If America Should Go Communist

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

i would not rule this out

I double, no, no I triple-dog-fuckin’ dare, no, no I quadruple-dog fuckin’ dare you, with sugar and a cherry on top, to move to Cuba.

Unfortunately, We’d never here from you agian so you can tell us how much you enjoy starving to death. You really ought to know how shitty it is to have nothing and what you do have can and is taken from you.

I thank God everyday I don’t live there. My Aunt and Uncle, would be happy to expound on the joys of living in Cuba.
[/quote]

That is a complete lie. Americans go ther on a regular basis for educational and humanitarian purposes. In fact, the US is the only country that does not allow its citizens to travel to this country without papers. I know Canadians that go there on vacation quite frequently. I hear it is beautiful there but does have its issues. But then there are places in Minneapoplis I wouldn’t go to, so…?

[orion]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Capitalism leads to excellent results because the process of deepening of capital makes our societies richer and richer and richer which is a good thing when it comes to things like food, shelter, health, education, etc…

No, it doesn’t because it’s relative to the amount of total monies in the pot. The more money put into the system the greater the inflation rate. It doesn’t take a mathematician to see that inflation, in fact, causes the disparity between the rich and the poor to grow. Suddenly, now my $100 doesn’t go as far as it used to and we find the Federal Reserve increasing interest rates to combat inflation. Well, now the extra .25% on my loans affects me greatly because I am not rich and rely on capitalists to lend me money. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. A perfectly flawless system if one has extra capital to lend!

Since capital growth is faster than population growth the wages MUST rise.

They don’t rise fast enough to account for inflation.[/quote]

The process of capital deepening has nothing to do with inflation.

In fact, if capital and consumer goods grow and money supply stays the same, a slight DEFLATION ,as is the norm for currency based on gold, occurs.

You money actually becomes worth more and more!

The reason this is not the case is fiat money backed by nothing and banks that are allowed to lend more than they actually have in savings, i.E SOCIALISED MONEY.

Which, again, has nothing to do with capitalism, that could easily deal with competing currencies and a lot with government intervention.

You are right though that inflation slowly and steadily takes your money and gives it to the rich and the government.

One more reason to limit government powers.

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I double, no, no I triple-dog-fuckin’ dare, no, no I quadruple-dog fuckin’ dare you, with sugar and a cherry on top, to move to Cuba.

Unfortunately, We’d never here from you agian so you can tell us how much you enjoy starving to death. You really ought to know how shitty it is to have nothing and what you do have can and is taken from you.

I thank God everyday I don’t live there. My Aunt and Uncle, would be happy to expound on the joys of living in Cuba.

That is a complete lie. Americans go ther on a regular basis for educational and humanitarian purposes. In fact, the US is the only country that does not allow its citizens to travel to this country without papers. I know Canadians that go there on vacation quite frequently. I hear it is beautiful there but does have its issues. But then there are places in Minneapoplis I wouldn’t go to, so…?[/quote]

Lie? I am not lying. I really fucking dare him to go live there. Where’s the lie in that?

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
…

how can you say capitalism brings excellent results? well on second thought it does bring excellent results for a very few. a large part of the worlds poverty is a direct result of capitalism. capitalism has turned war into a profitable business. if you do research it is easy to see that capitalism has destroyed democracy, our government is a very good example. our govenrment does not follow the will of the people but rather the will of the corporations. big business owns the government and the media. i know that the end goal of capitalism is not world domination by big corporations but capitalism has allowed it to happen.[/quote]

Todays poor are rich by yesterdays standards.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Capitalism leads to excellent results because the process of deepening of capital makes our societies richer and richer and richer which is a good thing when it comes to things like food, shelter, health, education, etc…

No, it doesn’t because it’s relative to the amount of total monies in the pot. The more money put into the system the greater the inflation rate. It doesn’t take a mathematician to see that inflation, in fact, causes the disparity between the rich and the poor to grow. Suddenly, now my $100 doesn’t go as far as it used to and we find the Federal Reserve increasing interest rates to combat inflation. Well, now the extra .25% on my loans affects me greatly because I am not rich and rely on capitalists to lend me money. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. A perfectly flawless system if one has extra capital to lend!

Since capital growth is faster than population growth the wages MUST rise.

They don’t rise fast enough to account for inflation.

The process of capital deepening has nothing to do with inflation.

In fact, if capital and consumer goods grow and money supply stays the same, a slight DEFLATION ,as is the norm for currency based on gold, occurs.

You money actually becomes worth more and more!

The reason this is not the case is fiat money backed by nothing and banks that are allowed to lend more than they actually have in savings, i.E SOCIALISED MONEY.

Which, again, has nothing to do with capitalism, that could easily deal with competing currencies and a lot with government intervention.

You are right though that inflation slowly and steadily takes your money and gives it to the rich and the government.

One more reason to limit government powers.[/quote]

I like talking theory especially when the facts speak for themselves. A dollar today is less than 100th of what it was worth 100 years ago. Thirty years ago a car cost 1/20th of a house and a house could be paid for with approximately 2 year’s annual salary or less.

Today, a car is about half a year’s salary and 1/10 the value of a home and the average home in my neighborhood costs over 10 years salary. Now, many of these reasons are organic to the market but it doesn’t take a genius to see the disparity to the cost of living and the average wage.

How has capitalism in this case improved the average person’s living conditions especially since it now takes five incomes to raise a familiy by 1970’s dollar values?

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Lie? I am not lying. I really fucking dare him to go live there. Where’s the lie in that?
[/quote]

Ok, it wasn’t a lie but you are very melodramatic. Cuba is not that bad otherwise people wouldn’t go there on vacation.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Lie? I am not lying. I really fucking dare him to go live there. Where’s the lie in that?

Ok, it wasn’t a lie but you are very melodramatic. Cuba is not that bad otherwise people wouldn’t go there on vacation.

[/quote]

Not bad for tourists. Bad for peple that live there.

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Lie? I am not lying. I really fucking dare him to go live there. Where’s the lie in that?

Ok, it wasn’t a lie but you are very melodramatic. Cuba is not that bad otherwise people wouldn’t go there on vacation.

[/quote]
I am not talking about vacationing at some resort off the beaten path for the avarage Cuban. He said he wants to live there. That’s totally different. Hati has vaction spots too; I wouldn’t want to live there either. But at least you can leave Haiti when you damn well please.

[SeanT]

So some guy that works at McDonalds and Bill gates would make the same amount? No way, Why would people bother going to college, it would not really better their lives.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
… Hati has vaction spots too; I wouldn’t want to live there either. But at least you can leave Haiti when you damn well please.
[/quote]

My dad was on some Haitian island (not the main one) a few years ago. He said it wasn’t bad.

[gladiatorsteer]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
…

how can you say capitalism brings excellent results? well on second thought it does bring excellent results for a very few. a large part of the worlds poverty is a direct result of capitalism. capitalism has turned war into a profitable business. if you do research it is easy to see that capitalism has destroyed democracy, our government is a very good example. our govenrment does not follow the will of the people but rather the will of the corporations. big business owns the government and the media. i know that the end goal of capitalism is not world domination by big corporations but capitalism has allowed it to happen.

Todays poor are rich by yesterdays standards.[/quote]

i dont think your statement is accurate, i think in the last 30 years real wages have declined

[gladiatorsteer]

[quote]SeanT wrote:
So some guy that works at McDonalds and Bill gates would make the same amount? No way, Why would people bother going to college, it would not really better their lives.[/quote]

communism is a lot more complicated than that, the theory of communism does not mention everybody making the same amount of money. in fact im pretty sure communism is in favor of the abolishment of money.

under these circumstances people would go universities to truly educate themselves not just to get a diploma which can get you a job.

[gladiatorsteer]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Lie? I am not lying. I really fucking dare him to go live there. Where’s the lie in that?

Ok, it wasn’t a lie but you are very melodramatic. Cuba is not that bad otherwise people wouldn’t go there on vacation.

I am not talking about vacationing at some resort off the beaten path for the avarage Cuban. He said he wants to live there. That’s totally different. Hati has vaction spots too; I wouldn’t want to live there either. But at least you can leave Haiti when you damn well please.
[/quote]

i would be really interest in hearing about your family’s experiences in cuba.

i know the cuban government is not perfect. i say that i would not rule out living in cuba becuase cuba has resisted the U.S. empire for 48 years and i would like to be able to experience what life is like in such a country and not just have to rely on what the U.S. media says.

[orion]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I like talking theory especially when the facts speak for themselves. A dollar today is less than 100th of what it was worth 100 years ago. Thirty years ago a car cost 1/20th of a house and a house could be paid for with approximately 2 year’s annual salary or less.

Today, a car is about half a year’s salary and 1/10 the value of a home and the average home in my neighborhood costs over 10 years salary. Now, many of these reasons are organic to the market but it doesn’t take a genius to see the disparity to the cost of living and the average wage.

How has capitalism in this case improved the average person’s living conditions especially since it now takes five incomes to raise a familiy by 1970’s dollar values?[/quote]

Well yes there is inflation, because the government is practically printing the money which amounts to counterfeiting?

Socialised money => Socialism, or at least not capitalism.

Thank Wilson and Roosevelt. So much easier to fight wars with money you actually print yourself.

I cannot comment on your neighbourhoods economic situation, but why blame capitalism if the government takes away more than half of your money and spends it on bridges to nowhere or on wars-on-whatever?

Seems to me you`d be much better off keeping your money and making your own decisions.

I think you have the tendency some socialists have, to blame capitalism for problems that occur in every system and are not unique to it, whereas everything that goes wrong in socialism is automatically dismissed as a kind of growing pains even though it can be proven that the idea of a planned economy is deeply flawed.

Should that be the case, it would be more of an religious approach though.

[orion]

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
SeanT wrote:
So some guy that works at McDonalds and Bill gates would make the same amount? No way, Why would people bother going to college, it would not really better their lives.

communism is a lot more complicated than that, the theory of communism does not mention everybody making the same amount of money. in fact im pretty sure communism is in favor of the abolishment of money.

under these circumstances people would go universities to truly educate themselves not just to get a diploma which can get you a job.
[/quote]

No more money, no more prizes, no more sophisticated advanced planning, barter economy, widespread famine, cities are abandoned, maybe we re-establish civilization at feudalism level…

Naaaa, some right wing dictator would intervene first and like Pinochet he`d get a pretty bad press, because even though socialist policies would have killed a hundred times his victims socialists meant well…

[orion]

f anyone ever asks you “What?s so good about capitalism,” tell him this:

Capitalism has made it possible for most of our children to survive the killer diseases and accidents that two centuries ago killed 30% or more of all children before they reached adulthood.

Our children bury us. Most of us do not bury our children. I know of no greater blessing in the modern world. It is a blessing not known throughout most of man?s history. Be grateful for it. We take it for granted.

[Headhunter]

Communism is a conspiracy against the MIND. The human instinct to avoid change, to stay with the known and familiar, is its basis.

When a thinking individual comes up with a brilliant idea, such as the Internet, it upsets lots of people. For example, you can now buy online, which skips the brick-and-mortar stores and state taxes (in many instances). Those people want the new upstart industry regulated and controlled. Its the same old story — the individual against the collective.

Look at how the internet upsets NBC, CBS, and ABC. Their ratings are plummeting. Newspapers are dead. Those people fight back with government.

Communism is simply FEAR of change carried to extremes in government.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
Todays poor are rich by yesterdays standards.

i dont think your statement is accurate, i think in the last 30 years real wages have declined
[/quote]

Todays poor are fat. Yesterdays poor starved. That is the most glaring example. Capitalism has brought such a wealth of material goods that even the poor have access to things that were luxuries in the past.

[pat]

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
i would be really interest in hearing about your family’s experiences in cuba.

i know the cuban government is not perfect. i say that i would not rule out living in cuba becuase cuba has resisted the U.S. empire for 48 years and i would like to be able to experience what life is like in such a country and not just have to rely on what the U.S. media says.[/quote]

If you read through my posts on this here topic you sould get a good idea of my family’s experiences. They are scattered through out this topic. I can tell you in a word the existance was a very poor one. My uncle is a medical doctor and my aunt was a chemist. It’s not like they were lazy, yet they could not make enough money to feed the family. We had to help them. Everybody has hence escaped.
If you want to hear more stories, then go to Miami with a tape recorder and interview the Cubans there. You’ll get the picture and you don’t have to take it from me.

Also, there are plenty of enemies of the US, go find one and live there if you really hate this country. I pretty sure after some time, you’ll come to appreciate this country a whole lot.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Communism is a conspiracy against the MIND. The human instinct to avoid change, to stay with the known and familiar, is its basis.

When a thinking individual comes up with a brilliant idea, such as the Internet, it upsets lots of people. For example, you can now buy online, which skips the brick-and-mortar stores and state taxes (in many instances). Those people want the new upstart industry regulated and controlled. Its the same old story — the individual against the collective.

Look at how the internet upsets NBC, CBS, and ABC. Their ratings are plummeting. Newspapers are dead. Those people fight back with government.

Communism is simply FEAR of change carried to extremes in government.[/quote]

huh?! What does your rambling have to do with a “conspiracy against the mind”? What does that mean anyway?