If America Should Go Communist

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I like talking theory especially when the facts speak for themselves. A dollar today is less than 100th of what it was worth 100 years ago. Thirty years ago a car cost 1/20th of a house and a house could be paid for with approximately 2 year’s annual salary or less.

Today, a car is about half a year’s salary and 1/10 the value of a home and the average home in my neighborhood costs over 10 years salary. Now, many of these reasons are organic to the market but it doesn’t take a genius to see the disparity to the cost of living and the average wage.

How has capitalism in this case improved the average person’s living conditions especially since it now takes five incomes to raise a familiy by 1970’s dollar values?

Well yes there is inflation, because the government is practically printing the money which amounts to counterfeiting?

Socialised money => Socialism, or at least not capitalism.

Thank Wilson and Roosevelt. So much easier to fight wars with money you actually print yourself.

I cannot comment on your neighbourhoods economic situation, but why blame capitalism if the government takes away more than half of your money and spends it on bridges to nowhere or on wars-on-whatever?

Seems to me you`d be much better off keeping your money and making your own decisions.

I think you have the tendency some socialists have, to blame capitalism for problems that occur in every system and are not unique to it, whereas everything that goes wrong in socialism is automatically dismissed as a kind of growing pains even though it can be proven that the idea of a planned economy is deeply flawed.

Should that be the case, it would be more of an religious approach though.[/quote]

I am not blaming capitalism. I am saying it isn’t all its cracked up to be. You tell us how great it is for such and such a reason but those reasons don’t really exist. Capitalism is merely a means–it isn’t the only means. It surely isn’t the end all be all of economic prosperity. The reason I believe this is that the only people that preach it’s dogma are the rich.

222

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
Todays poor are rich by yesterdays standards.

i dont think your statement is accurate, i think in the last 30 years real wages have declined

Todays poor are fat. Yesterdays poor starved. That is the most glaring example. Capitalism has brought such a wealth of material goods that even the poor have access to things that were luxuries in the past.
[/quote]

First off, the real poor do not live in this country and are the victims of Western (mainly American) free enterprise. Secondly, Capitalism is not the reason material goods exist. You are missing the forest for the trees. Need is the reason material goods exist and if capitalism didn’t exist people would still trade for needs. Capitalism is just a system for the unhindered exchange of wealth so that those with the wealth can get wealthier.

223

[quote]orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

[/quote]

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

224

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
Todays poor are rich by yesterdays standards.

i dont think your statement is accurate, i think in the last 30 years real wages have declined

Todays poor are fat. Yesterdays poor starved. That is the most glaring example. Capitalism has brought such a wealth of material goods that even the poor have access to things that were luxuries in the past.

First off, the real poor do not live in this country and are the victims of Western (mainly American) free enterprise.
[/quote]

The old “Drowning man is a victim of oxygen” argument.

[quote]

Secondly, Capitalism is not the reason material goods exist. You are missing the forest for the trees. Need is the reason material goods exist and if capitalism didn’t exist people would still trade for needs. Capitalism is just a system for the unhindered exchange of wealth so that those with the wealth can get wealthier.[/quote]

And those without wealth have opportunity to get wealthier.

Under communism everyone gets equally poor.

If you are seriously going to claim that capitalism is not the primary driving force for the explosion of material wealth throughout the world I am flabbergasted.

If anything capatalism is too efficeint at producing these material goods. Look at the riches capitalistic societies throw away.

Our landfills are full of items that would be considered treasures by those that are forced to live under state run economies. (The real reason Africa is soo poor.)

225

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.[/quote]

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.

226

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.[/quote]

“So easy a caveman can do it”.

The irony is that he is spewing this stuff on a computer. Either that or his telepathy speaks TCP\IP.

227

[quote]pat36 wrote:

If you read through my posts on this here topic you sould get a good idea of my family’s experiences. They are scattered through out this topic. I can tell you in a word the existance was a very poor one. My uncle is a medical doctor and my aunt was a chemist. It’s not like they were lazy, yet they could not make enough money to feed the family. We had to help them. Everybody has hence escaped.
If you want to hear more stories, then go to Miami with a tape recorder and interview the Cubans there. You’ll get the picture and you don’t have to take it from me.

Also, there are plenty of enemies of the US, go find one and live there if you really hate this country. I pretty sure after some time, you’ll come to appreciate this country a whole lot.[/quote]

i have read your posts and i still dont have a good idea. you said that the cuban government took everything away from your family. i would really like to know what the circumstances were and what excactly happened.

you also said that your family did not have enough money to feed their children but this is not the cause of a socialist government. if the government was the direct cause of this i would really like to know how.

the cuban population in miami is openly against the cuban government and have been know to dissiminate a lot of anti-cuban propaganda. i dont think miami would be the best place to go for information on cuban life.

i do not hate this country, what i am against is the capitalist system.

228

[quote]orion wrote:
f anyone ever asks you “What?s so good about capitalism,” tell him this:

Capitalism has made it possible for most of our children to survive the killer diseases and accidents that two centuries ago killed 30% or more of all children before they reached adulthood.

Our children bury us. Most of us do not bury our children. I know of no greater blessing in the modern world. It is a blessing not known throughout most of man?s history. Be grateful for it. We take it for granted.[/quote]

the U.S. has a higher infant mortality rate than Cuba. we bury more of our children than socialist Cuba.

exploited countries in the world have a high infant mortality rate because they are not able to invest in social spending and instead are forced to invest in the market.

we do not see the poverty caused by capitalism because we are the exploiters. if you lived in the exploited countries you would understand that capitalism does more harm than good.

229

Sorry,

Latecomer to this thread.

The day that Cuba has to have massive patrols to control IMMIGRATION from the U.S. is the day that I start listening to pro-communist theory.

Thanks,

JeffR

230

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…

And those without wealth have opportunity to get wealthier.

Under communism everyone gets equally poor.

If you are seriously going to claim that capitalism is not the primary driving force for the explosion of material wealth throughout the world I am flabbergasted.

If anything capatalism is too efficeint at producing these material goods. Look at the riches capitalistic societies throw away.

Our landfills are full of items that would be considered treasures by those that are forced to live under state run economies. (The real reason Africa is soo poor.) [/quote]

as to your argument that poor people can get wealthy, this is not true a majority of the time. here in the U.S. people have the opportunity to increase their wealth which is why so many people immigrate into this country. but again this is because the U.S. is playing the role of the exploiter, the U.S. gets wealthy at the expense of the countries it exploits. 30% of the world population is living with 3 dollars a day. 2% of the worlds population controls 50% of the wealth. in truly poor countries it is extremely difficult for people to escape their poverty and increase their wealth.

by nature in capitalism one mans gain is another mans loss. capitalism is running its course and it is eliminating the competition and concentrating the wealth.

231

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.[/quote]

So do old people in this country.

232

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.

“So easy a caveman can do it”.

The irony is that he is spewing this stuff on a computer. Either that or his telepathy speaks TCP\IP.[/quote]

Again, capitalism has nothing to do with invention. Necessity is the mother of invention. There are no inventions that owe success to capitalism. In communistic societies there wouldn’t be excess because we would rely on funding from non-private backers which would translate to less fat in the system. This in my mind would be a simpler way of life. Commercialism is the real reason why I hate the capitalist system; it creates markets from non-existent need which is superfluous at best and greedy at worst.

233

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.

So do old people in this country.
[/quote]

By definition old people have already lived long lives.

You CANNOT be serious when you make these comments.

234

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.

So do old people in this country.

By definition old people have already lived long lives.

You CANNOT be serious when you make these comments.

[/quote]
I’m just saying its all relative. To me its about the quality of the years in my life not the quantity. Many old people in this country do not live the comfortable lives they were promised by a capitalist society.

I don’t think living a life with every amenity I could possibly need is any better that one where I don’t. For one thing if that was the life we lived we wouldn’t know any better anyway.

Dieing young has nothing to do with living in a capitalist society versus a communist society. Capitalism and communism are both merely a means for providing goods and services. Eventually, need provides the fuel for progress. Capitalism may be more efficient at providing goods but that does not translate to better overall. Right now the efficiency that capitalism works at is going to be an issue for sustainability. There are not enough resources to go around and we use resources for the most mundane garbage that could go to providing needs in other countries. Sustainablity will be the buzz word for the next few decades.

235

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
SeanT wrote:

No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

Naaaa, some right wing dictator would intervene first and like Pinochet he`d get a pretty bad press, because even though socialist policies would have killed a hundred times his victims socialists meant well…

[/quote]

it sounds like you are saying that the torture, disappearing, and murder of thousands of people that occured under the pinochet dictatorship is justifiable. this is what capitalism can lead to, profit by any means necessary. and you’re saying that socialism in Chile would have killed hundreds of thousands(you stated socialism would have killed hundreds more than pinochet and he is acused of killing thousands)? i find this impossible to believe.

we must remember that under full blown capitalism, chile’s poverty and unemployment increased.

236

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

What’s wrong with that? You think it’s impossible to survive without capitalism? We’d be back to the real Darwinian level of survival. Capitalism shouldn’t be given as much credit as you insist. People managed many millennia without it.

And they lived short uncomfortable lives.

So do old people in this country.

By definition old people have already lived long lives.

You CANNOT be serious when you make these comments.[/quote]

people living under the exploitation of capitalism do live short uncomfortable lives. look at the living standard of poor people in latin america and africa.

we understand that the U.S. and a few other countries are well off, but a majority of the world is not

237

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
people living under the exploitation of capitalism do live short uncomfortable lives. look at the living standard of poor people in latin america and africa.

…[/quote]

The poor people in South America and especially Africa are poor because they live under government controlled planned economies, not capitalistic economies.

Capitalism works. Some government intervention is needed to protect the environment and workers rights but I find it amazing that anyone still thinks collectivism and planned economies are better. Even China and Russia have given up on that crap!

238

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
people living under the exploitation of capitalism do live short uncomfortable lives. look at the living standard of poor people in latin america and africa.

…

The poor people in South America and especially Africa are poor because they live under government controlled planned economies, not capitalistic economies.

Capitalism works. Some government intervention is needed to protect the environment and workers rights but I find it amazing that anyone still thinks collectivism and planned economies are better. Even China and Russia have given up on that crap![/quote]

It’s not that other nations have given up on collectivism it’s that they have been forced to compete for resources and have been strong armed into a capitalist system so they can compete with us. Capitalism can only take a society so far before it starts to create a huge gap between the worker and owner classes. By the definition of capitalism success is determined by competition which makes it unrealistic for the “the many” to benefit when it is a law of nature that only the few are smart or strong enough to compete and thrive. If we are going to decide to live in a purely Darwinean society this is fine but if we claim that humanity is important and all people deserve a fair and fighting chance then capitalism is not the way to provide it. We cannot have it both ways.

239

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
i have read your posts and i still dont have a good idea. you said that the cuban government took everything away from your family. i would really like to know what the circumstances were and what excactly happened.

you also said that your family did not have enough money to feed their children but this is not the cause of a socialist government. if the government was the direct cause of this i would really like to know how.

the cuban population in miami is openly against the cuban government and have been know to dissiminate a lot of anti-cuban propaganda. i dont think miami would be the best place to go for information on cuban life.

i do not hate this country, what i am against is the capitalist system. [/quote]

There is a reason why the government took away my families land and any appreciable wealth my family had, they had it, period. There is no mystery here. It was stolen for the “greater good”.
Also, Miami is exactly the place you should go because these people left everything they had, their families, everything, just to escape the oppresion. This is not propaganda. There people lived though hell and wanted out. Most people get this, you and liftvs obviously do not. Nothing I can say or do will change that. If you want to be oppressed go right ahead. I prefer to bitch about how I can’t afford a steamroom in my house yet.

240

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I am not blaming capitalism. I am saying it isn’t all its cracked up to be. You tell us how great it is for such and such a reason but those reasons don’t really exist. Capitalism is merely a means–it isn’t the only means. It surely isn’t the end all be all of economic prosperity. The reason I believe this is that the only people that preach it’s dogma are the rich.[/quote]

Do they believe in it because they are rich or are they rich because they understood how and why it works?

If it is the latter one can hardly blame people that the understand reality better than average people, in fact we need those people and want them rewarded.