Introduction and First Cycle

Pharma
21

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
kid, run the fucking AI.

We get threads every day about libido problems post cycle and 99% of the time it’s from not managing E on cycle[/quote]

Some say don’t run an AI on your first cycle, just check if you maybe get symptoms of too much water retention or sensitive nipples if you get that then introduce an AI. It’s better to not run an AI if you might not need one.

And then you have some that say just run an AI, better safe than sorry.

Not sure what is wisdom. So much different opinions :slight_smile:

More people that would like to reply to the subject?

Thanks all that have replied until now, btw. Appreciate it.
[/quote]

THERE ARE OTHER NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF HIGH ESTROGEN THAN JUST PUFFY NIPPLES AND WATER RETENTION THAT ARENT SEEN OR FELT.

unless you are going to moniter your blood frequently to make sure you don’t need an AI run the fucking AI.

My advice is to everyone is get bloodwork done before and during and after. Start with a low dose AI, get blood work at about 4-5 weeks in, adjust your dose need be, either increase it a bit or decrease it, get blood work again to see where your at, adjust it again.

If your not gonna get blood work then run a low dose AI anyways.

22

[quote]BUDs wrote:

THERE ARE OTHER NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF HIGH ESTROGEN THAN JUST PUFFY NIPPLES AND WATER RETENTION THAT ARENT SEEN OR FELT.

unless you are going to moniter your blood frequently to make sure you don’t need an AI run the fucking AI.

My advice is to everyone is get bloodwork done before and during and after. Start with a low dose AI, get blood work at about 4-5 weeks in, adjust your dose need be, either increase it a bit or decrease it, get blood work again to see where your at, adjust it again.

If your not gonna get blood work then run a low dose AI anyways.
[/quote]

You’re talking about the cardiovascular aspect of too much estrogen, right?

I can see what you guys mean, yeah.

I’m running an expensive pre-cycle blood test. During cycle I will get an E2 only (maybe get some total T + free T also with it) (saves cash) and then post-cycle the more complete blood test again.

I think I would go for Aromasin 10-12,5mg ED, any suggestions/thought about the frequency, dose?

23

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
kid, run the fucking AI.

We get threads every day about libido problems post cycle and 99% of the time it’s from not managing E on cycle[/quote]

Some say don’t run an AI on your first cycle, just check if you maybe get symptoms of too much water retention or sensitive nipples if you get that then introduce an AI. It’s better to not run an AI if you might not need one.

And then you have some that say just run an AI, better safe than sorry.

Not sure what is wisdom. So much different opinions :slight_smile:

More people that would like to reply to the subject?

Thanks all that have replied until now, btw. Appreciate it.
[/quote]

give me one good reason why you WOULDN’T run an AI?

24

[quote]Yogi wrote:

give me one good reason why you WOULDN’T run an AI?[/quote]

A reason for not running an AI is that you might not need one. Hard to tell that, when it’s the first cycle.
Some say you should only take stuff that you need. AI’s are also extra stress on the liver, lipid profile etc.

The only way to confirm the statement that you don’t need one is testing E2 during cycle. Then decide if you need introduction of AI or not.

That’s the arguments that I’ve found on the net from different people for not running an AI, especially for the first cycle.

25

Oki mother fucker don’t take one then. No one here gives a fuck if you get gyno. Holy shit quit being a pussy

26

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Oki mother fucker don’t take one then. No one here gives a fuck if you get gyno. Holy shit quit being a pussy[/quote]

Please only react if you want to add some information or personal experience into the topic :slight_smile: And by the way I’m not stating that I won’t take one, I’m just telling what others have said about using/not using an AI, all with different arguments, experiences.

27

The guys here know what is said elsewhere. You came here asking for advice, so why would you keep bringing up what ‘others said’? If you came here for advice then take it on board. Doesn’t mean you have to follow it to the letter, but arguing with the very guys you are asking advice from kind of negates the purpose.

This is why new guys get flamed in this forum, because the vets (and I’m not including myself in that, just going form what I have seen in countless threads on here) offer advice for free and then get arguments from new guys who mostly don’t have a clue and are relying on broscience.

Added liver stress from an AI? You are injecting a foreign substance into your body and you are worrying about the tiny addition of stress from an AI? The added liver stress from an AI is tiny, and I guarantee you won’t notice it. Unless you drank way too much in college and have already crippled your liver. Would you rather start with the water weight gain and then have to play catch up, or keep yourself in a better state from day 1, possibly making some small adjustments?

28

Trust me, we all know what other idiots say, yeah you might not need one but of you would rather risk getting gyno instead of taking a low dose ai that will have a miniscule effect if any on lipids and liver then go ahead be my guest. Then to get rid of that gyno you will have to take a higher dose of letro that will make you feel like shit and affect your lipids and liver a lot more or you have to get surgery. So your choice.

29

Added stress to the liver?

How about a hepatic adenoma from high estrogen. Hows that for added stress to the liver

30

[quote]boatguy wrote:
The guys here know what is said elsewhere. You came here asking for advice, so why would you keep bringing up what ‘others said’? If you came here for advice then take it on board. Doesn’t mean you have to follow it to the letter, but arguing with the very guys you are asking advice from kind of negates the purpose.

This is why new guys get flamed in this forum, because the vets (and I’m not including myself in that, just going form what I have seen in countless threads on here) offer advice for free and then get arguments from new guys who mostly don’t have a clue and are relying on broscience.

Added liver stress from an AI? You are injecting a foreign substance into your body and you are worrying about the tiny addition of stress from an AI? The added liver stress from an AI is tiny, and I guarantee you won’t notice it. Unless you drank way too much in college and have already crippled your liver. Would you rather start with the water weight gain and then have to play catch up, or keep yourself in a better state from day 1, possibly making some small adjustments?[/quote]

^X2

I’m new to this forum as well. As far as my reading (which has been a good amount, enough to know I need to continue to learn) has allowed me to understand, Not running an AI from the start is a mistake. Why would you want to flirt with high estrogen? Gyno and puffy nips are just a few of many symptoms and the psychological symptoms are not often spoke of. Depression, fatigue, lack of motivation, no drive at all, lethargy, impotence, insomnia etc. So basically your training and cycle could go to shit.

Worried about your liver? Tylenol is much harder on your liver than an AI and people take it everyday. Alcohol too. As long as your bloodwork is good you shouldnt have a problem.

Its a low risk high reward situation. Be smart.

31

Or fuck take .125 of adex eod or 6.25 aromasin Ed, get blood work at 5 weeks see if you need it!!! 5 weeks of an AI isn’t gonna hurt you or hinder your gains.

Then maybe a few weeks later get E checked again and see if you still don’t need it or you do.

This and only this will tell you if you don’t need one. Until this don’t say you don’t need one

32

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

give me one good reason why you WOULDN’T run an AI?[/quote]

A reason for not running an AI is that you might not need one. Hard to tell that, when it’s the first cycle.
Some say you should only take stuff that you need. AI’s are also extra stress on the liver, lipid profile etc.

The only way to confirm the statement that you don’t need one is testing E2 during cycle. Then decide if you need introduction of AI or not.

That’s the arguments that I’ve found on the net from different people for not running an AI, especially for the first cycle.

[/quote]

think about what you said just there. A GOOD reason to not use one is that you MIGHT not need one? That’s a good reason? Really?

As for added stress on the liver, so you’re cool with BPH, gyno, MPB, hepatitic adenoma, left ventricle hypertrophy, high blood pressure, potential permanent shutdown of your HPTA and a lifetime of having to have TRT, infertility and god damn IMPOTENCE, but a little added stress on the liver is too much?

Kid, just run the AI. Seriously, just do it.

33

[quote]boatguy wrote:
The guys here know what is said elsewhere. You came here asking for advice, so why would you keep bringing up what ‘others said’? If you came here for advice then take it on board. Doesn’t mean you have to follow it to the letter, but arguing with the very guys you are asking advice from kind of negates the purpose.

This is why new guys get flamed in this forum, because the vets (and I’m not including myself in that, just going form what I have seen in countless threads on here) offer advice for free and then get arguments from new guys who mostly don’t have a clue and are relying on broscience.

Added liver stress from an AI? You are injecting a foreign substance into your body and you are worrying about the tiny addition of stress from an AI? The added liver stress from an AI is tiny, and I guarantee you won’t notice it. Unless you drank way too much in college and have already crippled your liver. Would you rather start with the water weight gain and then have to play catch up, or keep yourself in a better state from day 1, possibly making some small adjustments?[/quote]

I came indeed for advice, but that doesn’t mean there is no room for discussion, right? I’m just telling the stuff that makes me think about the subject.

The added liver stress is a reason from the other “no AI camp” to say that you should only take stuff that you don’t need. But it’s all relative of course, taking an oral steroid along the cycle will be more liver toxic of course.

Hehe, luckily I drink a few beers only once per year and I don’t use drugs.

34

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Trust me, we all know what other idiots say, yeah you might not need one but of you would rather risk getting gyno instead of taking a low dose ai that will have a miniscule effect if any on lipids and liver then go ahead be my guest. Then to get rid of that gyno you will have to take a higher dose of letro that will make you feel like shit and affect your lipids and liver a lot more or you have to get surgery. So your choice.[/quote]

Thanks your reaction. I can find myself in this indeed.

35

[quote]Steez wrote:

[quote]boatguy wrote:
The guys here know what is said elsewhere. You came here asking for advice, so why would you keep bringing up what ‘others said’? If you came here for advice then take it on board. Doesn’t mean you have to follow it to the letter, but arguing with the very guys you are asking advice from kind of negates the purpose.

This is why new guys get flamed in this forum, because the vets (and I’m not including myself in that, just going form what I have seen in countless threads on here) offer advice for free and then get arguments from new guys who mostly don’t have a clue and are relying on broscience.

Added liver stress from an AI? You are injecting a foreign substance into your body and you are worrying about the tiny addition of stress from an AI? The added liver stress from an AI is tiny, and I guarantee you won’t notice it. Unless you drank way too much in college and have already crippled your liver. Would you rather start with the water weight gain and then have to play catch up, or keep yourself in a better state from day 1, possibly making some small adjustments?[/quote]

^X2

I’m new to this forum as well. As far as my reading (which has been a good amount, enough to know I need to continue to learn) has allowed me to understand, Not running an AI from the start is a mistake. Why would you want to flirt with high estrogen? Gyno and puffy nips are just a few of many symptoms and the psychological symptoms are not often spoke of. Depression, fatigue, lack of motivation, no drive at all, lethargy, impotence, insomnia etc. So basically your training and cycle could go to shit.

Worried about your liver? Tylenol is much harder on your liver than an AI and people take it everyday. Alcohol too. As long as your bloodwork is good you shouldnt have a problem.

Its a low risk high reward situation. Be smart.[/quote]

Yeah, I know it makes sense.

But the problem I ran into as a new guy with steroids is that a lot of people have different opinions and experience on a specific matter. Same goes for hCG and the use of an AI etc. And most of the new guys including myself don’t know what to do or what would be better health wise or performance enhancing wise, because there are so much different set-ups.

That’s why I made this thread to talk about my set-up and if that goes along some discussion, that’s only good I think.

36

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

give me one good reason why you WOULDN’T run an AI?[/quote]

A reason for not running an AI is that you might not need one. Hard to tell that, when it’s the first cycle.
Some say you should only take stuff that you need. AI’s are also extra stress on the liver, lipid profile etc.

The only way to confirm the statement that you don’t need one is testing E2 during cycle. Then decide if you need introduction of AI or not.

That’s the arguments that I’ve found on the net from different people for not running an AI, especially for the first cycle.

[/quote]

think about what you said just there. A GOOD reason to not use one is that you MIGHT not need one? That’s a good reason? Really?

As for added stress on the liver, so you’re cool with BPH, gyno, MPB, hepatitic adenoma, left ventricle hypertrophy, high blood pressure, potential permanent shutdown of your HPTA and a lifetime of having to have TRT, infertility and god damn IMPOTENCE, but a little added stress on the liver is too much?

Kid, just run the AI. Seriously, just do it.[/quote]

That’s not my argument, but the argument from people that say that you shouldn’t take an AI if you’re not sure if you don’t need one. But the only way to confirm that is taking blood-work :slight_smile:

I know most of the possible side-effects of AAS yes, read articles about it etc.

And some other side-effects on your list are long-term effects from high AAS use, but it’s always good to keep stuff like that in mind to accentuate that using AAS should be taken serious. The difference between use and abuse also plays a role there.

I didn’t know about the possible hepatic adenoma from high estrogen, thanks!

37

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Or fuck take .125 of adex eod or 6.25 aromasin Ed, get blood work at 5 weeks see if you need it!!! 5 weeks of an AI isn’t gonna hurt you or hinder your gains.

Then maybe a few weeks later get E checked again and see if you still don’t need it or you do.

This and only this will tell you if you don’t need one. Until this don’t say you don’t need one [/quote]

Sounds good like a solid plan also indeed to check it.
Thanks for the tip

38

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:
And some other side-effects on your list are long-term effects from high AAS use, but it’s always good to keep stuff like that in mind to accentuate that using AAS should be taken serious. The difference between use and abuse also plays a role there[/quote]

no, any one of those side effects can occur any time depending on your genetics

39

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Iron Mind X wrote:
And some other side-effects on your list are long-term effects from high AAS use, but it’s always good to keep stuff like that in mind to accentuate that using AAS should be taken serious. The difference between use and abuse also plays a role there[/quote]

no, any one of those side effects can occur any time depending on your genetics[/quote]

True, but it isn’t only genetics :slight_smile: Some side-effects are more dose-dependent than others. It will differ from person to person yes, if you get for example male pattern baldness from 500mg test, at 1g AAS or none baldness at all. It’s just the interaction of course.

40

Okay, new plan 2.0

Week 1-12: test-e @ 250mg every 3,5day (500mg/weekly)
Week 1-14): hCG @ 3 x 250iu per week (quit 4-5 days before week 15)
Week 2-14: Arimidex 0,125-0,25mg EOD or Aromasin 6,25-12,5mg ED
Week 15-18: Nolvadex (tamoxifen) @ 20mg ED

I’m not sure at what day of the week I should start the AI, since it takes some time to get the test-e into my body and aromatization. Might wait a 3-5 days before starting with them. Also thinking about what dose would be wise, since it some of the mg are lost because of the first-pass effect of course (as with all oral drugs).

Pre-cycle (2 weeks before cycle starts) I get this whole list of stuff from blood work
During my cycle (week 6-8 of my cycle): only E2 (and free, total test)
Post-cycle (6-8 weeks after PCT, week 18) the whole list again