It seems like more and more are having this issue. I wonder why. Maybe it’s due to the ester in your T?
Guys have had all kinds of symptoms due to using one ester and after switching to something like the ball cream or grape seed oil they go away.
If I had this issue of sleep I would ask for grape seed. Or something else, but grape seed is probably the least symptomatic of all.
Its possible. I was trying to do some research into which enzyme cleaves the differet esters. the cyp3a enzyme cleaves the cypionate ester it seems. I know this enzyme is reponsible for breaking down many drugs including cialis. I noticed that since starting TRT my cialis is much less effective. I wonder if there is any interaction there.
No clue I’ve never looked into it. That’s a bit of a reach. I would try viagra and switch it up every so often. that’s what I do.
I’ve seen so many over complicate everything with all this research and potential theories and I cannot recall one instance wheee those theories were true: it’s usually a simple reason.
I only got a a little bit in then realised how long the topic was, but did anyone mention the fact that you were struggling with insomnia and anxiety then taking pre-workout?
Caffeine effects me a lot, and now that I’m on TRT I seem more sensitive.
I cut it out completely and one will just about give me anxiety and make me shake.
Also reducing/withdrawing from Mirtazapine will definitely effect your sleep.
I’ve experienced the same exact thing you’re going through. I once went 6 nights without a single second of sleep. I was on my doctors original dosage of 250mg once per week of testosterone cypionate. After 6 months my e was way high and I experienced night panics, and severe anxiety. I went on an Ai, and it brought my e down, but did nothing for my insomnia, anxiety, and panic attacks. I lowered my dosage to 28mg Ed (196 per week), and dropped the ai. Things slowly got better for me. I went on this for over a year, and then it came back. I tried getting back on the ai. I tried adding dim. I tried Benadryl, melatonin, and other over the counter sleep aids. It got worse and worse and worse. I begged my dr for help. He just gave me Xanax, which did help. But I didn’t want to stay on something addictive, and my work wouldn’t allow it. I then went on ambien which also helped, but i was foggy then next day, and I would do sh!t at night I wouldn’t remember. Waking up on the couch naked with food around me was a weird experience. Lol. All my blood showed good, and my dr said it was an anxiety disorder. I believe that I developed an anxiety disorder because of the original panic attacks. But anxiety wasn’t the underlying issue. I finally dropped my test dose to 20mg Ed, and things began to get better. I’ve been good for almost a year now. I think that too high of test in my system became overwhelming to my body. It took a long time for the anxiety to completely go away, because I would get anxious most evenings, wondering if I’d have another panic attack, or if I’d be able to sleep. I’m an anxious person, and always have been. But it finally went away once I got several months of regular sleep. 10 years ago I was on cymbalta, but like you, I hated the emotional numbness I had. Withdrawal from that was horrible. I honestly think you need to simplify your meds. I can’t say whether or not you should be on an antidepressant, but I noticed you have changed things so much that I believe you may have been on the right track, but never gave it enough time. I’d suggest getting rid of as much as you can, and try that for 6 months. Test cypionate ed at like 125 mg a week, so like 17-18 mg daily with no ai. Give it a good 4-6 months and see what transpires. If you feel better try going up a tiny bit, and give it a few months to see what happens. If you get better but not 100%, lower it a bit more and give it more time. Don’t be too worried about high e, unless you have symptoms like sensitivity in your nipples. I feel my best at the high end of normal e levels. I feel a better libido, and my joints are much better. The thing is it takes time. I tried manipulating my other meds, and cutting things like my thyroid meds, no coffee, no this no that, and I jumped all over the place. I’d have a good night, and then think yes I’m on to something. Then it would come back. You can’t make rapid changes or it will be impossible to figure out what’s up. Maybe stick to your antidepressant, and run a low dosage of test Ed for at least 4 months. Give your body a real chance to get acclimated.
PS. When you lay down at night if you get anxiety or panic, or can’t sleep within 30 minutes, get up and go read a book. When you start to get sleepy, go back to bed and try to sleep. If you associate no sleep, anxiety, and panic with your bed, it won’t help anything.
PSS. I also have a messed up nasal passage, and I’ve been told I need surgery too. Nights when my nose is plugged, it would feed my anxiety. I haven’t found a solution to that because I can’t afford the surgery right now, but I do shower an hour before bed, and I rinse my nose out as best I can to help my nose breathing. Also adjust the temp in your bedroom to a fairly cold temperature. I found that sleeping in a cold room helped the anxiety and panic attacks tremendously.
I really hope you can figure this out, because I feel your pain brother. It was one of the worst things I’ve ever experienced. Right now I’m on thyroid meds, and 20mg of test Ed, and I’m finally back to normal. I’ve tried to simplify things. I eat nothing but real food (anything I want, but no processed foods), drink coffee only in the morning, no beer or booze except on rare occasions, no more tobacco, and I would give myself a long time to complete my work outs. Instead of an hour, I do 2 hours. It lets me rest a long time between sets. I know it’s not ideal, but it helped with the head pressure I was experiencing. Now I can hit the gym hard, and feel great.
Good luck, hope you get this whipped.
My generalized thoughts: if you’re not sleeping well, lower your dose.
Many of you are on way way way too high of a dose.
High estrogen completely screws up my sleep.
Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts, very helpful.
Hi @pilchard - I’ve been tracking your health journey since inception. Curious for an update as to how you’ve travelled and where you’re currently at?
@narcissusford Hey, hi there. Really sorry for the late response, I never think to check this forum anymore.
So, it’s been a couple of years now and I’m sorry to say I am no better. I am still battling insomnia, some days are worse than others. I quit mirtazapine in August '22 and all hell broke loose. I literally could not sleep at all… I mean for days at a time and it got to the point where I didn’t want to be here anymore. I developed sleep anxiety where I was absolutely terrified about going to bed. My muscular pain all over my body has never improved either, I thought it could be fibromyalgia, which it could well be but I guess I am just really depressed which in itself can cause aches and pains.
Since then I quit TRT to see if that would make a difference, it was a bit of improvement as I wasn’t “as” stimulated at bedtime but the fatigue and low libido were not good… so I started scrotal cream a few weeks ago, 1 pump sends my T and free T levels soaring, so again not good… I am just waiting for a lower % compound to be sent out to me to try but I cannot say I have ever felt great on TRT so I am considering quitting for good.
Back in 2021 I had some extensive bloodwork done with a German lab, results were a weak positive for Lyme disease and also I had the co infections, so this could definitely be a factor playing into my problems, I am going to be doing a parasite and infection cleanse really soon.
I am now taking 25-30mg of amitriptyline (Elavil), this was prescribed for sleep and pain, I also take a tiny dose of zopiclone, I can nod off now at night but I still cannot stay asleep.
My insomnia problem started in 2017 when I quit SSRI medication, up until that time I could sleep 12 hours a day no problem, I think it was also made worse by TRT, I was constantly stimulated and of course anxiety.
Soooo, not great all in all but I will keep battling, good to hear from you bro!
I’m disappointed to hear that you haven’t identified the root cause and are still experiencing health issues.
Have you tested for auto-immune conditions? Your condition sounds a lot like what many experience from post-viral inflection which has received a lot of air-time in the last few years due to long covid. My insomnia (and other issues) all stemmed from a virus I picked up ~6 years ago. I’m at least 80% better (and most of my recovery came about in the last few years) and key to my recovery was to stop exercising (surprisingly!). Doctors were of very limited help.
I think I recommended the Sleep Book by Guy Meadows to you previously for the anxiety associated with insomnia - it helped me immensely with the psychological elements but obviously won’t fix the physiological contributions. Nonetheless, your sleep issues are entangled by both so sorting out the psychology will give you rest even if the physical impacts continue to present. This was another game-changer for me.
I think your focus on TRT is a little misguided as it does not appear to be aiding you in any meaningful way. What do you think?
I think there definitely could be some kind of post viral thing going on, which is why I am going to do a cleanse. I am working with a practitioner on this.
I am also having CBTi for the sleep issues because I do have sleep anxiety, I just feel stimulated all of the time, worst of all when I am in bed!
Yesterday I lifted some weights and last night I had 3 hours sleep, the exercise seems to really affect my sleep, I am not sure why this is but there is definitely a correlation between exercise and poor sleep. I am interested to hear your thoughts on this as you mentioned part of your recovery was to stop exercising??
My wife wants me to quit TRT and I know she is right, I have never felt good on it and the constant measuring of blood levels has caused so much anxiety for me, but… I just can’t seem to let it go, I am worried about the constant fatigue and low sex drive I experienced pre-TRT, I guess I’ll give the cream a few more weeks before I make the final decision…
Some random ideas…I had to play this game for years.
Try high(er) dose Glycine (5g+) post workout to calm you down & Glycine/Magnesium pre bed. I got the Glycine idea from CT months back.
Workout as early in the AM as possible (4am for me!)…you do not want to be training in the evening if it excites you.
If that doesn’t do much…go to guessing if your issue is low GABA / high Dopamine or high Adrenaline.
For the first…try sleep medication via your doctor, or get melatonin and use a higher end dose. Test and see if you respond to either…which would be more low GABA related.
Next, test taking 2 Anti Histamine tablets (you want the ones that make you drowsy…Benadryl for example) 30 mins pre bed…don’t fucking ask me why (I got it from an ADHD forum months back); but it helps with excess Dopamine issues and getting sleep.
If those don’t work, then you’re onto Adrenaline…try eating/drinking some simple carbs pre bed. Helps lower Cortisol.
You mentioned that the issue started after stopping SSRI.
This reminds me of PSSD (post-ssri sexual dysfunction). It’s not aptly named “syndrome” since sexual dysfunction is usually only one manifestation of it.
What do others think about this?
I will try the glycine idea for sure, although any kind of magnesium before bed makes the insomnia 10 time worse for some reason, I’ve tried most, melatonin also has the opposite effect on me.
I am currently taking 30mg of Elavil and low dose zopiclone but I still cannot stay asleep, its driving me insane, I literally feel like I’m losing my mind!
I always thought it was cardio that shouldn’t be performed in the evening, I thought weight lifting was ok but I’ll certainly bear this in mind, its like the the exhaustion from lifting weights actually keeps me awake, I feel like it spikes something, eyes dilated etc…
Could you recommend a pre bed simple carb drink ?
Low GABA is not your issue then. So toss up between Dopamine and Adrenaline. Try the high(er) dose Glycine post workout today and then the Glycine / Anti Histamines tonight and see if it works.
Re magnesium energizing you…did you ever get blood work showing low levels? For those who are highly deficient, it can have that effect as your body needs it for energy cycles until your levels stabilize. Take it in the AM, until you find that it has a calming effect & the energy boost drops off. Then move it towards the evening → night. Be interesting to see if Glycine triggers a similar effect.
Re training…it increases Cortisol which in turn creates Adrenaline. Working out in the AM matches your normal spike…the later in the evening (closer to bed) is a recipe for being wide awake.
Orange/Apple juice etc is fine…basically you just want simple carbs.
@Voluminous Thanks for your input. I never got a magnesium test so I am unsure if I am deficient or not, I simply took it to see if it would help the insomnia.
I have just ordered a dutch test, as I have never checked “all” my hormones, hopefully it might shed a bit of light as to what is going on…
Re Magnesium: Take it in the am with first 2 meals: 500mg a time. Vit B6 boosts it absorption if you have it handy. When you notice the more relaxing side of it appear, move it to the evening.
Re Glycine: Start with 5mg post workout / pre-bed and see if you seem less “excitable”.
Btw - I’m up to 4 hrs sleep a night with all my testing…so keep testing, you’ll find little bits and pieces that help as you go. Dopamine is my cursed transmitter 
I have not read the whole thread, but as I began to approach 40, I had a hard time sleeping.
Sounds different than what you are experiencing but I’ve had success training early in the day, with Valerian root tea, magnesium and what most would probably consider micro amounts of melatonin.
If I take a valerian supplement or the usual 3mg-10mg commonly recommended melatonin dose, it backfires for me. I might sleep for an hour or two and then I’m tossing and turning all night.
The tea, steeped for about 5 minutes, sedates me enough to fall asleep but isn’t a harsh dose. And I found 1mg sublingual melatonin tabs, which I quarter, and it’s the perfect amount to keep me asleep 6-8 hours after the valerian knocks me out.
I will add that a few months ago I began using Sermorelin and I sleep perfectly, with no other help. It was a side effect to my purpose for it, but has quickly become my favorite aspect of the peptide.
Hi @pilchard - there is a massive thread on another forum (I’m not sure if I can link it here?) about exercise induced insomnia. If you haven’t made the connection between your issues and this condition then you are missing a potentially massive piece of the puzzle. I began to feel significantly better overall, and my sleep improved remarkably, during COVID lockdowns. It only took 2 weeks for me to notice the change in my health. I then realised that the one element that changed during the lockdowns was that I no longer exercised at the gym. My health has continued to improve by cutting out exercise - and when I return to exercise (anything that raises my heart rate) the insomnia and anxiety re-emerge. It’s bizarre an took me a while to accept the connection as the medical profession are adamant that exercise IMPROVES insomnia.
You MUST try this for yourself - no exercise for at least a few weeks. Test it for yourself.