, the first elected president of Iran was also commander of the military. The president appoints the secretary of national security council. He appoints the governors of the provinces and ambassadors of the Islamic Republic to other countries. Until recently, he had the power of appointing mayors of cities. However, the power was given to the cities local assemblies which are directly elected by the people and are directed by the parliament."

[quote]Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:

Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.

While the President doesn’t have direct control over the Armed Forces, he is far from having “no power in their political system.” Nor, is the Ayatollah himself, know for moderate views…

"In contrast with most republics, the effective head of Iran’s political establishment is not the president, but rather the Supreme Leader, who is a religious figure selected by an Assembly of Experts.

Despite this, Iran’s president fulfills many of the classical functions of a head of state, such as accepting the credentials of ambassadors. Since a change in the constitution removed the post of Prime Minister and merged most of the prime ministerial duties with the President’s in 1989, the once figurehead Presidential post has become a position of significant government influence. In addition, as the highest directly elected official in Iran, the President is responsive and responsible to public opinion in a way that the Supreme Leader is not. Although he is responsible to both people and the Supreme Leader, he is independent in his decisions and developing the policies of the government.

The president of the Islamic Republic is the head of government. He nominates the members of government to the majlis. He can dimiss any of the government members. He passes bills to the parliament and if apporved, the bills are not effective until signed by the president. Although according to the constitution the Supreme Leader is the commander-in-chief of armed forces, he can serve as the commander upon approval of the leader. For example, the first elected president of Iran was also commander of the military. The president appoints the secretary of national security council. He appoints the governors of the provinces and ambassadors of the Islamic Republic to other countries. Until recently, he had the power of appointing mayors of cities. However, the power was given to the cities local assemblies which are directly elected by the people and are directed by the parliament."
[/quote]

Like I said, it doesn’t matter what he says. He’s a silly spokesperson with zero credibility and no military authority. Just ignore him.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:

Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.

While the President doesn’t have direct control over the Armed Forces, he is far from having “no power in their political system.” Nor, is the Ayatollah himself, know for moderate views…

"In contrast with most republics, the effective head of Iran’s political establishment is not the president, but rather the Supreme Leader, who is a religious figure selected by an Assembly of Experts.

Despite this, Iran’s president fulfills many of the classical functions of a head of state, such as accepting the credentials of ambassadors. Since a change in the constitution removed the post of Prime Minister and merged most of the prime ministerial duties with the President’s in 1989, the once figurehead Presidential post has become a position of significant government influence. In addition, as the highest directly elected official in Iran, the President is responsive and responsible to public opinion in a way that the Supreme Leader is not. Although he is responsible to both people and the Supreme Leader, he is independent in his decisions and developing the policies of the government.

The president of the Islamic Republic is the head of government. He nominates the members of government to the majlis. He can dimiss any of the government members. He passes bills to the parliament and if apporved, the bills are not effective until signed by the president. Although according to the constitution the Supreme Leader is the commander-in-chief of armed forces, he can serve as the commander upon approval of the leader. For example, the first elected president of Iran was also commander of the military. The president appoints the secretary of national security council. He appoints the governors of the provinces and ambassadors of the Islamic Republic to other countries. Until recently, he had the power of appointing mayors of cities. However, the power was given to the cities local assemblies which are directly elected by the people and are directed by the parliament."

Like I said, it doesn’t matter what he says. He’s a silly spokesperson with zero credibility and no military authority. Just ignore him.[/quote]

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call. Doesn’t that give weight to what he’s saying?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?
[/quote]

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.
[/quote]

Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.
[/quote]

I’ll let you ignore the power and role of the President, as I’ve posted it. I’m intriqued by your line of arguement.

You’re claiming the President is under the complete control, and authority, of the Supreme Leader. Which I do agree, the Supreme Leader can at anytime step in and put the President back in his place.

Yet, the President threatens the destruction of Israel, and makes threats to Europe. So this President is usurping the all powerful Supreme Leader? He’s bucking the the Supreme Leader’s positions?

As a reminder on the Ayatollah’s stance on Israel…

http://archives.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/31/2000/

“Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called for the destruction of Israel, saying it was the only way to solve the problems of the Middle East.”

[quote]Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call. Doesn’t that give weight to what he’s saying?
[/quote]

Sloth owns 100meters again.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.[/quote]

It’s idiotic. He isn’t saying anything new or changing his position. Either you understand and agree with him or you don’t.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?[/quote]

Lol, wait for what? They are talking tough because America has shown weakness in the Middle East. What better way would there be to antagonize them further than by provoking them with a direct confrontation?

Back off, and the problem will go away. Unlike America, Iran is not trying to police the entire world. It simply wants peace and quiet in it’s own backyard.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
100meters wrote:
Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.

It’s idiotic. He isn’t saying anything new or changing his position. Either you understand and agree with him or you don’t.

Rockscar wrote:
Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?

Lol, wait for what? They are talking tough because America has shown weakness in the Middle East. What better way would there be to antagonize them further than by provoking them with a direct confrontation?

Back off, and the problem will go away. Unlike America, Iran is not trying to police the entire world. It simply wants peace and quiet in it’s own backyard.[/quote]

Peace and Quiet in it’s own backyard?

Is that why they export munitions, training and cash to terrorist groups throughout the Middle East…to promote peace and quiet?

Europe will cave in, it will just take some more time. Lack of political will and military ability has already assured that of happening.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
100meters wrote:
Uhmm…the president of Iran has no power in their political system. Why people continue to pretend it matters what he says is beyond me.

It’s idiotic. He isn’t saying anything new or changing his position. Either you understand and agree with him or you don’t.

Rockscar wrote:
Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?

Lol, wait for what? They are talking tough because America has shown weakness in the Middle East. What better way would there be to antagonize them further than by provoking them with a direct confrontation?

Back off, and the problem will go away. Unlike America, Iran is not trying to police the entire world. It simply wants peace and quiet in it’s own backyard.[/quote]

Dead wrong. They want to export Islamic radicalism. That is the whole point.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call. Doesn’t that give weight to what he’s saying?

Sloth owns 100meters again.
[/quote]
Funny, cause what I said was true.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.

Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?

[/quote]

Or when they approach us to make nice, maybe meet with them?

"Just after the lightning takeover of Baghdad by U.S. forces three years ago, an unusual two-page document spewed out of a fax machine at the Near East bureau of the State Department. It was a proposal from Iran for a broad dialogue with the United States, and the fax suggested everything was on the table – including full cooperation on nuclear programs, acceptance of Israel and the termination of Iranian support for Palestinian militant groups.

But top Bush administration officials, convinced the Iranian government was on the verge of collapse, belittled the initiative. Instead, they formally complained to the Swiss ambassador who had sent the fax with a cover letter certifying it as a genuine proposal supported by key power centers in Iran, former administration officials said."

[quote]Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.

I’ll let you ignore the power and role of the President, as I’ve posted it. I’m intriqued by your line of arguement.

You’re claiming the President is under the complete control, and authority, of the Supreme Leader. Which I do agree, the Supreme Leader can at anytime step in and put the President back in his place.

Yet, the President threatens the destruction of Israel, and makes threats to Europe. So this President is usurping the all powerful Supreme Leader? He’s bucking the the Supreme Leader’s positions?

As a reminder on the Ayatollah’s stance on Israel…

http://archives.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/31/2000/

“Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called for the destruction of Israel, saying it was the only way to solve the problems of the Middle East.”

[/quote]

Thanks for finally admitting he has no power.

I believe the Ayatollah has also said the have no interest in developing nuclear weapons.

and of course this is what they wanted in 2003:

"The document lists a series of Iranian aims for the talks, such as ending sanctions, full access to peaceful nuclear technology and a recognition of its “legitimate security interests.” Iran agreed to put a series of U.S. aims on the agenda, including full cooperation on nuclear safeguards, “decisive action” against terrorists, coordination in Iraq, ending “material support” for Palestinian militias and accepting the Saudi initiative for a two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The document also laid out an agenda for negotiations, with possible steps to be achieved at a first meeting and the development of negotiating road maps on disarmament, terrorism and economic cooperation.

Newsday has previously reported that the document was primarily the work of Sadegh Kharazi, Iran’s ambassador to France and nephew of Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi and passed on by the Swiss ambassador to Tehran, Tim Guldimann. The Swiss government is a diplomatic channel for communications between Tehran and Washington because the two countries broke off relations after the 1979 seizure of U.S. embassy personnel.

Leverett said Guldimann included a cover letter that it was an authoritative initiative that had the support of then-President Mohammad Khatami and supreme religious leader Ali Khamenei."

When we get a president skilled at foreign policy, there’s a good chance we could return to that.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.

Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?

Or when they approach us to make nice, maybe meet with them?

"Just after the lightning takeover of Baghdad by U.S. forces three years ago, an unusual two-page document spewed out of a fax machine at the Near East bureau of the State Department. It was a proposal from Iran for a broad dialogue with the United States, and the fax suggested everything was on the table – including full cooperation on nuclear programs, acceptance of Israel and the termination of Iranian support for Palestinian militant groups.

But top Bush administration officials, convinced the Iranian government was on the verge of collapse, belittled the initiative. Instead, they formally complained to the Swiss ambassador who had sent the fax with a cover letter certifying it as a genuine proposal supported by key power centers in Iran, former administration officials said."

[/quote]

You are amazingly gullible when it suits the Democratic Partys aims.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:

Thanks for finally admitting he has no power.

I believe the Ayatollah has also said the have no interest in developing nuclear weapons.

and of course this is what they wanted in 2003:

"The document lists a series of Iranian aims for the talks, such as ending sanctions, full access to peaceful nuclear technology and a recognition of its “legitimate security interests.” Iran agreed to put a series of U.S. aims on the agenda, including full cooperation on nuclear safeguards, “decisive action” against terrorists, coordination in Iraq, ending “material support” for Palestinian militias and accepting the Saudi initiative for a two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The document also laid out an agenda for negotiations, with possible steps to be achieved at a first meeting and the development of negotiating road maps on disarmament, terrorism and economic cooperation.

Newsday has previously reported that the document was primarily the work of Sadegh Kharazi, Iran’s ambassador to France and nephew of Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi and passed on by the Swiss ambassador to Tehran, Tim Guldimann. The Swiss government is a diplomatic channel for communications between Tehran and Washington because the two countries broke off relations after the 1979 seizure of U.S. embassy personnel.

Leverett said Guldimann included a cover letter that it was an authoritative initiative that had the support of then-President Mohammad Khatami and supreme religious leader Ali Khamenei."

When we get a president skilled at foreign policy, there’s a good chance we could return to that.[/quote]

You’ve got the most obvious info block I’ve ever seen. You turn all I’ve posted, into me admitting he has no power? Wow! I’d wager the vast majority of people reading are directing a big “huh?” your way. I guess you ignored what I’ve posted, and turned my “for the sake of arguement” text into an admission.

Wow, a document! Where’s the announced public recognition of Israel? Where’s the announced ‘decisive’ anti-terrorism laws? By the way, it’s an admission of funding terrorist groups, at least in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And, can be seen as an addmission to turning a blind eye towards terrorism, in general. But, but, if we allow them this, then (and only then…) apperently they’ll take “decisive” action against terrorism. “Hey, we just want nuclear power for peaceful reasons! And we’ll agree to start being peaceful if you allow this!”

Instead, the “powerless” president gets to set the tone of the Nation (destruction of Israel, threats to europe) under the hapless Supreme leader, I guess. Seems to me that Supreme Leader would be telling the “powerless” maniac to shut the fuck up and sit down.

Here, I’ll use your attitude. You can apologize now. And, thanks for admitting you’re wrong!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
100meters wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:

You honestly believe he’s just a spokesperson? After laying out his powers and position? By the way, your arguement defeats itself.

Let’s say he is a mere spokesperson, at the Ayatollah’s beck and call, for the Ayatollah. Does that give weight to what he’s saying?

He has no power. His finger is on no button. And he’s not a spokesperson for the Supreme Leader, nor his councils. Just a spokesperson for a small group of radicals. In otherwords it would be hard to square his rhetoric with the supreme leader’s efforts in 2003 to normalize relations with the U.S. and Israel, including putting its nuclear program on the negotiating table.

Of course the Bush admin, in all its infinite wisdom rejected that.

Are you serious or just joking? Ignoring Iran and it’s rhetoric like this is for ignorant people who live in a fantasy world…even if he’s a spokesman, it tells the same story.

Let’s just sit, ignore, and wait untill it’s too late right?

Or when they approach us to make nice, maybe meet with them?

"Just after the lightning takeover of Baghdad by U.S. forces three years ago, an unusual two-page document spewed out of a fax machine at the Near East bureau of the State Department. It was a proposal from Iran for a broad dialogue with the United States, and the fax suggested everything was on the table – including full cooperation on nuclear programs, acceptance of Israel and the termination of Iranian support for Palestinian militant groups.

But top Bush administration officials, convinced the Iranian government was on the verge of collapse, belittled the initiative. Instead, they formally complained to the Swiss ambassador who had sent the fax with a cover letter certifying it as a genuine proposal supported by key power centers in Iran, former administration officials said."

You are amazingly gullible when it suits the Democratic Partys aims.[/quote]

I’m guessing you prefer Iran persuing a nuclear program…I however would prefer them not to continue nuclear ambitions…(is that a democratic party aim, or a sensible person’s aim?)

or better,

Zap,
Do you think Bush made a mistake rejecting Iran’s offer?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:

Thanks for finally admitting he has no power.

I believe the Ayatollah has also said the have no interest in developing nuclear weapons.

and of course this is what they wanted in 2003:

"The document lists a series of Iranian aims for the talks, such as ending sanctions, full access to peaceful nuclear technology and a recognition of its “legitimate security interests.” Iran agreed to put a series of U.S. aims on the agenda, including full cooperation on nuclear safeguards, “decisive action” against terrorists, coordination in Iraq, ending “material support” for Palestinian militias and accepting the Saudi initiative for a two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The document also laid out an agenda for negotiations, with possible steps to be achieved at a first meeting and the development of negotiating road maps on disarmament, terrorism and economic cooperation.

Newsday has previously reported that the document was primarily the work of Sadegh Kharazi, Iran’s ambassador to France and nephew of Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi and passed on by the Swiss ambassador to Tehran, Tim Guldimann. The Swiss government is a diplomatic channel for communications between Tehran and Washington because the two countries broke off relations after the 1979 seizure of U.S. embassy personnel.

Leverett said Guldimann included a cover letter that it was an authoritative initiative that had the support of then-President Mohammad Khatami and supreme religious leader Ali Khamenei."

When we get a president skilled at foreign policy, there’s a good chance we could return to that.

You’ve got the most obvious info block I’ve ever seen. You turn all I’ve posted, into me admitting he has no power? Wow! I’d wager the vast majority of people reading are directing a big “huh?” your way. I guess you ignored what I’ve posted, and turned my “for the sake of arguement” text into an admission.

Wow, a document! Where’s the announced public recognition of Israel? Where’s the announced ‘decisive’ anti-terrorism laws? By the way, it’s an admission of funding terrorist groups, at least in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And, can be seen as an addmission to turning a blind eye towards terrorism, in general. But, but, if we allow them this, then (and only then…) apperently they’ll take “decisive” action against terrorism. “Hey, we just want nuclear power for peaceful reasons! And we’ll agree to start being peaceful if you allow this!”

Instead, the “powerless” president gets to set the tone of the Nation (destruction of Israel, threats to europe) under the hapless Supreme leader, I guess. Seems to me that Supreme Leader would be telling the “powerless” maniac to shut the fuck up and sit down.

Here, I’ll use your attitude. You can apologize now. And, thanks for admitting you’re wrong!

[/quote]

Sigh, since you still aren’t getting it…
The president doesn’t speak for the supreme leader, and for the most part are GREATLY at odds, in fact the supreme leader probably resents the presidents popularity which stems from his semi-socialist agenda (anti-privatization, pro-working class, etc.). The supreme leader’s goal are very much oriented to privatization and economic policy that benefits the bazaari interests. Hence the supreme leader’s great interest in achieving normal relations with the U.S. (prior to being rebuffed by Bush–but still there to some degree) In short the two ARE NOT A TEAM!!!
for some perspective the supreme leader’s council feels this way:

In the middle of a tirade about the pointlessness of talking with the Bush administration, a senior Iranian official I met in Tehran last month abruptly paused and asked if he could speak off the record. Then he said: “What we need is an American president who will follow the example of Richard Nixon going to China.”

There in a nutshell is what this Iranian government, and most Iranians I’ve spoken to, fervently desire from the United States: not the tactical talks offered last week by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice but strategic recognition of Iran as a great civilization and a regional power that must be treated, like China, as a “stakeholder” in global affairs. Grant us that, said the Iranian official I saw, and “just as with China, you’ll find a government that is more responsive to your concerns, more willing to play a cooperative role.”

It was interesting to hear that pitch from an officer of a government whose president has recently invited the United States, aka “global arrogance,” to abandon democracy and accept the dissolution of Israel. It was a reminder that, whatever President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may say in public, obtaining recognition from Washington remains one of the Islamic regime’s foremost goals – and perhaps the most powerful nonmilitary card the West holds in seeking to stop Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons.

and…

ISTANBUL – As diplomatic maneuvering continues over Iran’s nuclear program, the cleric who holds ultimate authority in the country has signaled twice in recent days that Iran intends to engage the wider world it long held at bay.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran’s supreme leader, announced the formation of a new council to advise him on foreign affairs and a new privatization program aimed at preparing Iran for eventual membership in the World Trade Organization…

…The formation of a new foreign relations panel may also indicate dissatisfaction with the foreign policy performance of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Khamenei named as the panel’s chairman Kamal Kharrazi, the man Ahmadinejad removed as foreign minister after taking office last year.

“I think it’s significant,” said a European diplomat in Tehran, who asked to not be identified further so that he could speak openly. “Personally, I think it amounts to trying to put limits to the president.”

The new Strategic Council for Foreign Relations also includes another former foreign minister, a former admiral in the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, a former commerce official and a cleric with hard-line credentials who has served as Iran’s ambassador to China. The new council joins a constellation of existing government panels devoted to foreign policy, but it will report directly to Khamenei, who “sensed a deficiency,” Kharrazi told Iranian media.

Bill Samii, who follows Iranian affairs for U.S.-funded Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, said Ahmadinejad’s confrontational rhetoric reflects the views of fellow veterans of the eight-year war with Iraq, when Iran was bitterly disappointed to find itself fighting alone. Western powers and Arab states supported Saddam Hussein’s secular Iraq.

“Ahmadinejad and his cohorts play up the sort of appeal to the Third World and the Non-Aligned Movement on the nuclear issue, and of course their background and their experience in the war with Iraq teaches them you want to be as self-sufficient as possible,” Samii said. “But the leadership and people in responsibility know you can’t go it alone. You can’t walk the talk.”

So as I said before, what the president says—doesn’t matter. It’s what the Supreme leader says that matters, and what they want is quite different. Obviously.

Your apology, of course is accepted in advance. Poor Zap’s too.

[quote]100meters wrote:

Zap,
Do you think Bush made a mistake rejecting Iran’s offer?[/quote]

Their offer was obviosly phony. Why in the world would you think they were sincere?