Intermittent Fasting: Martin Berkhan

Nutrition
181

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]benmoore wrote:
Been doing this for 3 weeks now on 1800 calories a day and a 300 cal workout shake. I have three big 600 cal shakes over the 8 hours fasting period. [/quote]

  1. if you are having anything during the fasting period, you arent fasting
  2. if you meant feeding, I would not be having 3x600=1800 of my all 1800 cals from shakes
    [/quote]

I meant feeding period - it was a typo. I will correct it now.

The protein shakes are made from:
Protein blend (whey isolate/egg protein/casien protein)
Almond flour
Cinnamon
Water

With each shake I also have some fish oil capsules.

Will also graze on spinach and other green veggies over the eating period.

Other supps:
BCAA’s (1-2 servings of 8g during fasting period if workload is heavy)
Multivitamin/mineral 1-2 daily
Recovery shake (300 cal 2:1 pro:carb mix)

The shakes have been used for compliance reasons. I do often swap the shakes for solid meals however… like a meat + salad with no dressing at a restaurant, etc.

182

alrighty guys, just about to start hrt, and am getting put on a carb cycling diet due to really high cholesterol, but have done a bit of the warrior diet in the past, i was wondering how i would do the lg or warrior diet (WD) with regards to a carb cycling type diet?

would i just move my carbs for that day into the feasting period or do something like what stronghold recommened donklwl do?

thanks for any advice!

j

183

hey guys, just skimmed through this thread. interesting stuff! i’m currently on AD right now, and i was thinking of starting this up when i go back to university in september (of course i’ll have to slowly ease the carbs back in before being able to fast/feast) i was just wondering for all you seasoned IF’ers out there:

  1. are there any organized “cheat/refeed” days in this diet?
  2. how specific do you get in regards to the types of carbs/fats when feasting? (i understand it’s not a good idea to gorge on “unhealthy” foods) just wondering because i live on residence and university cafeterias are not always the most accomodating in terms of “healthy” options"
184

[quote]j2048b wrote:
alrighty guys, just about to start hrt, and am getting put on a carb cycling diet due to really high cholesterol, but have done a bit of the warrior diet in the past, i was wondering how i would do the lg or warrior diet (WD) with regards to a carb cycling type diet?

would i just move my carbs for that day into the feasting period or do something like what stronghold recommened donklwl do?

thanks for any advice!

j[/quote]

You just do exactly what your diet calls for, but instead of 6 meals spread out over 12-14 hours per day, eat it all in 2-4 meals spread across 8 hours. IF is nothing more than not eating for 16 hours and then eating for 8. You can fit any type of diet you want to within that framework. Go nuts.

[quote]ja1991 wrote:
hey guys, just skimmed through this thread. interesting stuff! i’m currently on AD right now, and i was thinking of starting this up when i go back to university in september (of course i’ll have to slowly ease the carbs back in before being able to fast/feast) i was just wondering for all you seasoned IF’ers out there:

  1. are there any organized “cheat/refeed” days in this diet?
  2. how specific do you get in regards to the types of carbs/fats when feasting? (i understand it’s not a good idea to gorge on “unhealthy” foods) just wondering because i live on residence and university cafeterias are not always the most accomodating in terms of “healthy” options"[/quote]
  1. See answer above. It totally depends on you and how you’ve set up your diet. IF is just an eating schedule.
  2. I eat what I want and make it fit my macros. I would say 90% of what I eat is “healthy”, but I’m definitely not off making cream puffs out of cauliflower or whatever. At the end of the day calories and macros are more important than source when it comes to body composition. You’d have to work pretty hard to make the stuff that’s REALLY bad for your health fit into reasonable calorie/macro totals on a regular basis. The idea with all of this is to get away from the neuroticism and OCD food behaviors that tend to plague the fitness crowd, so keep that in mind.
185

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]j2048b wrote:
alrighty guys, just about to start hrt, and am getting put on a carb cycling diet due to really high cholesterol, but have done a bit of the warrior diet in the past, i was wondering how i would do the lg or warrior diet (WD) with regards to a carb cycling type diet?

would i just move my carbs for that day into the feasting period or do something like what stronghold recommened donklwl do?

thanks for any advice!

j[/quote]

You just do exactly what your diet calls for, but instead of 6 meals spread out over 12-14 hours per day, eat it all in 2-4 meals spread across 8 hours. IF is nothing more than not eating for 16 hours and then eating for 8. You can fit any type of diet you want to within that framework. Go nuts.

[quote]ja1991 wrote:
hey guys, just skimmed through this thread. interesting stuff! i’m currently on AD right now, and i was thinking of starting this up when i go back to university in september (of course i’ll have to slowly ease the carbs back in before being able to fast/feast) i was just wondering for all you seasoned IF’ers out there:

  1. are there any organized “cheat/refeed” days in this diet?
  2. how specific do you get in regards to the types of carbs/fats when feasting? (i understand it’s not a good idea to gorge on “unhealthy” foods) just wondering because i live on residence and university cafeterias are not always the most accomodating in terms of “healthy” options"[/quote]
  1. See answer above. It totally depends on you and how you’ve set up your diet. IF is just an eating schedule.
  2. I eat what I want and make it fit my macros. I would say 90% of what I eat is “healthy”, but I’m definitely not off making cream puffs out of cauliflower or whatever. At the end of the day calories and macros are more important than source when it comes to body composition. You’d have to work pretty hard to make the stuff that’s REALLY bad for your health fit into reasonable calorie/macro totals on a regular basis. The idea with all of this is to get away from the neuroticism and OCD food behaviors that tend to plague the fitness crowd, so keep that in mind.[/quote]

thanks stronghold! appreciate the clarification and guidance!

j

186

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]j2048b wrote:
alrighty guys, just about to start hrt, and am getting put on a carb cycling diet due to really high cholesterol, but have done a bit of the warrior diet in the past, i was wondering how i would do the lg or warrior diet (WD) with regards to a carb cycling type diet?

would i just move my carbs for that day into the feasting period or do something like what stronghold recommened donklwl do?

thanks for any advice!

j[/quote]

You just do exactly what your diet calls for, but instead of 6 meals spread out over 12-14 hours per day, eat it all in 2-4 meals spread across 8 hours. IF is nothing more than not eating for 16 hours and then eating for 8. You can fit any type of diet you want to within that framework. Go nuts.

[quote]ja1991 wrote:
hey guys, just skimmed through this thread. interesting stuff! i’m currently on AD right now, and i was thinking of starting this up when i go back to university in september (of course i’ll have to slowly ease the carbs back in before being able to fast/feast) i was just wondering for all you seasoned IF’ers out there:

  1. are there any organized “cheat/refeed” days in this diet?
  2. how specific do you get in regards to the types of carbs/fats when feasting? (i understand it’s not a good idea to gorge on “unhealthy” foods) just wondering because i live on residence and university cafeterias are not always the most accomodating in terms of “healthy” options"[/quote]
  1. See answer above. It totally depends on you and how you’ve set up your diet. IF is just an eating schedule.
  2. I eat what I want and make it fit my macros. I would say 90% of what I eat is “healthy”, but I’m definitely not off making cream puffs out of cauliflower or whatever. At the end of the day calories and macros are more important than source when it comes to body composition. You’d have to work pretty hard to make the stuff that’s REALLY bad for your health fit into reasonable calorie/macro totals on a regular basis. The idea with all of this is to get away from the neuroticism and OCD food behaviors that tend to plague the fitness crowd, so keep that in mind.[/quote]

cool, just wondering about the types of food because i am a big fan of desserts and wouldn’t want to get too carried away. would i be required to follow the 16/8 for 7 days a week or would it be possible to break the fast/feast once a week? lastly, is there some sort of induction phase into this diet or do you just jump straight into the 16/8?

thanks for all the help

187

wanting to give this a try to but having trouble setting up a plan
i want to use it for ‘bulking’ so gaining some mass and weight, not fat
i’m 169lbs at 12% bodyfat now and in the gym they said i should do a 60/25/15 macro but that would be over 450gr carbs each day even on non workout and i already get fat easely so don’t think it’s a good idea
i don’t really know now how my macro’s should be set up on the warrior diet

should it also be 60/25/15 or as stronghold suggests on training days +10%maintenance 3094cal = 418carb/254p/45f what makes it around 54/33/13 macro what makes it almost the same as the other exept now eating most of it in ‘one meal’
and non workout days 2531cal 127c/254p/113f comes TO A 20/40/40 split.

i train around 1030am so don’t really know how to plan the meals than
still wait for the big meal around 7-8pm or a big meal post workout?
i was thinking of a post workout shake of 50gr proteine and 50gr waxy maize and than wait for the feast in the evening?

188

started the diet today
just had my post workout meal being : 300gr cooked brown rice,100gr turkeybreast,100gr broccoli and some sauce
45min before that i had my shake with 50g waxymaize and 40gr/whey/caseine
was about 50% of my total calorie intake wich is like my previos post said
was thinking now mayby on non worjkout days lowering calories a little to lower fat and carbs
to be around 100gr carbs and 100gr fat
what is your guys oppinion about carb backloading towards the evening?
or do you have another big meal before the fast starts again, also containing complex carbs or just starchy ones?
or you prefer 2 smaller meals like 30-20% of the other calories?
what works best for you?

189

[quote]aidmen wrote:
started the diet today
just had my post workout meal being : 300gr cooked brown rice,100gr turkeybreast,100gr broccoli and some sauce
45min before that i had my shake with 50g waxymaize and 40gr/whey/caseine
was about 50% of my total calorie intake wich is like my previos post said
was thinking now mayby on non worjkout days lowering calories a little to lower fat and carbs
to be around 100gr carbs and 100gr fat
what is your guys oppinion about carb backloading towards the evening?
or do you have another big meal before the fast starts again, also containing complex carbs or just starchy ones?
or you prefer 2 smaller meals like 30-20% of the other calories?
what works best for you?[/quote]

Here’s my experience with it. I tried it after feeling burnt out from a few months of low cal CKD to cut. I felt my metabolism was shot and going 5 days without carbs was killing me.

First you have to know your macros and calorie intake before starting and while doing it. I kept a very strict food log during CKD and during lean gains. When I went over a specific amount of calories I wouldn’t lose anymore fat. Although intitially it did kick start my metabolism and I lost a lb or so of fat after being stalled. It also made life more livable which is another point I would like to make.

I’m not usually hungry in the morning until 2-3 hrs after I wake up, and I don’t crave carbs at all and actually feel pretty sharp mentally and physcially for first half of day without them, so this fit my lifestyle.
Secondly I crave carbs and bigger meals later at night so this also fit my lifestle.

I did have to tweak a few things though. I wake up at 530 am and have first meal around 830am. I workout around noon so I would have 20-25 grms BCAA’s before the workout(I felt it gave me more of an insulin response than the just the 10 grms recommended, which I like before the workout). Originally I would have more BCAA’s after workout and start the eating when I got home around 6pm. Problem was I try to get to bed by 10pm and was too full and uncomfortable for sleep. In addition I have acid reflux (Barrets esophagus) and late night eating and lying down is worse thing you can do. And I couldnt last till noon next day to eat again.

So I changed it around and started the feast post workout and tapered off by 5-6pm. This technically changed my fasting in that it started earlier in the day.
I did not notice a difference in results, and my fasts would only last 14-15 hrs.

Ok to make a long story short the take home message from my experience is that as long as you have a fast which is at least 14 hrs or preferably more and feast only in a short time block(I prefer pre post workout) the plan works fairly well regardless of when you workout or when you eat.
But you do have to keep track of calories regardless. Hope this helps.

190

would it be possible to break the fast/feast once a week? also, how do rest days work, does one just continue with the 16/8 fast except with less carbs? and lastly, is there some sort of induction phase into this diet or do you just jump straight into the 16/8?

191

[quote]ja1991 wrote:
would it be possible to break the fast/feast once a week? also, how do rest days work, does one just continue with the 16/8 fast except with less carbs? and lastly, is there some sort of induction phase into this diet or do you just jump straight into the 16/8?[/quote]

If you ask some Lean Gains purists they would probably say you should never break the schedule, however I disagree. The biggest thing I took away from reading that website was that meal timing needs much less emphasis than most people place upon it. I think that as long as your calories and macro’s are in line, it’s alright to break the feeding schedule a little bit.

I follow IF for the most part during the week, but if I am going to lunch with co-workers a bit earlier than normal, I’m not going to worry about it. And if I want to go drinking on Saturday night, I’m obviously extending the feeding scheduled while drinking. It’s not the end of the world.

And, yes I think you just jump into it. You may experience some hunger pains for the first week or so, but they go away after your body gets used to the new meal frequency.

192

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]aidmen wrote:
started the diet today
just had my post workout meal being : 300gr cooked brown rice,100gr turkeybreast,100gr broccoli and some sauce
45min before that i had my shake with 50g waxymaize and 40gr/whey/caseine
was about 50% of my total calorie intake wich is like my previos post said
was thinking now mayby on non worjkout days lowering calories a little to lower fat and carbs
to be around 100gr carbs and 100gr fat
what is your guys oppinion about carb backloading towards the evening?
or do you have another big meal before the fast starts again, also containing complex carbs or just starchy ones?
or you prefer 2 smaller meals like 30-20% of the other calories?
what works best for you?[/quote]

Here’s my experience with it. I tried it after feeling burnt out from a few months of low cal CKD to cut. I felt my metabolism was shot and going 5 days without carbs was killing me.

First you have to know your macros and calorie intake before starting and while doing it. I kept a very strict food log during CKD and during lean gains. When I went over a specific amount of calories I wouldn’t lose anymore fat. Although intitially it did kick start my metabolism and I lost a lb or so of fat after being stalled. It also made life more livable which is another point I would like to make.

I’m not usually hungry in the morning until 2-3 hrs after I wake up, and I don’t crave carbs at all and actually feel pretty sharp mentally and physcially for first half of day without them, so this fit my lifestyle.
Secondly I crave carbs and bigger meals later at night so this also fit my lifestle.

I did have to tweak a few things though. I wake up at 530 am and have first meal around 830am. I workout around noon so I would have 20-25 grms BCAA’s before the workout(I felt it gave me more of an insulin response than the just the 10 grms recommended, which I like before the workout). Originally I would have more BCAA’s after workout and start the eating when I got home around 6pm. Problem was I try to get to bed by 10pm and was too full and uncomfortable for sleep. In addition I have acid reflux (Barrets esophagus) and late night eating and lying down is worse thing you can do. And I couldnt last till noon next day to eat again.

So I changed it around and started the feast post workout and tapered off by 5-6pm. This technically changed my fasting in that it started earlier in the day.
I did not notice a difference in results, and my fasts would only last 14-15 hrs.

Ok to make a long story short the take home message from my experience is that as long as you have a fast which is at least 14 hrs or preferably more and feast only in a short time block(I prefer pre post workout) the plan works fairly well regardless of when you workout or when you eat.
But you do have to keep track of calories regardless. Hope this helps.[/quote]

Are you saying your eating window was from 8:30 am until about 6pm? Forgive me if I’m reading you wrong, but that’s not really IF. If you were having trouble making it until noon to eat, I’m curious as to how long you tried waiting until noon. Due to the entrainment of ghrelin to meal timing, many have an adjustment period where they have some discomfort with the fasting before it goes away. Eating 3 hours after waking isn’t really the point of leangains though. I’m sure you could try to do your feasting period earlier in the day as opposed to later, but it kind of negates the physiological mechanisms by which 16/8 fasting provides benefits.

193

[quote]ja1991 wrote:
would it be possible to break the fast/feast once a week? also, how do rest days work, does one just continue with the 16/8 fast except with less carbs? and lastly, is there some sort of induction phase into this diet or do you just jump straight into the 16/8?[/quote]

It’s possible, but in my experience going back to normal or earlier eating(especially if it’s a high calorie cheat situation) makes the next day annoying with earlier hunger pangs.

Continue with the 16/8, and you treat it the same you would any other diet. Most people take in less calories (via carbs) on off days so if that’s what you have been doing successfully continue with that.

Personally, in my current diet with a heavy fat loss emphasis my off training days are fairly trace carbs(sub 50 for sure) and training days I have about 110 grams from starchy sources and some fruit.

194

thanks ethanwest and Scott M, will keep all of this in mind. i’m currently on the ad for the summer and i figure this type of diet will fit nicely with my school schedule come september.

195

If I think I’m going out or going to be eating later I’ll fast longer that day. So maybe I don’t eat until 2:00 or 3:00 pm. Then at least it somewhat equals out because maybe I’m fasting 18-20 hours on saterday but if your out till midnight or whatever the fast for the next day will be only 12 hours.

I agree on meal timing. Its the least important part. If its Thanksgiving or 4th of July BBQ time, I’m going to fast all the way till that one big meal for the day and then make as many good food decisions as i can while still enjoying myself. Thats the only way to enjoy a day like that without totally wrecking my progress for the week.

Martin said himself that he pushes the fast farther when he goes out. There is no reason you can’t suck it up a bit during the day and fast longer if you have plans that night.

196

Awesome thanks. Hopefully i will be able to suck it up for that couple of extra hours when the time comes. I actually train in the morning, and I understand Martin recommends the use of BCAA’s to stop catabolism and counterproductive training. Would whey pre and post workout suffice as supplementation? Or are the BCAA’s that much of a better option? Just wondering for financial purposes because I’m currently a broke student and supplements do wear out the funds haha.

197

Martin says you can use whey but i have not seen him say how much and I’ve never tried it. I work out very early in the morning and i want my eating period to last long enough for me to eat dinner with my wife and kids.

So… I workout at 4:30am until 5:45 or 6:00am every day but don’t eat for another six hours till noon. I eat till 8:00pm and go to bed at 9:00pm. So I end up taking 30 grms of BCAA a day. 10gs at 4, 6, and 10 am. If somebody tries it out and gets the same results from whey, I could save a lot of money.

198

I guess I’ll be the guinea pig for that one! I’ll let you all know how it goes.

199

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]aidmen wrote:
started the diet today
just had my post workout meal being : 300gr cooked brown rice,100gr turkeybreast,100gr broccoli and some sauce
45min before that i had my shake with 50g waxymaize and 40gr/whey/caseine
was about 50% of my total calorie intake wich is like my previos post said
was thinking now mayby on non worjkout days lowering calories a little to lower fat and carbs
to be around 100gr carbs and 100gr fat
what is your guys oppinion about carb backloading towards the evening?
or do you have another big meal before the fast starts again, also containing complex carbs or just starchy ones?
or you prefer 2 smaller meals like 30-20% of the other calories?
what works best for you?[/quote]

Here’s my experience with it. I tried it after feeling burnt out from a few months of low cal CKD to cut. I felt my metabolism was shot and going 5 days without carbs was killing me.

First you have to know your macros and calorie intake before starting and while doing it. I kept a very strict food log during CKD and during lean gains. When I went over a specific amount of calories I wouldn’t lose anymore fat. Although intitially it did kick start my metabolism and I lost a lb or so of fat after being stalled. It also made life more livable which is another point I would like to make.

I’m not usually hungry in the morning until 2-3 hrs after I wake up, and I don’t crave carbs at all and actually feel pretty sharp mentally and physcially for first half of day without them, so this fit my lifestyle.
Secondly I crave carbs and bigger meals later at night so this also fit my lifestle.

I did have to tweak a few things though. I wake up at 530 am and have first meal around 830am. I workout around noon so I would have 20-25 grms BCAA’s before the workout(I felt it gave me more of an insulin response than the just the 10 grms recommended, which I like before the workout). Originally I would have more BCAA’s after workout and start the eating when I got home around 6pm. Problem was I try to get to bed by 10pm and was too full and uncomfortable for sleep. In addition I have acid reflux (Barrets esophagus) and late night eating and lying down is worse thing you can do. And I couldnt last till noon next day to eat again.

So I changed it around and started the feast post workout and tapered off by 5-6pm. This technically changed my fasting in that it started earlier in the day.
I did not notice a difference in results, and my fasts would only last 14-15 hrs.

Ok to make a long story short the take home message from my experience is that as long as you have a fast which is at least 14 hrs or preferably more and feast only in a short time block(I prefer pre post workout) the plan works fairly well regardless of when you workout or when you eat.
But you do have to keep track of calories regardless. Hope this helps.[/quote]

Are you saying your eating window was from 8:30 am until about 6pm? Forgive me if I’m reading you wrong, but that’s not really IF. If you were having trouble making it until noon to eat, I’m curious as to how long you tried waiting until noon. Due to the entrainment of ghrelin to meal timing, many have an adjustment period where they have some discomfort with the fasting before it goes away. Eating 3 hours after waking isn’t really the point of leangains though. I’m sure you could try to do your feasting period earlier in the day as opposed to later, but it kind of negates the physiological mechanisms by which 16/8 fasting provides benefits.[/quote]

No no lol my feeding wasn’t from 830am to 6. I ate my first meal at 830 which was 3 hrs after I wake up. My last meal is around 4pm which is right after my workout which is my big feast type meal. Then my fast begins till 830am next day. So the way I looked at was that it was around 16 hrs oof fasting on the front end instead of back end if you know waht I mean.

200

i started on leangains may 2011, havent noticed a huge difference. I suppose i am staying leaner than expected with the high amount of calories i am intaking.