i say democracy. a democracy where the people have the power. this is impossible under capitalism.
Left wing then.
Some East German jokes:
Bring socialism to the Sahara and it will run out of sand.
Socialism: the longest and hardest way from capitalism to capitalism.
Ceterum censeo:
No private property, no political freedom.
are you saying that democracy is the equivalent of left wing dictatorship?
Not the equivalent but the road to!
It is in the question: “Do individuals have rights” or are the people the souvereign.?
Without garantueed rights for the individual, Democracies are only tyrannies of the majority.
Since the average voter tends to earn less than the average income it only needs people to start believing that they can also vote on other peoples income or property and you slide in the socialist direction.
Happens in all democracies.
Sure, it won`t work, but that does not bother true believers, they?ll find an excuse why it didn?t.[/quote]
are you saying that the rule of an elite few is better than the rule of the majority?
i would have to disagree with this. to me a democracy is a lot more fair than than the tyrany of the rich.
are you saying that the rule of an elite few is better than the rule of the majority?
i would have to disagree with this. to me a democracy is a lot more fair than than the tyrany of the rich.
I say that the government that governs least governs best.
Let the majority decide, but not on my property or income.
If I cannot vote to fuck Jessica Alba nobody can vote on my income or property.
[/quote]
if you are refering to government as a centralized form of power that holds authority over the people then yes i say less is better, in fact i say abolish it altogether.
in its place create a new form of government with no centralization of power were everyone in the community participates and votes. instead of politicians have representatives that do not have any priviledges and receive no financial gain from attaining their post.
i understand that there is no such thing as completely free market capitalism but i think the reason why that is is because the capitalists wont allow it. the capitalists will use the government to increase their profits(patents and other government regulations). this is one of the reasons why capitalism is self destructive.
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
[/quote]
How dare we intervene in National Socialism and in Soviet Socialism! Its all the USA’s fault that those systems have been driven off the planet! They were, at heart, a true paradise for their people.
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
How dare we intervene in National Socialism and in Soviet Socialism! Its all the USA’s fault that those systems have been driven off the planet! They were, at heart, a true paradise for their people.
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!
[/quote]
i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.
Chavez got re-elected with 66 percent of the vote in an election that was certified clean, which is more than you can say for our last election. And suddenly, we don’t love Democracy nearly as much as we thought we did, huh? Chavez is not a Communist by a longshot, he is however, trying to address longstanding inequities in Venezuelan society and bring Venezuela into the 21st Century by reclaiming its natural resources for its rightful owners - the Venezuelans.
The elite of Venezuela hate him, but, like the elite of Cuba, its members are completely unwilling to consider that their own actions and policies might have had something to do with the situation they now find themselves in.
[quote]pookie wrote:
lucasa wrote:
I agree with men being able to amass as much wealth as they want, but I agree with Paine in that no man should be able to establish his family’s wealth in perpetuity.
Actually, I don’t see where Paine is referring to wealth. He’s referring to one man’s rule over others, and I also agree that hereditary rule is not a good idea.
That’s already taken care of with a democratic system. A son might rule as his father did previously, but he still has to win the elections.
As for wealth, why should you be prevented from giving it to whoever you want when you die? It’s often your kids, but you can prepare your will in any way you see fit. If you’re allowed to give it away while you’re alive, why should that change once you’re dead?
[/quote]
The whole point of establishing a hefty estate tax at death was to guard against the establishment of an entrenched aristocracy, which was what most of our ancestors were fleeing when they came here. An entrenched aristocracy will lock up resources, wealth, and opportunity and create the very class system we’ve always prided ourselves on not having.
It will also create many, many more Paris Hiltons. Is that what you want?
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
How dare we intervene in National Socialism and in Soviet Socialism! Its all the USA’s fault that those systems have been driven off the planet! They were, at heart, a true paradise for their people.
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!
i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.[/quote]
are you saying that the rule of an elite few is better than the rule of the majority?
i would have to disagree with this. to me a democracy is a lot more fair than than the tyrany of the rich.
I say that the government that governs least governs best.
Let the majority decide, but not on my property or income.
If I cannot vote to fuck Jessica Alba nobody can vote on my income or property.
if you are refering to government as a centralized form of power that holds authority over the people then yes i say less is better, in fact i say abolish it altogether.
in its place create a new form of government with no centralization of power were everyone in the community participates and votes. instead of politicians have representatives that do not have any priviledges and receive no financial gain from attaining their post.
i understand that there is no such thing as completely free market capitalism but i think the reason why that is is because the capitalists wont allow it. the capitalists will use the government to increase their profits(patents and other government regulations). this is one of the reasons why capitalism is self destructive.[/quote]
If you want a small government that grows weaker the higher it climbs the federal letter, politicians that have little to do and corporations that stay out of politics you are a closet libertarian.
Some of what you describe is utopian but
Switzerland comes pretty close.
No national debt, under 3% unemployment, people who vote on practically everything…
[quote]mcquaidla wrote:
Chavez is not a Communist by a longshot, he is however, trying to address longstanding inequities in Venezuelan society and bring Venezuela into the 21st Century by reclaiming its natural resources for its rightful owners - the Venezuelans.
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
How dare we intervene in National Socialism and in Soviet Socialism! Its all the USA’s fault that those systems have been driven off the planet! They were, at heart, a true paradise for their people.
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!
i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.[/quote]
They were both peaceful and gentle socialist societies. Their concern for such things as human rights and the well-being of their citizens, especially Jewish citizens, is exemplary and well-documented.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
Chavez is not a Communist by a longshot, he is however, trying to address longstanding inequities in Venezuelan society and bring Venezuela into the 21st Century by reclaiming its natural resources for its rightful owners - the Venezuelans.
BULLSHIT[/quote]
How dare those greedy capitalists come in and develop a county’s resources! The natives want to live peacefully in their mudhuts!
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
pat36 wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
Chavez is not a Communist by a longshot, he is however, trying to address longstanding inequities in Venezuelan society and bring Venezuela into the 21st Century by reclaiming its natural resources for its rightful owners - the Venezuelans.
BULLSHIT
How dare those greedy capitalists come in and develop a county’s resources! The natives want to live peacefully in their mudhuts!
[/quote]
They aren’t just developing resources. They are exploiting resources that don’t belong to them for profit…profits for which the indiginous peoples never see. They tear up the land and cause massive pollution; and worse, the greedy leaders of the exploted peoples let them do it as long as it’s bringing in needed money in the their own coffers.
The workers get paid a crummy wages and are forced to sweat and toil all day with no other benefit than the measly wage. Many people are forced into working even though they may have no interest in modern living. Now they can’t farm the land; they can’t do the labor necessary to survive they way they are used to. Their livelyhood has been taken from them all so we can have the products we need.
First of all, there was nothing Socialist about the Nazis except the name, which was crafted to be misleading. Along with the Jews, the disabled, the Gypsies and the Gays, the Nazis made very short of work of the leftists - and that was one reason the German elite was so supportive of Hitler.
Second of all, not everyone dreams of working their entire lives for shit wages so Americans far away can live in McMansions. Strange, but true. And the U.S. has a longstanding reputation for intervening whenever a country attempts to nationalize its resources. A quick and cursory reading of world history in the 20th century might clear up any misconceptions you hold about our foreign policy and for whose benefit it is deployed. With the exception of WW2, our military has pretty much been utilized as a private army to protect the overseas property interests of our richest citizens.
A good place for you to start in your little history adventure would be Iran in 1953, Guatemala around the same time, and then onto Chile in the 70s. Once you’re done, you might want to reconsider all that “crazy” rhetoric coming from Chavez.
But then again, if you’re like most Americans, you won’t do the reading, you won’t reconsider and you won’t take time from your busy day to really consider what it’s like to not be an American and have to deal with us. And then, the next time we’re attacked here or abroad, you’ll cry and scratch your head and wonder why everyone hates us so much…
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The workers get paid a crummy wages and are forced to sweat and toil all day with no other benefit than the measly wage. Many people are forced into working even though they may have no interest in modern living. Now they can’t farm the land; they can’t do the labor necessary to survive they way they are used to. Their livelyhood has been taken from them all so we can have the products we need.
Yeah, capitalism is great for them.[/quote]
And you think they see it now?!
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Chavez just evened it out, now every one makes shitty wages!
[quote]pat36 wrote:
And you think they see it now?!
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Chavez just evened it out, now every one makes shitty wages!
[/quote]
Isn’t that better than letting a foreign country take your resources?
Look at Brazil. They tear up their rain forrest to grow soy for ADM and sell wood to countries that like exotic hardwood cabinets–for pennies. The poor people get to work the land and the rich owners get to profit. Yea, capitalism.
I completely agree. America is an evil exploiter of all the nations of the world! Its a know FACT that the rich got that way by robbing the poor! They never come up with any ideas, developed new markets, or developed a mosquito-infested swamp without a dollar sign attached somewhere. “You should want to help other countries develop without ANY self-interest, you greedy Americans! Come and develop our economies, so we can kick you out by nationalizing all your hard work!”
It is a known fact that the intelligent exist for the benefit of the stupid, the ambitious exist for the benefit of the lazy, and that we’re all here to be slaves to every starving Cambodian or Mexican on the planet!!!
socialism in those countries did not succeed because of U.S. intervention and because the government became corrupt.
How dare we intervene in National Socialism and in Soviet Socialism! Its all the USA’s fault that those systems have been driven off the planet! They were, at heart, a true paradise for their people.
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!
i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.
socialists, all of them…[/quote]
i thought germany was against communism. i dont think nazi germany qualifies as socialist, in fact im certain.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
pat36 wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
Chavez is not a Communist by a longshot, he is however, trying to address longstanding inequities in Venezuelan society and bring Venezuela into the 21st Century by reclaiming its natural resources for its rightful owners - the Venezuelans.
BULLSHIT
How dare those greedy capitalists come in and develop a county’s resources! The natives want to live peacefully in their mudhuts!
[/quote]
no its more like “how dare they steal the countries wealth and leave the people living in poverty”
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I completely agree. America is an evil exploiter of all the nations of the world! Its a know FACT that the rich got that way by robbing the poor! …[/quote]