http://www.gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Cuba-2.htm
Cuba is awsome!
[quote]orion wrote:
Do they believe in it because they are rich or are they rich because they understood how and why it works?
If it is the latter one can hardly blame people that the understand reality better than average people, in fact we need those people and want them rewarded.[/quote]
Quite right. They are rich because they learned how to effectively use the system but they also learned that not everyone can benefit from this system therefore they want everyone to play by the rules of capitalism so that they can be the only winners. Their success in the system feeds the dogma of the system.
The end goal of capitalists isn’t just to have adequate means. It is to rule industry. Just because a system is good at getting results doesn’t mean the end results are good.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
by nature in capitalism one mans gain is another mans loss. capitalism is running its course and it is eliminating the competition and concentrating the wealth.
[/quote]
Most common mistake about “capitalism” or trade in general.
Free trade benefits both, or noone would engage in it.
The rich to not live off the poor, they have to serve them to become and stay rich.
[quote]orion wrote:
The rich to not live off the poor, they have to serve them to become and stay rich.[/quote]
That is “the flaw” in the system. Everyday new poor people are being created–more so than newly rich. This in effect will hurt competition because it reduces the pool of efective consumers. It is a “catch-22”.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
people living under the exploitation of capitalism do live short uncomfortable lives. look at the living standard of poor people in latin america and africa.
…
The poor people in South America and especially Africa are poor because they live under government controlled planned economies, not capitalistic economies.
Capitalism works. Some government intervention is needed to protect the environment and workers rights but I find it amazing that anyone still thinks collectivism and planned economies are better. Even China and Russia have given up on that crap![/quote]
your statement about latin america is completely wrong. latin america has been living under capitalist rule for a very long time, please research the economic history. it is not until recently that governments have taken more control and they have done so because the people are tired of being exploited.
this is an example of what capitalism leads to:
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
by nature in capitalism one mans gain is another mans loss. capitalism is running its course and it is eliminating the competition and concentrating the wealth.
Most common mistake about “capitalism” or trade in general.
Free trade benefits both, or noone would engage in it.
The rich to not live off the poor, they have to serve them to become and stay rich.[/quote]
fair trade benefits both sides, free trade benefits the already wealthy and powerful.
you are saying that the rich have to maintain the poor in a condition to be able to buy and produce. according to your argument under capitalism people cease to exist as human beings and they become consumers and producers.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
i have read your posts and i still dont have a good idea. you said that the cuban government took everything away from your family. i would really like to know what the circumstances were and what excactly happened.
you also said that your family did not have enough money to feed their children but this is not the cause of a socialist government. if the government was the direct cause of this i would really like to know how.
the cuban population in miami is openly against the cuban government and have been know to dissiminate a lot of anti-cuban propaganda. i dont think miami would be the best place to go for information on cuban life.
i do not hate this country, what i am against is the capitalist system.
There is a reason why the government took away my families land and any appreciable wealth my family had, they had it, period. There is no mystery here. It was stolen for the “greater good”.
Also, Miami is exactly the place you should go because these people left everything they had, their families, everything, just to escape the oppresion. This is not propaganda. There people lived though hell and wanted out. Most people get this, you and liftvs obviously do not. Nothing I can say or do will change that. If you want to be oppressed go right ahead. I prefer to bitch about how I can’t afford a steamroom in my house yet.
[/quote]
i researched for myself and i found the link you posted how you forgot to post the entire thing.
http://www.gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Cuba.htm
on that page i founf this:
CAUTION: The following links have been culled from the web to illuminate the situation in Cuba. Some of these links may lead to websites that present allegations that are unsubstantiated or even false. No attempt has been made to verify their authenticity or to validate their content.
how does a steam room better your life or make you a better person? here you are worrying about a steamroom while people are fighting to survive and you dont even bother to learn about their struggles which is the least you can do.
since you abviously have everything you need, or else you wouldnt be worrying about a steam room, why not try to help someone other than yourself.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
by nature in capitalism one mans gain is another mans loss. capitalism is running its course and it is eliminating the competition and concentrating the wealth.
Most common mistake about “capitalism” or trade in general.
Free trade benefits both, or noone would engage in it.
The rich to not live off the poor, they have to serve them to become and stay rich.
fair trade benefits both sides, free trade benefits the already wealthy and powerful.
you are saying that the rich have to maintain the poor in a condition to be able to buy and produce. according to your argument under capitalism people cease to exist as human beings and they become consumers and producers.[/quote]
You cannot exist as a human being without being a consumer.
You can finance your consumption by being a producer or by violently rip off producers.
If capitalism means accepting this, it is no argument against it.
The universe does not owe us a living and if we do not accept that we die.
So what`s your point?
You distinction between “free” and “fair”
trade does not exist, or, which is probably more likely you want it to be unfair to those who allready have money.
That however does not a good deal make…
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
by nature in capitalism one mans gain is another mans loss. capitalism is running its course and it is eliminating the competition and concentrating the wealth.
Most common mistake about “capitalism” or trade in general.
Free trade benefits both, or noone would engage in it.
The rich to not live off the poor, they have to serve them to become and stay rich.
fair trade benefits both sides, free trade benefits the already wealthy and powerful.
you are saying that the rich have to maintain the poor in a condition to be able to buy and produce. according to your argument under capitalism people cease to exist as human beings and they become consumers and producers.
You cannot exist as a human being without being a consumer.
You can finance your consumption by being a producer or by violently rip off producers.
If capitalism means accepting this, it is no argument against it.
The universe does not owe us a living and if we do not accept that we die.
So what`s your point?
You distinction between “free” and “fair”
trade does not exist, or, which is probably more likely you want it to be unfair to those who allready have money.
That however does not a good deal make…
[/quote]
free trade example: 1994 NAFTA comes into effect, small businesses, farmers, fishermen are put out of business and driven into poverty and big transnational corporations get rich. poor get poorer and the rich get richer
example of fair trade: venezuela sells oil to argentina in return for cows.
i agree that we cant avoid consumption (water, food, etc.) and that we must produce in order to replenish what we consume. however, under capitalism the value of human life does not extend beyond that of a consumer and producer. which is why countries are willing to go to war for corporate insterests.
we must also destinguish between comsumption and production necessary to maintain a decent life and consumption and production necessary to turn a profit for a business.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
free trade example: 1994 NAFTA comes into effect, small businesses, farmers, fishermen are put out of business and driven into poverty and big transnational corporations get rich. poor get poorer and the rich get richer
[/quote]
Bullshit.
A FEW fishers and farmers lost their jobs, LOTS and LOTS of consumers and shareholders benefitted.
Do the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few when it does not fit into your picture of capitalism?
It is true that under capitalism you ar only dealt with as a consumer or a producer.
First of all, that is a good thing.
People all over the world can work together no matter what religion, gender, colour of skin, political differences, because they only have to interact as traders.
Second, it is an economic system.
It efficiently deals with our material needs.
What you do with the rest of your life is up to you.
We call that Freedom.
I do not even understand what that means.
A baker produces more bread than he needs, Nokia more cell phones, Boeing produces more airplanes than it needs and then they all trade.
It is called specialisation.
Profit:
You do not understand the nature of it.
The more profit a business generates, the more people are willing to invest in it, providing money for branches of the economy that grow the fastest because consumer demand is the highest.
It is a very efficient tool to allocate financial capital.
It also makes capitalist operations efficient.
The very lack of profits makes socialism unworkable, because its feedback function is gone.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
how does a steam room better your life or make you a better person? here you are worrying about a steamroom while people are fighting to survive and you dont even bother to learn about their struggles which is the least you can do.
since you abviously have everything you need, or else you wouldnt be worrying about a steam room, why not try to help someone other than yourself.
[/quote]
Have you ever suffered? Have you ever suffered to the point where you’re willing to die for a way out? Have you ever been in situation where things were so bad that you were willing to risk losing all or part of your family to obtain freedom because the alternative is worse?
I am guessing not.
My family lived it, many people have lived it. They escaped they rescued themselves from oppression and a misserable life. My family came here with nothing, I mean nothing but the clothes on thier back and my mother pregnent and made a life built with their own to hands. They lost everything they ever knew.
Now your comming at me with this tripe that Cuba ain’t so bad a socialism is a great fucking idea. You have the luxury to sip on a Starbuck and intelectualize how great socialism is in America.
There is plenty of socialism around the world and plenty of miserable people living in it. Go live in one of those horrible places and shut the fuck up.
Thousand of people died trying to escape socialism/communism. Millions and millions have been killed at the hands of socialists/communists. Where it exists they have to build walls to keep people in so they can’t leave, not keep people out 'cause it’s so great.
There is tons of real world empirical evidence showing what a fucking failure it is. You don’t even have to stretch far to connect the dots. You don’t have to intellectualize it, it has been tried backwards and front words and it does not work.
You are disrespectful the the blood and sacrafice of many and that make you beneath contempt.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Communism is a conspiracy against the MIND. The human instinct to avoid change, to stay with the known and familiar, is its basis.
When a thinking individual comes up with a brilliant idea, such as the Internet, it upsets lots of people. For example, you can now buy online, which skips the brick-and-mortar stores and state taxes (in many instances). Those people want the new upstart industry regulated and controlled. Its the same old story — the individual against the collective.
Look at how the internet upsets NBC, CBS, and ABC. Their ratings are plummeting. Newspapers are dead. Those people fight back with government.
Communism is simply FEAR of change carried to extremes in government.
huh?! What does your rambling have to do with a “conspiracy against the mind”? What does that mean anyway?[/quote]
What was unclear? Totalitarianism is the natural outcome of the herd’s fear of change. Individuals who change things, such as people who start new industries, appear as a threat to that herd.
How was that unclear?
[quote]orion wrote:
Do the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few when it does not fit into your picture of capitalism?
[/quote]
I would agree with you here except that the definition of need in western society is not the same as in other places in the world. In this country a 16 year old girl “needs” a cell phone.
This is a relatively new phenomenon brought about by comercialization and pop culture. On a regular day she probably could exist without it but the capitalists wouldn’t want her or her friends to beleive that becasue it would cut into their profits. There are many other products I could substitute here.
Do you not see that we in western society no longer have “needs” that conflict with our day-to-day survival?
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
free trade example: 1994 NAFTA comes into effect, small businesses, farmers, fishermen are put out of business and driven into poverty and big transnational corporations get rich. poor get poorer and the rich get richer
Bullshit.
A FEW fishers and farmers lost their jobs, LOTS and LOTS of consumers and shareholders benefitted.
Do the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few when it does not fit into your picture of capitalism?
example of fair trade: venezuela sells oil to argentina in return for cows.
i agree that we cant avoid consumption (water, food, etc.) and that we must produce in order to replenish what we consume. however, under capitalism the value of human life does not extend beyond that of a consumer and producer. which is why countries are willing to go to war for corporate insterests.
It is true that under capitalism you ar only dealt with as a consumer or a producer.
First of all, that is a good thing.
People all over the world can work together no matter what religion, gender, colour of skin, political differences, because they only have to interact as traders.
Second, it is an economic system.
It efficiently deals with our material needs.
What you do with the rest of your life is up to you.
We call that Freedom.
we must also destinguish between comsumption and production necessary to maintain a decent life and consumption and production necessary to turn a profit for a business.
I do not even understand what that means.
A baker produces more bread than he needs, Nokia more cell phones, Boeing produces more airplanes than it needs and then they all trade.
It is called specialisation.
Profit:
You do not understand the nature of it.
The more profit a business generates, the more people are willing to invest in it, providing money for branches of the economy that grow the fastest because consumer demand is the highest.
It is a very efficient tool to allocate financial capital.
It also makes capitalist operations efficient.
The very lack of profits makes socialism unworkable, because its feedback function is gone. [/quote]
the statement that NAFTA has enriched the rich and impoverished the poor is not bullshit. NAFTA has had its most negative effect on Mexico, the poorest of the three nations involved. it has forced people to leave rural areas and go into cities to look for jobs or migrate to the north. i see absolutely no freedom in that.
NAFTA was supposed to send Mexico into the first world. instead poverty has increased and more people are migrating north.
capitalism impedes on freedom, for example when transnational corporations privatize natural water sources in Mexico and force people who have used that water for many years to start paying for it.
why are countries so rich in natural resources, such as Mexico and a lot of latin america, so poor. it is because of capitalism.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Have you ever suffered? Have you ever suffered to the point where you’re willing to die for a way out? Have you ever been in situation where things were so bad that you were willing to risk losing all or part of your family to obtain freedom because the alternative is worse?
I am guessing not.
My family lived it, many people have lived it. They escaped they rescued themselves from oppression and a misserable life. My family came here with nothing, I mean nothing but the clothes on thier back and my mother pregnent and made a life built with their own to hands. They lost everything they ever knew.
Now your comming at me with this tripe that Cuba ain’t so bad a socialism is a great fucking idea. You have the luxury to sip on a Starbuck and intelectualize how great socialism is in America.
There is plenty of socialism around the world and plenty of miserable people living in it. Go live in one of those horrible places and shut the fuck up.
Thousand of people died trying to escape socialism/communism. Millions and millions have been killed at the hands of socialists/communists. Where it exists they have to build walls to keep people in so they can’t leave, not keep people out 'cause it’s so great.
There is tons of real world empirical evidence showing what a fucking failure it is. You don’t even have to stretch far to connect the dots. You don’t have to intellectualize it, it has been tried backwards and front words and it does not work.
You are disrespectful the the blood and sacrafice of many and that make you beneath contempt. [/quote]
a lot of people leave their country in search for better lives, not just cubans. people from all over the world migrate to north america and its not just people that live in socialist countries.
for example, people in mexico migrate to the U.S. because their country has been impoverished by capitalist policies. i would also like to add that people in mexico suffer greater violations of human rights than the cuban people yet it is not reported in the news because Mexico allows the U.S. to exploit it, which is something that cuba refuses to do.
your first paragraph describes excactly how people in mexico feel and this is why the zapatistas rose up in arms and are currently fighting against capitalism.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
a lot of people leave their country in search for better lives, not just cubans. people from all over the world migrate to north america and its not just people that live in socialist countries.
for example, people in mexico migrate to the U.S. because their country has been impoverished by capitalist policies. i would also like to add that people in mexico suffer greater violations of human rights than the cuban people yet it is not reported in the news because Mexico allows the U.S. to exploit it, which is something that cuba refuses to do.
your first paragraph describes excactly how people in mexico feel and this is why the zapatistas rose up in arms and are currently fighting against capitalism.
[/quote]
The mexicans are free to come and go as they please, idiot. I am done wasting my time with you. Get an edumatcation or actually go and visit an oppressed socialistic country. I have seen it with my own two eyes I need no more convincing than that. Go to Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Tibet, you name it. It is not incumbant on me to provide you with the information. You need to learn on your own. You can take history in college and marxist/lenninist philosophy is an actual class at GSU if your really are into it.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
a lot of people leave their country in search for better lives, not just cubans. people from all over the world migrate to north america and its not just people that live in socialist countries.
for example, people in mexico migrate to the U.S. because their country has been impoverished by capitalist policies. i would also like to add that people in mexico suffer greater violations of human rights than the cuban people yet it is not reported in the news because Mexico allows the U.S. to exploit it, which is something that cuba refuses to do.
your first paragraph describes excactly how people in mexico feel and this is why the zapatistas rose up in arms and are currently fighting against capitalism.
The mexicans are free to come and go as they please, idiot. I am done wasting my time with you. Get an edumatcation or actually go and visit an oppressed socialistic country. I have seen it with my own two eyes I need no more convincing than that. Go to Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Tibet, you name it. It is not incumbant on me to provide you with the information. You need to learn on your own. You can take history in college and marxist/lenninist philosophy is an actual class at GSU if your really are into it.[/quote]
i do not like make personal attacks but i have to say that you are the idiot. mexicans cannot go and come as they please. earlier you made a comment about communist countries making walls, what about the wall that the U.S. is attempting to build in order to prevent immigrants from crossing the border.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Do the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few when it does not fit into your picture of capitalism?
I would agree with you here except that the definition of need in western society is not the same as in other places in the world. In this country a 16 year old girl “needs” a cell phone.
This is a relatively new phenomenon brought about by comercialization and pop culture. On a regular day she probably could exist without it but the capitalists wouldn’t want her or her friends to beleive that becasue it would cut into their profits. There are many other products I could substitute here.
Do you not see that we in western society no longer have “needs” that conflict with our day-to-day survival?[/quote]
How is capitalism to blame for creating a society where day-to-day survival is no longer an issue?
I am strongly inclined to see that as a good thing.
So all you have to blame capitalism for is that it takes care of allmost all we can think of, but, given that human beings are what they are, there is still injustice in the world?
What I do not get is your problem with this.
If the whole concept of materialism is alien to you, build a shed in the woods and live there instead of idealizing and glorifying poverty.
If all the naked monkeys want to play with their blinking toys, let them…
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
…
mexicans cannot go and come as they please. earlier you made a comment about communist countries making walls, what about the wall that the U.S. is attempting to build in order to prevent immigrants from crossing the border.[/quote]
Communist countries build walls to keep people in. The US is building a wall to keep people out.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
NAFTA was supposed to send Mexico into the first world. instead poverty has increased and more people are migrating north.
capitalism impedes on freedom, for example when transnational corporations privatize natural water sources in Mexico and force people who have used that water for many years to start paying for it.
why are countries so rich in natural resources, such as Mexico and a lot of latin america, so poor. it is because of capitalism. [/quote]
So Mexicans CHOOSE to migrate to cities and to the north?
Nobody FORCES them, they are looking for a better future in the rich, because moderately capitalist, north.
Mexico`s economy does not seem to have benefitted from NAFTA, but I bet all those Mexicans crossing the border have.
So all in all, the sum of Mexicans may well have experienced growth rates larger than the numbers of Mexico and even those showed an increase in GNP.
If they have used this water they allready paid for it in form of taxes. Just because society pays for something it is not free.
The fact that they now see how much they pay for it will lead to a more efficient use of the precious resource “water”.
Just because society pays for something it is not free.
Once again capitalism helps to protect the environment :-)…