Inflammation : Really that Bad ?

Hello,

I’m reading T-Nation since a long time, and some other websites, such as the one from Jonny Bowden.

It is perfectly clear to me, unlike the title might let you suppose, that inflammation is bad and should be fought : my staple supplements are Flameout and Curcumin.

However I’m wondering if I should add REZ-V to my staple supplements (which is anti-inflammatory as well), because of the following (personal and probably erroneous) thinking :

Isn’t inflammation like pain, too much of it is bad, however none at all is not better ?
Indeed, for the pain, if you don’t suffer at all you won’t remove your hand from a hot surface and your hand will burn, for instance. In the case of a tendinitis, or lesser tendon symptom, too much inflammation is bad because on one hand it hurts, and on the other hand it prevents healing to occur (that’s what I have read). However if by taking too much anti-inflammatory supplements I efficiently suppress inflammations, if (for instance) one tendon is hurt and that I don’t feel it, will it either heal faster, or at the opposite will damage further because I won’t slow down training ?

Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, but I would really appreciate your opinion about this. I’m really wondering to add REZ-V or not to Flameout and Curcumin.

Thanks.
Guillaume.

Sorry this “full body inflammation” talk is all marketing bull**** to me.

Repeat after me: “Rubor, Dolor, Calor, Tumor, Functio lease” those are the signs of inflamation as defined by Celsus 2000 years ago (yes, I know the fifth one was added by Galen much later…) and this knowledged is still taught to thoses studying medicine.
To translate it to more modern terms: Inflamation is the LOCAL realse of cytokines and hormones that leads to swelling, increased temperature and migration of leucoytes into that region. If those hormones (e.g. histamin) and cytokines (e.g. TNF-2) are released systemic (like during a BSI or septic shock) you will most likely die due to cardiac failure. Of course auto-immune diseases are another deal, but even those cause local inflamation (in many places, but still local).

→ Fishoil, Rez-V, etc. etc. all have their benefits but lets not act like we are “in the middle of an inflammation epidemic” (as said in an articel somewhere) or like this supplements act like immunosuppresants or potent antihistaminic drugs.

Concerining your question:
Take as much as said on the lable, not more, reap the benefits but dont be fooled and do your reasarch.

PederLustzo: You seem to be forgetting the fact that chronically elavated inflamatory cytokines leads to chronic inflammation, and this is in fact what you see in overwheight persons and cancer patients. It is very real.

I personally dont think the average person has use for “anti-inflammatory aid”. Instead they should employ tactics to eliminate the factor that increased it in the first place, this being almost always obesity and crappy diet (to little omega-3 for example)

Hmm, you call it a “fact” that otherwhise healty people have chronically elevated cytokine levels I call it a hoax. I have yet to see one study or at least a physiologically sensible argumentation how this local acting substances can become chronically SYSTEMICALY elvated if there isn’t an actual local inflammation.

There have been some interesting studies on suppression of inflammation via NSAIDS as they relate to muscle hypertrophy, recovery, etc.

Such are:

  1. Trappe et al.(2002) Effect of ibuprofen and acetaminophen on postexercise muscle protein synthesis. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. Mar;282 (3):E551-6.

  2. Baldwin, A. (2003) Use of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs following exercise-induced muscle injury. Sports Med. March 33 (3):177-85.

etc…

Many of these studies found that these anti-inflammatory drugs caused significantly (statistically speaking) reduced post exercise protein synthesis, however did not fully suppress protein synthesis.

So, while all of these supplements are NOT NSAIDS and do not have the same properties as these drugs, the suppression of inflammatory responses to training MAY have a negative side effect.

But, frankly, I do not see any reason to avoid resveratrol on this basis. If you have read up on some mice based studies regarding resveratrol and endurance performance, you’ll see that it has a positive effect on at least mice in regard to exercise.

All that being said, I do feel that we often blame inflammation ignorantly, or seem to think that it is only a negative occurrence in the body (which is far from the truth) when chronic inflammation is a symptom rather than a disease in and of itself.

Mid

I have not said that healthy persons have elavated levels of inflammatory cytokines. I have however said that obese individuals have elevated levels of cytokines, my exact quote being “…the fact that chronically elavated inflamatory cytokines leads to chronic inflammation, and this is in fact what you see in overwheight persons and cancer patients.”
What this intails is that large amounts of adipose tissue will work as endocrine tissue and secrete the bad stuff, telling the liver to secrete more bad stuff. It is pretty well established that levels of tnf alpha, il-6 and probably lots more are increased with more body fat, especially the visceral kind, and levels of these, including crp, accordingly increase in obese individuals. This, by the way, correlates nicely with insulin resistance, some cancers and seemingly also to heart disease.

Peder, you need to do more research. Yes local inflammations DO in fact cause systemic rises in inflammatory compounds. In fact, just the other day I was using this phenomenon to track the progress of a patient’s LOCAL infection. You are right that wholebody release of inflammatory cytokines can lead to sepsis/death by high output heart failure. But that is at an absolutely massive level.

To understand why inflammatory molecules might be elevated systemically at relatively low, but clinically significant levels, you need a decent understanding of biochem and immunology. The reason omega 3s work so well is because the body produces four classes of eicosanoids which exert various effects from omega 3 and omega 6 fats. The omega 6 fats lead to pro-inflammatory compounds and the omega 3 fats lead to anti-inflammatory compounds. The ‘healthy’ ratio is 1:1. The typical industrialized nation ratio is 8:1 omega 6 to omega 3 or more. It’s been shown that to be reasonably healthy, you need to achieve an intake ratio of 4:1, but won’t see most effects until 2:1. Unfortunately most omega 3 studies dont use those ratios. But when they do you see startling results. This has been backed up by cross-sectional studies as well, where contrary to expectation, poor asians have lower rates of chronic degenerative disease and cancer than rich asians. Which is because they actually have much closer to natural ratios of n6:n3 intake.

Cytokines on the other hand are produced by cells that exist throughout the body. They are produced throughout are endothelium (like the lining of blood vessels), as well as the macrophages that live there. Not to mention by the circulating immune cells that are everywhere in our blood. Cytokine production can be stimulated by high stress, infection, or pretty much anything that disturbs our homeostasis. There are a couple of different mechanisms by which this might happen, which you can read about in a basic immunology book if you’re interested. In addition, the immune system is held in balance by a number of different systems, one of which is the Th2 cell system. When T suppressor cells are inhibited, you can have elevated levels of circulating (i.e. whole body) inflammatory agents. But suffice it to say that there are very real differences in circulating cytokines between groups. For an example of how this can affect health, google the JUPITER trial, which used the anti-inflammatory properties of statins to show that even in people with normal cholesterol, you can improve heart health by treating those with high levels of circulating inflammatory compounds. There’s also a lot of research on this and diabetes, cancer, skin conditions, allergy/asthma, and mental health. There is even more interesting research on levels of inflammatory compounds in women when pregnant and how their children turn out: autism, asthma/allergy, schizophrenia, and even obesity.

Regarding the OP’s question, no there is nothing to be concerned about. These supplements, while excellent for maintaining health, are not powerful enough to completely shut off the good effects of inflammation. In fact, taking all these supplements probably only restores you to the level of health of our ancestors who had much better diets prior to the industrialization of food production. The resveratrol, omega-3, and curcumin stack would pretty much put you on the same diet as for instance a pre-westernization South or southeast asian. And I’m not sure you know about this or not, but when you control for the effects of modern medicine, south and southeast asians on traditional diets have the lowest rates of chronic illness and disability in the world.

As for COX-1, NSAIDs are a bit different than supplements. The problem with NSAIDs is that they reduce COX-1 function WITHIN MUSCLE. The other compounds will not do this as they won’t be taken into the muscle to any significant degree.

@Nikil Rao & MODOK
I might have been misunderstood here. I was NOT questioning that local inflammation has systemic effects (I’m not that stupid :wink: ). I was only questioning that wrong nutrition and/or habits can lead to such a significant increase of inflammatory mediators that you would get a quantifiable global effect.

Lets take cytokines and cell migration as an example:
IF those increased blood cytokin level indeed did have a systemic effect a biopsy taken from whichever site would show leukocyt infiltration.

Lets take histamin as example for hormonal response:
A systemic elevated histamin would lead to odema, etc. etc.

SO to sum it up, I do know that a local inflamation has systemic effects and never intended to question this on the other hand I do not believe that otherwise healthy people (including those overtly adipose) have chronically elevated levels in inflammatory mediators that cause local inflammation as it has been presented in articles on here.

(Local inflammation → mediators → local/systemic effects: YES
Systemic inflammation in otherwise healthy adults → mediators → local inflammatory effects: NO)

I hope you excuse my language skills as, as you will all have noticed, english is not my primary language.

Hello,

Thanks for all of your answers, very informative to say the least !

Regards,
Guillaume

[quote]PederLustzo wrote:
@Nikil Rao & MODOK
I might have been misunderstood here. I was NOT questioning that local inflammation has systemic effects (I’m not that stupid :wink: ). I was only questioning that wrong nutrition and/or habits can lead to such a significant increase of inflammatory mediators that you would get a quantifiable global effect.

Lets take cytokines and cell migration as an example:
IF those increased blood cytokin level indeed did have a systemic effect a biopsy taken from whichever site would show leukocyt infiltration.

Lets take histamin as example for hormonal response:
A systemic elevated histamin would lead to odema, etc. etc.

SO to sum it up, I do know that a local inflamation has systemic effects and never intended to question this on the other hand I do not believe that otherwise healthy people (including those overtly adipose) have chronically elevated levels in inflammatory mediators that cause local inflammation as it has been presented in articles on here.

(Local inflammation → mediators → local/systemic effects: YES
Systemic inflammation in otherwise healthy adults → mediators → local inflammatory effects: NO)

I hope you excuse my language skills as, as you will all have noticed, english is not my primary language.[/quote]

Peder, take a look at some of the studies about circulating cytokine levels and various disease that I mentioned. Inflammatory mediators do not have all or none effects: you don’t have to see leukocyte/lymphocyte infiltration to have a noticeable biological effect.

Cytokines and other inflammatory mediators have a range of effects including increasing division time, increasing rates of apoptosis, reducing cell protection and repair mechanisms, and slowing rates of protein and DNA/RNA synthesis in ALL cells.

So even without immune cells responding to these elevated levels of inflammatory cytokines, you can have clinically significant changes in a wide range of domains. These will manifest as the kind of chronic, degenerative diseases that have been linked to elevated inflammatory compounds.

Maybe, but this detrimental effects are nowhere near and a “full body inflammation” AND as far as I have learned (to pick up the JUPITER trial example you mentioned) local endothelial degeneration are still a local process which is started by some local event - of course you need a predisposition of some kind for this to happen(e.g. high level of inflammatory mediators, etc.) but you still need an local event.

So again I do not question the detrimental effects of increased cytokine levels but I do believe it is of importance to point out the difference between “increased inflammatory mediator blood levels” and “full body inflammation” (or "inflammaton epidemic), because as far as I know even these increased levels found in e.g. adipose patients are not nearly enough to qualify as inflammation.

Don’t forget about substance P!

This was exact my way of thinking and you are right that this was the source of the misunderstanding that happened here.

The problem is that one gets used to associating certain words with very specific and narrow definitions and seeing exactly these words used “out of context” (to some degree) can cause one to overreact - basically I do not disagree with the basic premise(although as you pointed out the problem is with verifying or falsifying it) but I do disagree with “abusing” vocabulary to make something sound scientific that just (yet) isn’t.

Mr. Poliquin is a prime example of this kind of presentation…