the bow and arrow does not mean horizontal back. This position is used to activate and bring the hamstrings into play. I like the feel of that position as my body feels tight as a single unit.
i tried to get that. did a lot of work on romanian deadlifts (dan john style) with a snatch grip where i aimed to sit my butt back against the wall. then gradually move myself away from the wall and sit my butt back… what i found was that the most tension was generated in my hamstrings (and my butt reached back further) when my back was fairly horizontal. so i figured that was supposed to be second position.
the back would be flat from the first pull which makes no sense as it’s a weak position for the back to be in.
indeed. i had all kinds of trouble getting from the floor to that second position. tried really very hard to get the ‘and push the floor away’ thing but i simply couldn’t get the hang of it. couldn’t clear my knees. couldn’t get into the position i managed at the bottom of a romanian deadlift. tried very hard… got very frustrated…
Anyway, the most important parts for me was the “bow and arrow” position, weight on heels and for the first pull imagining I am trying to push my feet into the ground… I didn’t have to think of hip drive or triple extension as the initial setup did the job and it just worked.
sounds like it worked for you
all i know is that it didn’t work for me
if he was there in person he probably would have put me right about a few things…
i’m just finding that personally i’m having more success with the Everett way of explaining the first pull. Aiming to keep my chest up / hips down and keep my torso as close to the bar as possible… Frog legging the knees enough to get the bar smoothly past… Transitioning my weight from midfoot to heel and contracting lats (to pull the bar back towards me as it leaves the ground).
(That was an eye opener for me. Learning about optimal bar path… You want the bar to move back towards you from the floor…)
Then pull it vertically without letting my ass pop out and up behind me… And when I get that right I don’t need to worry much about hip drive or triple extension, as you say. With a vertical back I"m all set for a vertical hip extension.
It might be that I’m more of a verbal learner and Everett had a nice bunch of text. Whereas Dan John is more suited to visual learners (with his vids). I don’t know…
Seriously, though. Dan John + Ripptoe on squats were an absolute godsend for me. Not sure that I’d be squatting without all their help (Dan John on Goblet Squats and relaxed asian style squats for mobility and Ripptoe on lumbar curve). I really do have a lot of respect for Dan John… But I am starting to take issue with some of what he says (though am happy to admit that I’m wrong because it means I get to learn something!)
i tried to get that. did a lot of work on romanian deadlifts (dan john style) with a snatch grip where i aimed to sit my butt back against the wall. then gradually move myself away from the wall and sit my butt back… what i found was that the most tension was generated in my hamstrings (and my butt reached back further) when my back was fairly horizontal. so i figured that was supposed to be second position.
indeed. i had all kinds of trouble getting from the floor to that second position. tried really very hard to get the ‘and push the floor away’ thing but i simply couldn’t get the hang of it. couldn’t clear my knees. couldn’t get into the position i managed at the bottom of a romanian deadlift. tried very hard… got very frustrated…
i’m just finding that personally i’m having more success with the Everett way of explaining the first pull. Aiming to keep my chest up / hips down and keep my torso as close to the bar as possible… Frog legging the knees enough to get the bar smoothly past… Transitioning my weight from midfoot to heel and contracting lats (to pull the bar back towards me as it leaves the ground).
(That was an eye opener for me. Learning about optimal bar path… You want the bar to move back towards you from the floor…)
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Thinking back, I did have a problem with the flat back but like you realised the bow and arrow position was the second pull position because I was doing power snatching and trying to get the same position in the full snatch was leading to the flat back.
Having the bar mid foot instead of against my shin and dropping my hips allowed me to almost squat the weight up using the quads and by the time the weight came up towards my mid shin area the hamstrings are being kicked into action.
The thing I do like about the bow arrow position is that it teaches what the hamstrings should be feeling in that position when you hit the second pull.
Getting back to the OP, because he is power snatching he should be in a tight position as he lowers the bar pushing the hips bar to clear the knees out of the way of the bar. But, instead he is moving the bar around the knees which will pull him forward and he will lose any “tightness” he had in his body which will kill any explosiveness and limit his weights.
i’ll admit i find it really hard to tell from the vid. i can’t drag it at reduced speed. i also find the angle awkward (it isn’t directly side on).
looks to me that the bar path is pretty vertical rather than moving back from the floor and moving out slightly with hip drive.
rather than
maybe because he isn’t transitioning his weight from the ball to the heel of his foot and contracting the lats at the start of the first pull…
can’t tell if that is because the knees are in the way (so he needs to frog them more) or what. maybe he is aiming for a vertical bar path rather than aiming to get the weight moving back?
