[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
…
mexicans cannot go and come as they please. earlier you made a comment about communist countries making walls, what about the wall that the U.S. is attempting to build in order to prevent immigrants from crossing the border.
Communist countries build walls to keep people in. The US is building a wall to keep people out.[/quote]
How someone can defend a system that has to fence its people in, I simply do not get it.
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
So Mexicans CHOOSE to migrate to cities and to the north?
Nobody FORCES them, they are looking for a better future in the rich, because moderately capitalist, north.
Mexico`s economy does not seem to have benefitted from NAFTA, but I bet all those Mexicans crossing the border have.
So all in all, the sum of Mexicans may well have experienced growth rates larger than the numbers of Mexico and even those showed an increase in GNP.
If they have used this water they allready paid for it in form of taxes. Just because society pays for something it is not free.
The fact that they now see how much they pay for it will lead to a more efficient use of the precious resource “water”.
Just because society pays for something it is not free.
Once again capitalism helps to protect the environment :-)…
[/quote]
no mexicans do not chose to migrate they are forced to (and when i say north i mean the U.S.). They can either starve to death (this poverty is caused by capitalism)or migrate to look for a way to survive. there is no choice here.
the thousands that have died attempting to cross the border did not benefit from this forced migration.
as far as capitalism protecting the environment, again you must look outside of the U.S. and see what is happening in the rest of the world. it is a fact that U.S. and European corporations escape their countries and go into poor countries in orcer to avoid environmental laws.
remember, capitalism is all about making a profit. people and the environment are secondary.
even adam smith said that the free market would destroy the environment if government regulations were not imposed.
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
…
mexicans cannot go and come as they please. earlier you made a comment about communist countries making walls, what about the wall that the U.S. is attempting to build in order to prevent immigrants from crossing the border.
Communist countries build walls to keep people in. The US is building a wall to keep people out.
How someone can defend a system that has to fence its people in, I simply do not get it.
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
It’s become a commonplace for critics of the wall being built by the United States along the Mexican border to equate it to the Berlin Wall. The same highly negative comparison is evoked in speaking about the Israeli wall being built alongside and through Palestine. Just as the Holocaust is the standard against which acts of mass murder and atrocities are conventionally compared, the Berlin Wall is the standard for judging the erection of a physical barrier which restricts freedom of travel for large numbers of people. The Wall is also employed by conservatives as a symbol of the wickedness and the failure of communism. But what was the Berlin Wall actually about?
During the 1950s, American coldwarriors in West Germany instituted a crude campaign of sabotage and subversion against East Germany designed to throw that country’s economic and administrative machinery out of gear. The CIA and other US intelligence and military services recruited, equipped, trained and financed German activist groups and individuals, of West and East, to carry out actions which ran the spectrum from juvenile delinquency to terrorism; anything to make life difficult for the East German people and weaken their support of the government; anything to make the commies look bad. It was a remarkable undertaking. The United States and its agents used explosives, arson, short circuiting, and other methods to damage power stations, shipyards, canals, docks, public buildings, gas stations, public transportation, bridges, etc; they derailed freight trains, seriously injuring workers; burned 12 cars of a freight train and destroyed air pressure hoses of others; used acids to damage vital factory machinery; put sand in the turbine of a factory, bringing it to a standstill; set fire to a tile-producing factory; promoted work slow-downs in factories; killed 7,000 cows of a co-operative dairy through poisoning; added soap to powdered milk destined for East German schools; were in possession, when arrested, of a large quantity of the poison cantharidin with which it was planned to produce poisoned cigarettes to kill leading East Germans; set off stink bombs to disrupt political meetings; attempted to disrupt the World Youth Festival in East Berlin by sending out forged invitations, false promises of free bed and board, false notices of cancellations, etc.; carried out attacks on participants with explosives, firebombs, and tire-puncturing equipment; forged and distributed large quantities of food ration cards to cause confusion, shortages and resentment; sent out forged tax notices and other government directives and documents to foster disorganization and inefficiency within industry and unions … all this and much more.
Throughout the 1950s, the East Germans and the Soviet Union repeatedly lodged complaints with the Soviets’ erstwhile allies in the West and with the United Nations about specific sabotage and espionage activities and called for the closure of the offices in West Germany they claimed were responsible, and for which they provided names and addresses. Their complaints fell on deaf ears. Inevitably, the East Germans began to tighten up entry into the country from the West.
At the same time, the West was bedeviling the East with a vigorous campaign of recruiting East German professionals and skilled workers, who had been educated at the expense of the Communist government. This eventually led to a serious labor and production crisis in the East.[9]
By August of 1961, the East Germans had had enough. They began the building of their infamous wall. This was not erected to keep their citizens from “truth” or “freedom” – before the wall many Easterners had commuted to the West for jobs each day and then returned to the East in the evening. But in the Cold War atmosphere every possible means of scoring propaganda points was exploited by both sides and thus was born the legend of the Evil Commie Wall.
“Appeasement” is another Cold War myth dredged up recently by the Bush administration in its desperate attempt to find an argument for the Iraq war that more than 30% of the American population will swallow. There’s been more than one occasion of our old friend Rumsfeld labeling as “fascists” anti-American terrorists and those who resist American occupations, and calling Democrats and others not in love with the war “appeasers”;[10] you know, like Britain allowing the Nazis to devour the Czechs in the hope that Hitler would leave the West alone. The appeasement analogy has long been a favorite of American politicians when it suited their purpose; Eisenhower and Johnson both personally used it, to name but two.
But what happened in 1938 in Munich wasn’t so much “appeasement” as it was “collusion”. One of Adolf’s qualities that appealed so much to the West was his fervent anti-communism. Britain, the United States and other Western governments were counting on the Nazis to turn eastward and put an end once and for all to the Bolshevik menace to God, family and capitalism.[11]
If to Donald Rumsfeld opposing the war in Iraq is the moral equivalent of appeasing Hitler, to Condoleezza Rice it’s the moral equivalent of tolerating slavery in 19th century America. Here she is at her desperate best: “I’m sure that there are people who thought that it was a mistake to fight the Civil War to its end and to insist that the emancipation of slaves would hold. I’m sure that there were people who said … why don’t we get out of this now, take a peace with the South, but leave the South with slaves.”[12]
[quote]orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Do the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few when it does not fit into your picture of capitalism?
I would agree with you here except that the definition of need in western society is not the same as in other places in the world. In this country a 16 year old girl “needs” a cell phone.
This is a relatively new phenomenon brought about by comercialization and pop culture. On a regular day she probably could exist without it but the capitalists wouldn’t want her or her friends to beleive that becasue it would cut into their profits. There are many other products I could substitute here.
Do you not see that we in western society no longer have “needs” that conflict with our day-to-day survival?
How is capitalism to blame for creating a society where day-to-day survival is no longer an issue?
I am strongly inclined to see that as a good thing.
So all you have to blame capitalism for is that it takes care of allmost all we can think of, but, given that human beings are what they are, there is still injustice in the world?
What I do not get is your problem with this.
If the whole concept of materialism is alien to you, build a shed in the woods and live there instead of idealizing and glorifying poverty.
If all the naked monkeys want to play with their blinking toys, let them… [/quote]
All that capitalism has given us would be great if not for the very nasty side-effect: making poor people poorer. Yes viewing capitalism thru the monocles of western life it?s easy to see its greatness especially since we are forces to ignore its consequences.
Europeans probably don’t have nearly the issues the US has in terms of uselessness and superfluousness in consumerism. For example, I think they probably actually care about fuel economy over there still…? not about just keeping up with their neighbors in terms of owning stuff. Wait until commercialism catches on a little more. Trade at any expense is not a good value to have in a country.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…[/quote]
Do you truly believe these lies?
My cousins wife escaped from East Berlin.
One of my friends and old co-workers escaped with his family from Poland in the 70’s. He is one of the most brilliant men I know and he abhors communism.
I just don’t know what to say to someone that actually believes what you posted.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…
[/quote]
Holy Shit! I have been mistaken…About everything! Check this out the fucking earth is flat!!!
Who knew?!?!?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
…All that capitalism has given us would be great if not for the very nasty side-effect: making poor people poorer. Yes viewing capitalism thru the monocles of western life it?s easy to see its greatness especially since we are forces to ignore its consequences.
…[/quote]
This is foolish. Poor people have more than ever. And the rich are have a standard of living once reserved for kings and emperors.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…
Do you truly believe these lies?
My cousins wife escaped from East Berlin.
One of my friends and old co-workers escaped with his family from Poland in the 70’s. He is one of the most brilliant men I know and he abhors communism.
I just don’t know what to say to someone that actually believes what you posted.[/quote]
why do you say these are lies? the U.S. and the capitalists definitely had a motive to commit these acts. i would understand if this was the only instance of such U.S. intervention but this is not the case. The U.S. has a very long history of commiting such crimes.
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
if you have a chance to ask him, i would like to hear the reasons why your friend hates communism.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…
Holy Shit! I have been mistaken…About everything! Check this out the fucking earth is flat!!!
Who knew?!?!?[/quote]
i have to assume that the reason you posted this is because you do nat have a valid argument.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…
Do you truly believe these lies?
My cousins wife escaped from East Berlin.
One of my friends and old co-workers escaped with his family from Poland in the 70’s. He is one of the most brilliant men I know and he abhors communism.
I just don’t know what to say to someone that actually believes what you posted.[/quote]
How do you think I feel?
I grew up 100km west of the Iron Curtain.
You have no idea how fast those East Germans were across the border after the Hungarians opened them.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…
Do you truly believe these lies?
My cousins wife escaped from East Berlin.
One of my friends and old co-workers escaped with his family from Poland in the 70’s. He is one of the most brilliant men I know and he abhors communism.
I just don’t know what to say to someone that actually believes what you posted.
why do you say these are lies? the U.S. and the capitalists definitely had a motive to commit these acts. i would understand if this was the only instance of such U.S. intervention but this is not the case. The U.S. has a very long history of commiting such crimes.
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
if you have a chance to ask him, i would like to hear the reasons why your friend hates communism.
[/quote]
Look I grew up near this border.
We could go over there if we liked, yet they could not visit us.
This was a fence that was build after all the talented people started to vote with their feet. If I had felt the need to go over there to sabotage some equipment I probably could have done it, but somehow I never felt like it.
Capitalism seems to work even if it is not “pure” capitalism and even with corrupt governments.
Onve again, how much of an economic system is socialism if it cannot do the same?
An economic system that requires perfect conditions to work properly is worth nothing.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Holy Shit! I have been mistaken…About everything! Check this out the fucking earth is flat!!!
Who knew?!?!?
i have to assume that the reason you posted this is because you do nat have a valid argument.[/quote]
No, I was posting this to mock you.
The Berlin wall was design to keep out the capitolists! That was about the funniest (and dumbest) thing I ever heard. The pictures of all the people hugging and crying with joy as the wall was coming down I supposed was staged? Or the must have been pissed that Germany was finally reunifying?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Europeans probably don’t have nearly the issues the US has in terms of uselessness and superfluousness in consumerism. For example, I think they probably actually care about fuel economy over there still…? not about just keeping up with their neighbors in terms of owning stuff. Wait until commercialism catches on a little more. Trade at any expense is not a good value to have in a country.[/quote]
That was a very polite way of saying that we Europeans are poorer because our governments tax and spend 2/3 of an average workers money .
You are right though with socialised medicine, education, pension schemes and rent and work laws that allmost make the word “property” obsolete, you have very little to worry about “consumerism”.
Did I mention that our social systems and with it our society will break down in 10-15 years and that most people were not able to safe because of the massiv taxation?
Right or left wing dictatorship, what say you?
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the berlin wall was not built to keep people in, it was built for protection from capitalists. i encourage everyone to get thier information from independent media and not corporately owned media. corporately owned media is capitalist media.
Cold War Myths
…
Do you truly believe these lies?
My cousins wife escaped from East Berlin.
One of my friends and old co-workers escaped with his family from Poland in the 70’s. He is one of the most brilliant men I know and he abhors communism.
I just don’t know what to say to someone that actually believes what you posted.
why do you say these are lies? the U.S. and the capitalists definitely had a motive to commit these acts. i would understand if this was the only instance of such U.S. intervention but this is not the case. The U.S. has a very long history of commiting such crimes.
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
if you have a chance to ask him, i would like to hear the reasons why your friend hates communism.
Look I grew up near this border.
We could go over there if we liked, yet they could not visit us.
This was a fence that was build after all the talented people started to vote with their feet. If I had felt the need to go over there to sabotage some equipment I probably could have done it, but somehow I never felt like it.
Capitalism seems to work even if it is not “pure” capitalism and even with corrupt governments.
Onve again, how much of an economic system is socialism if it cannot do the same?
An economic system that requires perfect conditions to work properly is worth nothing.[/quote]
capitalism does not work in spite of corrupt governments. capitalism is a cause of corrupt governments. it is also a cause of corrput media and corrupt corporations.
i am not trying to argue that communism will solve all of the worlds problems, what i am arguing is that capitalism is a cause of many of the worlds problems.
the reason i would argue for communism and not capitalism is that communism is interested in the good of the community(whichever that may be)and capitalism places the interest of the individual first.
[quote]orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Europeans probably don’t have nearly the issues the US has in terms of uselessness and superfluousness in consumerism. For example, I think they probably actually care about fuel economy over there still…? not about just keeping up with their neighbors in terms of owning stuff. Wait until commercialism catches on a little more. Trade at any expense is not a good value to have in a country.
That was a very polite way of saying that we Europeans are poorer because our governments tax and spend 2/3 of an average workers money .
You are right though with socialised medicine, education, pension schemes and rent and work laws that allmost make the word “property” obsolete, you have very little to worry about “consumerism”.
Did I mention that our social systems and with it our society will break down in 10-15 years and that most people were not able to safe because of the massiv taxation?
Right or left wing dictatorship, what say you?[/quote]
i say democracy. a democracy where the people have the power. this is impossible under capitalism.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
i say democracy. a democracy where the people have the power. this is impossible under capitalism.
[/quote]
Left wing then.
Some East German jokes:
Bring socialism to the Sahara and it will run out of sand.
Socialism: the longest and hardest way from capitalism to capitalism.
Ceterum censeo:
No private property, no political freedom.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Holy Shit! I have been mistaken…About everything! Check this out the fucking earth is flat!!!
Who knew?!?!?
i have to assume that the reason you posted this is because you do nat have a valid argument.
No, I was posting this to mock you.
The Berlin wall was design to keep out the capitolists! That was about the funniest (and dumbest) thing I ever heard. The pictures of all the people hugging and crying with joy as the wall was coming down I supposed was staged? Or the must have been pissed that Germany was finally reunifying?[/quote]
according to the information that you have read, why was the berlin wall built?
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
i am not trying to argue that communism will solve all of the worlds problems, what i am arguing is that capitalism is a cause of many of the worlds problems.
the reason i would argue for communism and not capitalism is that communism is interested in the good of the community(whichever that may be)and capitalism places the interest of the individual first.
[/quote]
Aha.
See, this is were we all agree. Capitalism is the source of many of the worlds problems.
It is a bit like Democracy.
Pretty shitty , but the best we came up with so far.
At least noone starves.
Nooow to your second point:
What is a community if not the sum of all individuals?
Is there a “society” which has needs on its own?
How come everytime I want to speak with society I end with someone on the phone who lives off off my money and yet tells me what to do?
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
i say democracy. a democracy where the people have the power. this is impossible under capitalism.
Left wing then.
Some East German jokes:
Bring socialism to the Sahara and it will run out of sand.
Socialism: the longest and hardest way from capitalism to capitalism.
Ceterum censeo:
No private property, no political freedom.[/quote]
are you saying that democracy is the equivalent of left wing dictatorship?
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
i say democracy. a democracy where the people have the power. this is impossible under capitalism.
Left wing then.
Some East German jokes:
Bring socialism to the Sahara and it will run out of sand.
Socialism: the longest and hardest way from capitalism to capitalism.
Ceterum censeo:
No private property, no political freedom.
are you saying that democracy is the equivalent of left wing dictatorship?
[/quote]
Not the equivalent but the road to!
It is in the question: “Do individuals have rights” or are the people the souvereign.?
Without garantueed rights for the individual, Democracies are only tyrannies of the majority.
Since the average voter tends to earn less than the average income it only needs people to start believing that they can also vote on other peoples income or property and you slide in the socialist direction.
Happens in all democracies.
Sure, it won`t work, but that does not bother true believers, they?ll find an excuse why it didn?t.