I'm Genuinely Torn Now...Judaism or Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Because of Saul’s defiance, Agag’s line returns generations later, as Haman the Agagite, whose plan is to exterminate the Jews of the Persian Empire. Their savior, of course is Mordecai, who is 10 generations of descent from Kish. Kish was Saul’s father. Thus, within the logic of the Old Testament, Saul’s in is rectified by his descendent, Mordecai, against the descendent of Agag, Haman.[/quote]

Hmmm. So the sins of the fathers are punished to third and fourth generation, but are redeemed by the tenth. Nice symmetry, that. Does that make Mordecai a goel, a moshiah, or both?

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[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Because of Saul’s defiance, Agag’s line returns generations later, as Haman the Agagite, whose plan is to exterminate the Jews of the Persian Empire. Their savior, of course is Mordecai, who is 10 generations of descent from Kish. Kish was Saul’s father. Thus, within the logic of the Old Testament, Saul’s in is rectified by his descendent, Mordecai, against the descendent of Agag, Haman.[/quote]

Hmmm. So the sins of the fathers are punished to third and fourth generation, but are redeemed by the tenth. Nice symmetry, that. Does that make Mordecai a goel, a moshiah, or both?[/quote]

None of the above?
Mordecai and Esther are counted as prophets, by tradition, but I don’t see why. God does not use them as bullhorns, nor does He act directly in the Book of Esther.

As for the sin of the fathers, remember that Saul’s sin is disobedience, and the punishment was loss of the kingdom (and manic-depressive illness); redemption could be Mordecai’s piety and bravery. So was Adam’s sin disobedience, and the punishment is exile from Paradise; redemption is The Law.
There are coincidences only if one is forced to see them.

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In ancient war texts phrases like “we utterly exterminated x and their livestock, women and children” were commonly used to describe a military victory that didn’t necessarily mean there was no more x left or that women and children were involved. To an ancient reader of Joshua this would have been understood when they read “and they utterly exterminated x” and later on "Israel continued to struggle with x along the borders of y till this very day ". Most of the battles were against fortified cities with soldiers that really didn’t contain woman and children.

You may find this video interesting. It beings by talking about the dynamics of old testament slavery as well.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

You could make the oh so reasonable assumption that he was aware of his Hebrew lineage and worshiped accordingly in spite of his house of Pharaoh upbringing. Not so hard to do, eh?

[/quote]

Harder than you might think. See, I’m imagining a Jewish baby, adopted by the daughter of King Farouk, and raised in the royal palace. Which would you say would be more likely? That the boy (whom the princess would have named “Musa”, of course) would be brought up as a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist?

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

I’d like to think the US of A and the rest of the world has not quite sunk to the level of depravity as some of those ancient civilizations if for no other reason than He hasn’t started the genocide again just yet.[/quote]

Well, it’s hard to gauge modern depravity against ancient depravity.

How many Canaanite babies offered up in fiery sacrifice to Moloch versus how many American babies dumped into hospital incinerators?

How many Midianites prostrate before a gleaming idol of Baal versus how many Americans supine before glowing flat-screen televisions?

How many worshippers of Mammon versus how many worshippers of money?

And how bad would Sodom and Gomorrah look, really, if put next to Reno and Las Vegas?

“We must not be so bad, because God hasn’t punished us yet.”

Now there’s a dangerous assumption. All I know is, God works on his own timetable. Who knows what kind of surprise he has cooking up for us. I daresay we just may live to find out.

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I think a global genocide would never happen. As God stated in Genesis, He would never do so again. Now for punishing populations, like He did Sodom and Gomorrah, sure. But I would personally suspect that it would be of a natural disaster type calamity - earthquake, tornado, etc. Something that can still be attributed to not being directly linked to Him.

In the New Testament anyways, I believe the question was asked, if God did exist, why not just show Himself for the world to know. And the answer was that one needs to have faith, and that is why God does not openly make Himself apparent. So in order to hold to this mindset, the devastation would have to not be 100% linkable to a deity. Otherwise non-believers would become believers for no other reason than fear itself.

Probably why God also didn’t bother to give Sodom and Gomorrah a second shot. If you need one, you’re too far gone anyways. Better to choose to be good on your own, than have to have it forced by a greater power.

I don’t know, that’s my guess. I think if the “end times” were to fully come, it wouldn’t matter anyways. At that point, you’ve made your bed, everyone will just be sleeping in whatever they opted to make.

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[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
I think a global genocide would never happen. [/quote]

We’re not talking global genocide, we’re talking America punished for her depravity.

No, he said he’d never do it again with water.

Or it could be attributed to plate tectonics and meteorology. Sodom and Gomorrah would be more like Reno and Vegas engulfed by a sudden spontaneous nuclear fireball.

Ever notice that the more literate a people are, the less likely God is to reveal himself directly to them? Guess that explains why we don’t have any Chinese prophets.

He gave them a second shot. If Abraham could have found just nine other righteous men besides his nephew Lot, the Twin Sin Cities would have been spared.

Guess so. Well, oyasumi nasai.

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[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I’d like to think the US of A and the rest of the world has not quite sunk to the level of depravity as some of those ancient civilizations if for no other reason than He hasn’t started the genocide again just yet.[/quote]

Well, it’s hard to gauge modern depravity against ancient depravity.

How many Canaanite babies offered up in fiery sacrifice to Moloch versus how many American babies dumped into hospital incinerators?

How many Midianites prostrate before a gleaming idol of Baal versus how many Americans supine before glowing flat-screen televisions?

How many worshippers of Mammon versus how many worshippers of money?

And how bad would Sodom and Gomorrah look, really, if put next to Reno and Las Vegas?

“We must not be so bad, because God hasn’t punished us yet.”

Now there’s a dangerous assumption. All I know is, God works on his own timetable. Who knows what kind of surprise he has cooking up for us. I daresay we just may live to find out. [/quote]

The best punishment might just be leaving us to our depravities.

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You’re probably right on the water… I won’t debate that, I thought He said He would never again bring such great devastation. I would consider plate shifts, meteors, etc. all natural disasters (not man-made) but may just be mincing definitions.

I would surmise that God knew before sending Abraham to check that He already knew not that many would be found. After all if He is omniscient, its not too far a stretch for Him to know the answer, and our eventual destiny/demise before it happens. Kind of like keeping pet Sea Monkeys and knowing how they’ll progress when they are in fact living it for the first time.

I have a funny/akward story about o’yasumi nasai, remind me and I’ll share it. Matta ashita!

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[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
You’re probably right on the water… I won’t debate that, I thought He said He would never again bring such great devastation. I would consider plate shifts, meteors, etc. all natural disasters (not man-made) but may just be mincing definitions.[/quote]

Here’s some more meat for the mincer: were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by a natural disaster or a supernatural one?

As to that, I’ve actually read a very compelling hypothesis that postulated that all of the plagues of Egypt are attributable to the eruption of a volcano in Greece.

Then he must have known all along that Adam would eat the Forbidden Fruit. And yet, when Adam hid behind a tree, God couldn’t seem to find him. Incidentally, does God have feet?

Looking forward to hearing it. Oh, by the way, it’s mata (one “t”) ashita. What you said was “I waited tomorrow”, which would be a trick worthy of a Time Lord.

Cheers!

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[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I’d like to think the US of A and the rest of the world has not quite sunk to the level of depravity as some of those ancient civilizations if for no other reason than He hasn’t started the genocide again just yet.[/quote]

Well, it’s hard to gauge modern depravity against ancient depravity.

How many Canaanite babies offered up in fiery sacrifice to Moloch versus how many American babies dumped into hospital incinerators?

How many Midianites prostrate before a gleaming idol of Baal versus how many Americans supine before glowing flat-screen televisions?

How many worshippers of Mammon versus how many worshippers of money?

And how bad would Sodom and Gomorrah look, really, if put next to Reno and Las Vegas?

“We must not be so bad, because God hasn’t punished us yet.”

Now there’s a dangerous assumption. All I know is, God works on his own timetable. Who knows what kind of surprise he has cooking up for us. I daresay we just may live to find out. [/quote]

Different covenants.

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Indeed, sorry on the miss-spelling. I looked at it 3 or 4 times as I typed it. Easier to say than type sometimes, should have just written it in hiragana.

It could have been a natural disaster that destroyed them, but I don’t know what would result in the city becoming a pillar of salt and unable to bear life for some time… sounds akin to a nuclear area. I recall the one island was lost in ash at the eruption of a volcano (forget the name of the island now) but that was ash, not salt, and I don’t believe there are any active volcanoes in Egypt (could be wrong).

I’d be interested to read the volcano theory for the plagues. I assume something along the lines of the volcano drove the frogs and locusts to flee, or a change in temperature/atmosphere caused it. I would question the boils, but it would explain the balls of fire. Death of first born son would be another difficult to prove from volcano.

Yes, you do pose an interesting point with “how far does God’s knowledge / omniscience go?” One could argue that the Adam and Eve case is free will, in which God does not know the choice we will make, whereas the Sodom and Gomorrah is only a “collection of data.” But being unable to “find” Adam in the garden throws that to the wind, because if God knew all, He’d know where Adam was immediately. Don’t have an answer to that one… suppose I’ll have to add that to my laundry list of questions should I ever get to ask them one day, heh.

For the “o’yasumi nasai” story, I’ve made numerous mistakes of saying that to people when bidding them adieu. Just as in English I might say, “have a good night,” so to did I make the mistake of saying it with similar intent to people. I get polite responses, but it took a couple times before I realized the “good night” was for prior to bedtime. Explained some of the giggles/snickers I got in response. I recently went bowling this week after work and after practicing next to two girls and their mother for a few hours, when they went to leave, I mistakenly (habit I’m still trying to break) said o’yasumi nasai. After saying it, it was too late to retract it, so I smiled at the giggles and like a good gaijin played dumb to my mistake.

I’m still learning the greetings/closings. Like how otsukare sama desu seems to have 20 different uses, and every time I think I know all the scenarios it can be used there is one more. The general stuff is fine, but the difficulty is picking up what the Japanese at my apartment say, or every day people say, in order to properly detect how to respond, and sometimes I have to wait for another opportunity to show I can respond appropriately because I have to ask an English speaking Japanese friend to explain it to me. Just the pleasures of being a nub.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:

…But being unable to “find” Adam in the garden throws that to the wind, because if God knew all, He’d know where Adam was immediately. Don’t have an answer to that one… suppose I’ll have to add that to my laundry list of questions should I ever get to ask them one day, heh…

[/quote]

Why do you think God was unable to find Adam?
[/quote]

I don’t think that he was. I was having some fun with Quasi, to see how he would explain Genesis 3:8 and 9. Which is also why I asked if God has feet.

Shhh, I think I hear him coming.

Quasi, I mean. Not God.

EDIT: oh, crap, just noticed you were quoting Quasi’s post, not mine. Carry on.

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Different covenants. [/quote]

Right, but which of God’s many covenants with Man would you say is most applicable to the United States?

God made covenants with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and David, but these were all broken (by man, of course, not by God) and superseded by the New Covenant enumerated in the book of Jeremiah: “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know The Lord’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

A Christian believes that this Covenant was fulfilled in the teachings of Jesus, and sealed with his blood, literally at the crucifixion, and symbolically at the Last Supper. Reading Jeremiah, it seems that this Covenant only applied to the House of Israel, but not so, says a Christian: it applies to all who obey the Law (Gentile and Jew alike), and obey a very simple rule: “a new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”

So with whom has God made his most current Covenant? With all who obey the Law, or just those who take Communion? If the contract is signed by accepting the blood of Christ, then it would seem that the Eucharist is a non-negotiable proviso.

And where does that leave America? Is God’s covenant being kept only by the quarter of the population who are Catholic (or more specifically, the smaller percentage who actually take Communion and obey the Law)?

I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I imagine my Jewish and Protestant friends will have their own opinions.