Intermittent Fasting - Thoughts?

doubleh · February 23, 2011, 4:52pm

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:
what has works for me is lbm x 20 . i start there n go up or down according how fast or slow im gaining . for diet 12 x lbm .[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve used those numbers before on the AD. Another dumb question but might as well ask. I am following the scenario where I lift first thing in AM but don’t eat until noon. I lift at 4:30am though which is earlier than Martin’s example. So I am taking 10 grms bcaas at 4:00, 6:00, 8:00, and 10:00. So I’m taking 40grams instead of his example of 30 grams. Do I coun’t that as 40 grams of protein towards my protein totals or just ignore it? [/quote]

Are you dieting? The one thing I disagree with in Martin’s thinking is fasting beyond PWO. If you’re dieting, yes it will increase fat-burning, but IMO if the goal is to hang on to as much muscle as possible, the PWO feeding window is just too critical to ignore. You will not put on fat in that time period, even eating high-GI carbs (within reason), but not eating can significantly compromise mass gained/retained.

If you are not dieting I see no reason at all to fast PWO.

DJS · February 23, 2011, 6:01pm

Yes I’d like to take some fat off. I’m not in a huge rush but I’d like to get fairly lean by summer time.

Stronghold · February 24, 2011, 2:32am

Xander- Sounds good. I’ve found that the flexibility of IF is awesome when I have to travel.

DJS- same rules apply here as to any other diet wrt caloric intake. While IF may offer some advantageous nutrient partitioning benefits, it’s NOT magical and the main advantages are the increased flexibility and more satisfying meals. Simplest way to set it up is to simply eat all of the food your current plan requires between 2 and 10pm. Since you train very early, do a scoop of Anaconda preworkout, a half scoop of MAG-10 afterwards, and a half scoop again every 3-4 hours until you break your fast. Just throw them all into a nalgene and go about your day until it’s time to eat around 2pm. This is basically what Martin recommends for those who train very early.

Alisa- sounds good. If you want to be really casual with it, what you are talking about sounds good, assuming you have an idea of what and how much you should generally be eating.

lia67 · February 24, 2011, 9:13am

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:
what has works for me is lbm x 20 . i start there n go up or down according how fast or slow im gaining . for diet 12 x lbm .[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve used those numbers before on the AD. Another dumb question but might as well ask. I am following the scenario where I lift first thing in AM but don’t eat until noon. I lift at 4:30am though which is earlier than Martin’s example. So I am taking 10 grms bcaas at 4:00, 6:00, 8:00, and 10:00. So I’m taking 40grams instead of his example of 30 grams. Do I coun’t that as 40 grams of protein towards my protein totals or just ignore it? [/quote]

Are you dieting? The one thing I disagree with in Martin’s thinking is fasting beyond PWO. If you’re dieting, yes it will increase fat-burning, but IMO if the goal is to hang on to as much muscle as possible, the PWO feeding window is just too critical to ignore. You will not put on fat in that time period, even eating high-GI carbs (within reason), but not eating can significantly compromise mass gained/retained.

If you are not dieting I see no reason at all to fast PWO.[/quote]

you should never stay fasted pwo dieting or not . bcaa or whey directly pwo then bcaa’s or whey again every 2 hours until you can have your pwo meal .

lia67 · February 24, 2011, 9:23am

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:
what has works for me is lbm x 20 . i start there n go up or down according how fast or slow im gaining . for diet 12 x lbm .[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve used those numbers before on the AD. Another dumb question but might as well ask. I am following the scenario where I lift first thing in AM but don’t eat until noon. I lift at 4:30am though which is earlier than Martin’s example. So I am taking 10 grms bcaas at 4:00, 6:00, 8:00, and 10:00. So I’m taking 40grams instead of his example of 30 grams. Do I coun’t that as 40 grams of protein towards my protein totals or just ignore it? [/quote]

no dont count bcaa’s towards your total daily protein intake reason being there only bcaa’s where as whole/whey protein etc contains bcaa’s and eaa’s. pwo you could have just whey instead of bcaa’s as the slight insulin spike wont matter pwo due to improved nutrient partitioning and it’ll be a bit cheaper than all those bcaa’s

lia67 · February 24, 2011, 9:38am

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
how intense do you have to be about calorie counting?
I have to eyeball-estimate size, so what I put into fitday is so approximate that it almost isn’t worth doing.
The last time I did an estimate, I was somewhere in the 1300-1600 calorie range, carbs somewhere 50-100 grams, the rest protein & fat.
If I keep eating like that, will that do?
My boyfriend has frequent 800-calorie days but I think that would make me feel ill. [/quote]

why do you have to eyeball cant you weigh stuff or dont have scales . and yes you must monitor cals . even doin a keto or any diet if your not in a deficit you wont lose . a small deficit and slow fat loss is the best way to go as to safe guard muscle , you worked hard to get it so never risk losing it just for the sake of rapid fat loss as any girl can just restrict cals n slim down to look like an insect legged flat arse victoria beckham when she had anorexia , muscle makes you shapy n hot !. 1300 - 1600 sounds about right to lose weight but its very individual try it n see .

doubleh · February 25, 2011, 12:12am

[quote]lia67 wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:
what has works for me is lbm x 20 . i start there n go up or down according how fast or slow im gaining . for diet 12 x lbm .[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve used those numbers before on the AD. Another dumb question but might as well ask. I am following the scenario where I lift first thing in AM but don’t eat until noon. I lift at 4:30am though which is earlier than Martin’s example. So I am taking 10 grms bcaas at 4:00, 6:00, 8:00, and 10:00. So I’m taking 40grams instead of his example of 30 grams. Do I coun’t that as 40 grams of protein towards my protein totals or just ignore it? [/quote]

Are you dieting? The one thing I disagree with in Martin’s thinking is fasting beyond PWO. If you’re dieting, yes it will increase fat-burning, but IMO if the goal is to hang on to as much muscle as possible, the PWO feeding window is just too critical to ignore. You will not put on fat in that time period, even eating high-GI carbs (within reason), but not eating can significantly compromise mass gained/retained.

If you are not dieting I see no reason at all to fast PWO.[/quote]

you should never stay fasted pwo dieting or not . bcaa or whey directly pwo then bcaa’s or whey again every 2 hours until you can have your pwo meal .[/quote]

I agree. Yet Martin Berkhan’s Leangains approach suggests just that. He does NOT say whey, (which, as a whole food, would be considered breaking the fast) is acceptable for PWO AM training. He suggests BCAAs only. I disagree, hence my modification.

DJS · February 25, 2011, 3:27pm

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:
what has works for me is lbm x 20 . i start there n go up or down according how fast or slow im gaining . for diet 12 x lbm .[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve used those numbers before on the AD. Another dumb question but might as well ask. I am following the scenario where I lift first thing in AM but don’t eat until noon. I lift at 4:30am though which is earlier than Martin’s example. So I am taking 10 grms bcaas at 4:00, 6:00, 8:00, and 10:00. So I’m taking 40grams instead of his example of 30 grams. Do I coun’t that as 40 grams of protein towards my protein totals or just ignore it? [/quote]

Are you dieting? The one thing I disagree with in Martin’s thinking is fasting beyond PWO. If you’re dieting, yes it will increase fat-burning, but IMO if the goal is to hang on to as much muscle as possible, the PWO feeding window is just too critical to ignore. You will not put on fat in that time period, even eating high-GI carbs (within reason), but not eating can significantly compromise mass gained/retained.

If you are not dieting I see no reason at all to fast PWO.[/quote]

you should never stay fasted pwo dieting or not . bcaa or whey directly pwo then bcaa’s or whey again every 2 hours until you can have your pwo meal .[/quote]

I agree. Yet Martin Berkhan’s Leangains approach suggests just that. He does NOT say whey, (which, as a whole food, would be considered breaking the fast) is acceptable for PWO AM training. He suggests BCAAs only. I disagree, hence my modification.[/quote]

I’m going to stick with his recomendation to start. If it sucks I’ll change it. I’m going to try less frequency… ie 3 times a week like he sugests which should help. Anyone know what rep range he recomends for squats?

Looks like he does Hernon style reverse pyramids on deadlifts, chins, bench, and squat over 3 days as well as mostly undisclosed assistance excercises. I’ll wing the assistance stuff I supose but curious what his rep range for squats is because I was suprised by his chin recomendation of 4-6 reps. Its nothing I have done before so I’m looking forward to it.

AlisaV · February 25, 2011, 3:39pm

I’m not weighing my food because I eat in a cafeteria. There’s a psychology aspect to this stuff too; I make one change at a time, stick with it, and then see if I can make and sustain more changes. For example, next year I might move to an apartment with a kitchen next year and start cooking for myself (I’ve been avoiding that because I’m not a fan of housework).

I used to count calories, so I have the intuition for how much there is in things. I found that I always optimize for what I measure, so if I have a calorie number staring me in the face, I always try to reduce it. And that puts me in sleepy-land pretty fast. (My body’s response to too little food is always NAPTIME. And it’s impractical for me to spend my life asleep.)

Frankly, I just want to be able to eat until I’m full at night. I’m not convinced that in itself will make weight loss impossible – I’ve known people who’ve done it without the weighing and measuring. If I’m having problems after 6 or 8 weeks, maybe I’ll make some changes.

doubleh · February 25, 2011, 7:54pm

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]DJS wrote:

[quote]lia67 wrote:
what has works for me is lbm x 20 . i start there n go up or down according how fast or slow im gaining . for diet 12 x lbm .[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve used those numbers before on the AD. Another dumb question but might as well ask. I am following the scenario where I lift first thing in AM but don’t eat until noon. I lift at 4:30am though which is earlier than Martin’s example. So I am taking 10 grms bcaas at 4:00, 6:00, 8:00, and 10:00. So I’m taking 40grams instead of his example of 30 grams. Do I coun’t that as 40 grams of protein towards my protein totals or just ignore it? [/quote]

Are you dieting? The one thing I disagree with in Martin’s thinking is fasting beyond PWO. If you’re dieting, yes it will increase fat-burning, but IMO if the goal is to hang on to as much muscle as possible, the PWO feeding window is just too critical to ignore. You will not put on fat in that time period, even eating high-GI carbs (within reason), but not eating can significantly compromise mass gained/retained.

If you are not dieting I see no reason at all to fast PWO.[/quote]

you should never stay fasted pwo dieting or not . bcaa or whey directly pwo then bcaa’s or whey again every 2 hours until you can have your pwo meal .[/quote]

I agree. Yet Martin Berkhan’s Leangains approach suggests just that. He does NOT say whey, (which, as a whole food, would be considered breaking the fast) is acceptable for PWO AM training. He suggests BCAAs only. I disagree, hence my modification.[/quote]

I’m going to stick with his recomendation to start. If it sucks I’ll change it. I’m going to try less frequency… ie 3 times a week like he sugests which should help. Anyone know what rep range he recomends for squats?

Looks like he does Hernon style reverse pyramids on deadlifts, chins, bench, and squat over 3 days as well as mostly undisclosed assistance excercises. I’ll wing the assistance stuff I supose but curious what his rep range for squats is because I was suprised by his chin recomendation of 4-6 reps. Its nothing I have done before so I’m looking forward to it. [/quote]

You can go whole-hog, so to speak, and adopt his training methods too, but there’s no reason to switch routines simply because you’re IFing now. Do what works for you. I’m training roughly the same, although with more complexes/super-setting and shorter rest periods to aid the fat loss.

doubleh · February 25, 2011, 7:58pm

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I’m not weighing my food because I eat in a cafeteria. There’s a psychology aspect to this stuff too; I make one change at a time, stick with it, and then see if I can make and sustain more changes. For example, next year I might move to an apartment with a kitchen next year and start cooking for myself (I’ve been avoiding that because I’m not a fan of housework).

I used to count calories, so I have the intuition for how much there is in things. I found that I always optimize for what I measure, so if I have a calorie number staring me in the face, I always try to reduce it. And that puts me in sleepy-land pretty fast. (My body’s response to too little food is always NAPTIME. And it’s impractical for me to spend my life asleep.)

Frankly, I just want to be able to eat until I’m full at night. I’m not convinced that in itself will make weight loss impossible – I’ve known people who’ve done it without the weighing and measuring. If I’m having problems after 6 or 8 weeks, maybe I’ll make some changes.[/quote]

I don’t think eating until full at night should be a problem. When I first started this, I eased into the diet with a “recomp” phase (calorie waving), and quite frankly it was pretty hard to even get maintenance kclas in on maintenance days - I would get too full just eating in a 7-8 hour window (I actually think this is a little piece of the puzzle as to why the diet works - less intake without ecen knowing it).

If this isn’t the case with you, something is wrong. There’s no way you shouldn’t feel satiated at night.

lia67 · February 25, 2011, 8:16pm

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I’m not weighing my food because I eat in a cafeteria. There’s a psychology aspect to this stuff too; I make one change at a time, stick with it, and then see if I can make and sustain more changes. For example, next year I might move to an apartment with a kitchen next year and start cooking for myself (I’ve been avoiding that because I’m not a fan of housework).

I used to count calories, so I have the intuition for how much there is in things. I found that I always optimize for what I measure, so if I have a calorie number staring me in the face, I always try to reduce it. And that puts me in sleepy-land pretty fast. (My body’s response to too little food is always NAPTIME. And it’s impractical for me to spend my life asleep.)

Frankly, I just want to be able to eat until I’m full at night. I’m not convinced that in itself will make weight loss impossible – I’ve known people who’ve done it without the weighing and measuring. If I’m having problems after 6 or 8 weeks, maybe I’ll make some changes.[/quote]

I don’t think eating until full at night should be a problem. When I first started this, I eased into the diet with a “recomp” phase (calorie waving), and quite frankly it was pretty hard to even get maintenance kclas in on maintenance days - I would get too full just eating in a 7-8 hour window (I actually think this is a little piece of the puzzle as to why the diet works - less intake without ecen knowing it).

If this isn’t the case with you, something is wrong. There’s no way you shouldn’t feel satiated at night.[/quote]

definatley a big piece of the puzzle is feeling alot fuller at the end of my feeding window im actually forcing my self to eat to get my cals in where as with about 6 meals a day i had constant hunger . im not to anal about macs either just hit my protein n not go to overboard with carbs , im really good at eyeballing and estimating cals n macs as are most people that have done this for a goos few years also sticking to similar foods makes tracking macs a doddle.

as for training i do 2 warm up sets , 1st at 50% working weight 2nd at about 60% of working weight then 3rd set in max working weight for 4 to 5 reps ,4th set minus 10% for 6 to 8 reps then last set minus another 10% for about 10 reps . for squats n daeds i ramp as normal .

DJS · February 25, 2011, 8:39pm