Intermittent Fasting: Martin Berkhan

Nutrition
201

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]aidmen wrote:
started the diet today
just had my post workout meal being : 300gr cooked brown rice,100gr turkeybreast,100gr broccoli and some sauce
45min before that i had my shake with 50g waxymaize and 40gr/whey/caseine
was about 50% of my total calorie intake wich is like my previos post said
was thinking now mayby on non worjkout days lowering calories a little to lower fat and carbs
to be around 100gr carbs and 100gr fat
what is your guys oppinion about carb backloading towards the evening?
or do you have another big meal before the fast starts again, also containing complex carbs or just starchy ones?
or you prefer 2 smaller meals like 30-20% of the other calories?
what works best for you?[/quote]

Here’s my experience with it. I tried it after feeling burnt out from a few months of low cal CKD to cut. I felt my metabolism was shot and going 5 days without carbs was killing me.

First you have to know your macros and calorie intake before starting and while doing it. I kept a very strict food log during CKD and during lean gains. When I went over a specific amount of calories I wouldn’t lose anymore fat. Although intitially it did kick start my metabolism and I lost a lb or so of fat after being stalled. It also made life more livable which is another point I would like to make.

I’m not usually hungry in the morning until 2-3 hrs after I wake up, and I don’t crave carbs at all and actually feel pretty sharp mentally and physcially for first half of day without them, so this fit my lifestyle.
Secondly I crave carbs and bigger meals later at night so this also fit my lifestle.

I did have to tweak a few things though. I wake up at 530 am and have first meal around 830am. I workout around noon so I would have 20-25 grms BCAA’s before the workout(I felt it gave me more of an insulin response than the just the 10 grms recommended, which I like before the workout). Originally I would have more BCAA’s after workout and start the eating when I got home around 6pm. Problem was I try to get to bed by 10pm and was too full and uncomfortable for sleep. In addition I have acid reflux (Barrets esophagus) and late night eating and lying down is worse thing you can do. And I couldnt last till noon next day to eat again.

So I changed it around and started the feast post workout and tapered off by 5-6pm. This technically changed my fasting in that it started earlier in the day.
I did not notice a difference in results, and my fasts would only last 14-15 hrs.

Ok to make a long story short the take home message from my experience is that as long as you have a fast which is at least 14 hrs or preferably more and feast only in a short time block(I prefer pre post workout) the plan works fairly well regardless of when you workout or when you eat.
But you do have to keep track of calories regardless. Hope this helps.[/quote]

Are you saying your eating window was from 8:30 am until about 6pm? Forgive me if I’m reading you wrong, but that’s not really IF. If you were having trouble making it until noon to eat, I’m curious as to how long you tried waiting until noon. Due to the entrainment of ghrelin to meal timing, many have an adjustment period where they have some discomfort with the fasting before it goes away. Eating 3 hours after waking isn’t really the point of leangains though. I’m sure you could try to do your feasting period earlier in the day as opposed to later, but it kind of negates the physiological mechanisms by which 16/8 fasting provides benefits.[/quote]

No no lol my feeding wasn’t from 830am to 6. I ate my first meal at 830 which was 3 hrs after I wake up. My last meal is around 4pm which is right after my workout which is my big feast type meal. Then my fast begins till 830am next day. So the way I looked at was that it was around 16 hrs oof fasting on the front end instead of back end if you know waht I mean.[/quote]

Gotcha. Like I said, one of the big benefits of leangains is that it allows you to split your days up into distinct fat burning and muscle building segments, making each more efficient. That’s substantially negated by having the eating window in the first part of the day, but if you can stick to the diet and fast in the evenings, then more power to you. Just not what is generally recommended.

202

I’ve been IFing for the last 8 weeks while trying to lose a bit of bodyfat and I love it. Been eating a 500kcal pro/fat meal at 12, 500kcal peri workout nutrition at 4 and my big post training meal around 7. This usually works out around 1000kcal with higher carbs on leg and back days.

I Usually have a couple of cans of coke zero and 3 or 4 cups of green tea in the morning to stave off any hunger pangs. I dont know whether this has been answered but has anyone seen good results eating like this while trying to gain? After my recomp im considering adding 250kcal to my 12 and 4pm meals and increase this when weight gain stalls.

203

[quote]Austinsprodigy wrote:
I’ve been IFing for the last 8 weeks while trying to lose a bit of bodyfat and I love it. Been eating a 500kcal pro/fat meal at 12, 500kcal peri workout nutrition at 4 and my big post training meal around 7. This usually works out around 1000kcal with higher carbs on leg and back days.

I Usually have a couple of cans of coke zero and 3 or 4 cups of green tea in the morning to stave off any hunger pangs. I dont know whether this has been answered but has anyone seen good results eating like this while trying to gain? After my recomp im considering adding 250kcal to my 12 and 4pm meals and increase this when weight gain stalls. [/quote]

Check out the Leangains website. There is a post called “The Definition of Lean Gains Part 2” that has a pretty impressive example of someone who used the IF 8/16 method to increase LBM while keeping body fat gain to a minimum, maybe even decreasing body fat.

204

@Stronghold…you seem to be pretty knowledgeable in regards to this eating style…so this is directed towards you. As of right now I’m 145lbs approx 11ish% bodyfat…certainly not much mass (attributed to quitting weights and getting into running). In the last month and a half I have put a focus on hard weight training again 4 days a week.

I switched to the LeanGains approach in regards to my style of eating. I follow the guide pretty much by what it says. I have gone from 140lbs to the 145lbs that I have stated above…I do not believe I have gained any bodyfat. This could be attributed to just eating more now though and having food in my stomach the last few times I weighed.

Currently what I’m doing: Training Days (4/week) - 2400kcal: Approx 250-300g carbs, 150-175g protein, Min fat.sometimes as low as 20g.
Non-training (3/week) - 1600-1800kcal: Sub 100g carbs, usually around 60g, high protein as possible, moderate fat…around 50-70g.

I run 2.5 miles on MOST training days as well, fasted in the AM. Sometimes I do this on non-training…but I work a physical job on non-training days…so not always. I do have BCAAs, but I tend to just use them preworkout on training days instead of a preworkout meal (I like to be able to eat as much as possible PWO and later until my window is up). Here are some questions that I have:

  1. Should I account for running on the days I train and therefore add another 200kcal…and eat around 2600kcal on training days that I run?

  2. In regards to running in general…Should I supplement my runs with BCAAs at all…before or after etc? Does this interfere with the fast?

  3. If I’m looking to gain mass and MINIMIZE fat as much as possible (zero hopefully)…should I up my calls on non-training days?

  4. Is there anything unique about this style of eating that it may actually skew the cals in vs out rule. In other words…does IF somehow allow one to eat more above maint. and not gain as much fat in comparison to a 6 meal a day diet, assuming macros are basically the same?

I appreciate your help in advance…P.S. …do you see anything wrong with me eating upwards of 300g of carbs on training days? I do take a GDA (Need2Slin) …not sure if that helps. Thanks man.

205

Woo! this is very useful …
Thanks…

206

Gotcha. Like I said, one of the big benefits of leangains is that it allows you to split your days up into distinct fat burning and muscle building segments, making each more efficient. That’s substantially negated by having the eating window in the first part of the day, but if you can stick to the diet and fast in the evenings, then more power to you. Just not what is generally recommended

Not trying to sound like a jerk,I actually want to learn the science behind it, but what is the difference when you fast? Is it becuase your more active during the day? That would only make a slight differnece in my case cause I have a desk job. The way I looked at it was 16 hrs of no food is 16 hrs of no food and your insulin levels will be low and your body will start burning fat for fuel regardless of time of day. Plus like I mentioned even if it was more effective I can’t eat late at night cause of my acid reflux condition.

207

[quote]ethanwest wrote:

[quote]Austinsprodigy wrote:
I’ve been IFing for the last 8 weeks while trying to lose a bit of bodyfat and I love it. Been eating a 500kcal pro/fat meal at 12, 500kcal peri workout nutrition at 4 and my big post training meal around 7. This usually works out around 1000kcal with higher carbs on leg and back days.

I Usually have a couple of cans of coke zero and 3 or 4 cups of green tea in the morning to stave off any hunger pangs. I dont know whether this has been answered but has anyone seen good results eating like this while trying to gain? After my recomp im considering adding 250kcal to my 12 and 4pm meals and increase this when weight gain stalls. [/quote]

Check out the Leangains website. There is a post called “The Definition of Lean Gains Part 2” that has a pretty impressive example of someone who used the IF 8/16 method to increase LBM while keeping body fat gain to a minimum, maybe even decreasing body fat.[/quote]

I’m a fan of leangains but the only difference I can tell in spencer’s before and after pics are lighting, he’s a lil oiled up, and a pump. He doesn’t look like he gained an ounze and may of just taken the after pics on the same exact day after a workout. Maybe its just me.

208

[quote]facko wrote:
@Stronghold…you seem to be pretty knowledgeable in regards to this eating style…so this is directed towards you. As of right now I’m 145lbs approx 11ish% bodyfat…certainly not much mass (attributed to quitting weights and getting into running). In the last month and a half I have put a focus on hard weight training again 4 days a week.

I switched to the LeanGains approach in regards to my style of eating. I follow the guide pretty much by what it says. I have gone from 140lbs to the 145lbs that I have stated above…I do not believe I have gained any bodyfat. This could be attributed to just eating more now though and having food in my stomach the last few times I weighed.

Currently what I’m doing: Training Days (4/week) - 2400kcal: Approx 250-300g carbs, 150-175g protein, Min fat.sometimes as low as 20g.
Non-training (3/week) - 1600-1800kcal: Sub 100g carbs, usually around 60g, high protein as possible, moderate fat…around 50-70g.

I run 2.5 miles on MOST training days as well, fasted in the AM. Sometimes I do this on non-training…but I work a physical job on non-training days…so not always. I do have BCAAs, but I tend to just use them preworkout on training days instead of a preworkout meal (I like to be able to eat as much as possible PWO and later until my window is up). Here are some questions that I have:

  1. Should I account for running on the days I train and therefore add another 200kcal…and eat around 2600kcal on training days that I run?

  2. In regards to running in general…Should I supplement my runs with BCAAs at all…before or after etc? Does this interfere with the fast?

  3. If I’m looking to gain mass and MINIMIZE fat as much as possible (zero hopefully)…should I up my calls on non-training days?

  4. Is there anything unique about this style of eating that it may actually skew the cals in vs out rule. In other words…does IF somehow allow one to eat more above maint. and not gain as much fat in comparison to a 6 meal a day diet, assuming macros are basically the same?

I appreciate your help in advance…P.S. …do you see anything wrong with me eating upwards of 300g of carbs on training days? I do take a GDA (Need2Slin) …not sure if that helps. Thanks man.[/quote]

If you’ve gained 5 lbs in 4 weeks with no visible fat gain, then by all means, keep doing what you’re doing until it stops doing what it’s been doing! Adjust calories upward as necessary, but everything you’ve got here so far looks good. Don’t be afraid of carbs, just find the level that works best with your body at that current point. From the sounds of things, you’ve got it pinned down pretty well right now. Save the adjustments for when things slow down and you need them.

Leangains may offer some benefits with regards to nutrient partitioning, but it’s not a get out of jail free card to overeat. Thermodynamics still applies, we’re just trying to make the process more efficient.

[quote]as wrote:

Not trying to sound like a jerk,I actually want to learn the science behind it, but what is the difference when you fast? Is it becuase your more active during the day? That would only make a slight differnece in my case cause I have a desk job. The way I looked at it was 16 hrs of no food is 16 hrs of no food and your insulin levels will be low and your body will start burning fat for fuel regardless of time of day. Plus like I mentioned even if it was more effective I can’t eat late at night cause of my acid reflux condition.[/quote]

The difference between basal metabolic rate (resting) and mild activity (working a desk job) is a lot higher than you think it is.

Look at it this way: after you eat, your body is in what is known as the postprandial phase. This means that there is (depending on the content of the meal) high nutrient availability. After the feast, you would ideally want that nutrient intake to contribute as much as possible to tissue repair and recovery rather than simply being used (in place of your existing bodyfat stores) to fuel activity and metabolism. By following the pattern of feasting-fasted awake-fasted asleep, you decrease the utilization of stored fatty acids during the part of the fast with the highest energy demand. If you’re going to do that, then I don’t even really see the benefit in fasting. You would probably be better served by eating fewer, larger meals, spread across your day. That would allow you to have the same satiety and calorie control benefits.

209

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:
@Stronghold…you seem to be pretty knowledgeable in regards to this eating style…so this is directed towards you. As of right now I’m 145lbs approx 11ish% bodyfat…certainly not much mass (attributed to quitting weights and getting into running). In the last month and a half I have put a focus on hard weight training again 4 days a week.

I switched to the LeanGains approach in regards to my style of eating. I follow the guide pretty much by what it says. I have gone from 140lbs to the 145lbs that I have stated above…I do not believe I have gained any bodyfat. This could be attributed to just eating more now though and having food in my stomach the last few times I weighed.

Currently what I’m doing: Training Days (4/week) - 2400kcal: Approx 250-300g carbs, 150-175g protein, Min fat.sometimes as low as 20g.
Non-training (3/week) - 1600-1800kcal: Sub 100g carbs, usually around 60g, high protein as possible, moderate fat…around 50-70g.

I run 2.5 miles on MOST training days as well, fasted in the AM. Sometimes I do this on non-training…but I work a physical job on non-training days…so not always. I do have BCAAs, but I tend to just use them preworkout on training days instead of a preworkout meal (I like to be able to eat as much as possible PWO and later until my window is up). Here are some questions that I have:

  1. Should I account for running on the days I train and therefore add another 200kcal…and eat around 2600kcal on training days that I run?

  2. In regards to running in general…Should I supplement my runs with BCAAs at all…before or after etc? Does this interfere with the fast?

  3. If I’m looking to gain mass and MINIMIZE fat as much as possible (zero hopefully)…should I up my calls on non-training days?

  4. Is there anything unique about this style of eating that it may actually skew the cals in vs out rule. In other words…does IF somehow allow one to eat more above maint. and not gain as much fat in comparison to a 6 meal a day diet, assuming macros are basically the same?

I appreciate your help in advance…P.S. …do you see anything wrong with me eating upwards of 300g of carbs on training days? I do take a GDA (Need2Slin) …not sure if that helps. Thanks man.[/quote]

If you’ve gained 5 lbs in 4 weeks with no visible fat gain, then by all means, keep doing what you’re doing until it stops doing what it’s been doing! Adjust calories upward as necessary, but everything you’ve got here so far looks good. Don’t be afraid of carbs, just find the level that works best with your body at that current point. From the sounds of things, you’ve got it pinned down pretty well right now. Save the adjustments for when things slow down and you need them.

Leangains may offer some benefits with regards to nutrient partitioning, but it’s not a get out of jail free card to overeat. Thermodynamics still applies, we’re just trying to make the process more efficient.

[quote]as wrote:

Not trying to sound like a jerk,I actually want to learn the science behind it, but what is the difference when you fast? Is it becuase your more active during the day? That would only make a slight differnece in my case cause I have a desk job. The way I looked at it was 16 hrs of no food is 16 hrs of no food and your insulin levels will be low and your body will start burning fat for fuel regardless of time of day. Plus like I mentioned even if it was more effective I can’t eat late at night cause of my acid reflux condition.[/quote]

The difference between basal metabolic rate (resting) and mild activity (working a desk job) is a lot higher than you think it is.

Look at it this way: after you eat, your body is in what is known as the postprandial phase. This means that there is (depending on the content of the meal) high nutrient availability. After the feast, you would ideally want that nutrient intake to contribute as much as possible to tissue repair and recovery rather than simply being used (in place of your existing bodyfat stores) to fuel activity and metabolism. By following the pattern of feasting-fasted awake-fasted asleep, you decrease the utilization of stored fatty acids during the part of the fast with the highest energy demand. If you’re going to do that, then I don’t even really see the benefit in fasting. You would probably be better served by eating fewer, larger meals, spread across your day. That would allow you to have the same satiety and calorie control benefits.[/quote]

Oh ok I see now. I just figured it wouldn’t make that much of a difference because we all count the 8 hrs sleep then 8 more hrs upon awakening. I assumed that doing my 4 hrs before bed, plus the 8 hrs sleep and then continuing with the other 4hrs in the morning wouldn’t make a big difference. Thanks for clearing that up.

210

Just wanted to stop by and say I love the IF approach to eating. I started a year to ago at a lanky 140, and bulked up to a ‘soft’ 230 (idk bf%, but soft as in outline of top two abs when relaxed, could see blurry outline of all abs when flexed). I decided in May to cut using this system, and I’m currently a lean 207 (little bit of fat on love handle areas, hopefully that’ll be gone in the upcoming weeks), and dieting has been a lot easier then expected. My strenght on all my lifts as steadily been increasing the whole time (except for bench, though it’s creeping back up now that I’m use to the difference in weight), and judging by pics I haven’t seemed to have lost nearly any muscle mass. FTR, I’d still consider myself a beginner (only about a year or 2 serious, intelligent training and diet), so it’s not a crazy accomplishment. But I did want to pop in and say that for anyone considering this method, it can most definatly work.

211

Thanks Strong for going over that with me man. One question…my window typically is basically 3:30pm-11:30pm…I sometimes don’t “break” the fast until after 3:30pm depending on the day and depending if I’d rather a preworkout meal or BCAAs that day…but I tend to always end my eating by 11:30pm. Tonight is an example where I ate approx. 1200kcal for my PWO meal and had to leave the house…I had to do shit and was unable to eat and didn’t have food with me…I couldn’t get home till around 11:30pm and I proceeded to eat around 750kcal till about midnight. Is it detrimental to extend the eating period upwards of an hour on certain days (due to circumstance) so I can get in all my cals?

I will still follow 16hours atleast without food from the point I stopped eating and attempt to just end my feeding by the usual 11:30pm tomorrow in order to maintain my normal window.

212

[quote]EasyRhino wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
the eating portion in the morning. [/quote]

I don’t think many people try it this way, let us know how it goes.
[/quote]

Hm, I lost track of this thread, not gonna catch up with everything but I figured I’d update since starting IFing a year ago. Regarding above, with doing the eating portion during the first 8 hours instead of the last 8 hours…its awesome. So damn convenient compared to how my life was before. I can go to parties and out with friends and not worry about bringing food and results haven’t suffered in any way.

In fact now I don’t even necessarily stick with the 8 hours (although I usually do), I just have 3 meals. So I may have work for 4pm to 10pm and not want to start the 8 hours from 8am-4pm because I wake up later so I’ll just have a meal at say 11am, 3:30pm and then when I get back from work at 10:30pm. As long as I get the macros in it doesn’t really seem to matter, which like I said has been hugely helpful from a convenience standpoint.

213

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]EasyRhino wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
the eating portion in the morning. [/quote]

I don’t think many people try it this way, let us know how it goes.
[/quote]

Hm, I lost track of this thread, not gonna catch up with everything but I figured I’d update since starting IFing a year ago. Regarding above, with doing the eating portion during the first 8 hours instead of the last 8 hours…its awesome. So damn convenient compared to how my life was before. I can go to parties and out with friends and not worry about bringing food and results haven’t suffered in any way.

In fact now I don’t even necessarily stick with the 8 hours (although I usually do), I just have 3 meals. So I may have work for 4pm to 10pm and not want to start the 8 hours from 8am-4pm because I wake up later so I’ll just have a meal at say 11am, 3:30pm and then when I get back from work at 10:30pm. As long as I get the macros in it doesn’t really seem to matter, which like I said has been hugely helpful from a convenience standpoint. [/quote]

I try to stick to the 8/16 schedule, but I don’t really worry about it too much. The most important thing I took away from IFing is that I don’t need to stress out so much about meal frequency. It’s made social activities a lot easier, as you mentioned. And if I have to extend the feeding window a little bit due to my schedule, I don’t cry myself to sleep over it.

214

I’ve been doing this for three weeks now, and I’m a huge fan so far. I train in the early afternoon and then teach from 6-10 in the evenings, so my eating window is 10-6.

10: breakfast (pretty light)

12:30ish PWO

3:00 meal 1

5:30 meal 2

I haven’t really had any hunger issues, and I feel great…lifts are staying steady/going up while my weight is going down.

215

[quote]facko wrote:
Thanks Strong for going over that with me man. One question…my window typically is basically 3:30pm-11:30pm…I sometimes don’t “break” the fast until after 3:30pm depending on the day and depending if I’d rather a preworkout meal or BCAAs that day…but I tend to always end my eating by 11:30pm. Tonight is an example where I ate approx. 1200kcal for my PWO meal and had to leave the house…I had to do shit and was unable to eat and didn’t have food with me…I couldn’t get home till around 11:30pm and I proceeded to eat around 750kcal till about midnight. Is it detrimental to extend the eating period upwards of an hour on certain days (due to circumstance) so I can get in all my cals?

I will still follow 16hours atleast without food from the point I stopped eating and attempt to just end my feeding by the usual 11:30pm tomorrow in order to maintain my normal window.[/quote]

Yeah, that’s fine. As others have mentioned, you don’t need to stress out too much about the eating window or fasting for longer amounts of time occasionally.

216

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
By following the pattern of feasting-fasted awake-fasted asleep, you decrease the utilization of stored fatty acids during the part of the fast with the highest energy demand. If you’re going to do that, then I don’t even really see the benefit in fasting. You would probably be better served by eating fewer, larger meals, spread across your day. That would allow you to have the same satiety and calorie control benefits.[/quote]

This is interesting. I just started IF a week ago. So far so good.

My eating window is from 12pm to 8pm. Would you advise I push it back a little in order to take advantage of the fat burning properties?

217

[quote]Jack Urboady wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
By following the pattern of feasting-fasted awake-fasted asleep, you decrease the utilization of stored fatty acids during the part of the fast with the highest energy demand. If you’re going to do that, then I don’t even really see the benefit in fasting. You would probably be better served by eating fewer, larger meals, spread across your day. That would allow you to have the same satiety and calorie control benefits.[/quote]

This is interesting. I just started IF a week ago. So far so good.

My eating window is from 12pm to 8pm. Would you advise I push it back a little in order to take advantage of the fat burning properties?

[/quote]

If you get up at 6-7 am, then 12 is fine. If you get up at 11, then you could try pushing it back.

I started with my eating window from 12-8pm and it kind of pushed itself back to 2-10 or so on it’s own.

218

I IF when cutting, and at first didn’t really notice any difference. But I did like the convenience of it, When I am at work, I get hardly any time to eat because my work is customer based and very very busy in the summer. So IF was great because I could fit my meals and workouts around work.

After sticking too it for 2 weeks, I noticed some really good results with fat loss and helped me to get down to 8.53%

I am now coming off it today because I’m going on a bulk for 8 weeks, and then I will turn back to IF after.

219

[quote]Dippers wrote:
I IF when cutting, and at first didn’t really notice any difference. But I did like the convenience of it, When I am at work, I get hardly any time to eat because my work is customer based and very very busy in the summer. So IF was great because I could fit my meals and workouts around work.

After sticking too it for 2 weeks, I noticed some really good results with fat loss and helped me to get down to 8.53%

I am now coming off it today because I’m going on a bulk for 8 weeks, and then I will turn back to IF after.

[/quote]

Ever think of trying IF for bulking? I know some complain that they can’t get that many cals in that short of a time…but honestly, I don’t think people need THAT many cals over like 500 over maint. I don’t seem to ever have problems eating 1500cals in one meal…like 1 box of pasta, 1 lb of fish, veggies, salad, fruit.

220

Yeah I did think about trying it, I recon I could easily fit the calories in as I have a good appetite hehe. I might give it an experiment and see in about 1 months time.

For the first month I will bulk eating without fasting, and record my results. Then go on a IF bulk for 1 month and then compare results to see what worked the best. I will keep to the same foods and calorie range for each experiment and also keep to the same workout routines.

I always update my blog, so if anyone wants to follow they can

http://jondupres.blog.com/my-fitness-goal-for-2011/