If America Should Go Communist

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
My family is from Cuba, asshole. They didn’t leave it, they escaped from it. Not only was everything taken from my family in Cuba, but they were also persecuted for being Catholics. I never met my grand parents because of your friend Castro. I could never go. They are dead now and the rest of my family escaped just recently.

Your complaints are valid and understood but what does it have to do with communism? Again, Castro and the government he represents is fascist. What else do you expect from dictatorial regimes? Castro is no more a communist than Lenin or Stalin was. We judge people by thier actions not by the titles they give themselves.

Well you really can`t comment on capitalism then, because there has never been a 100% capitalist society either.

We can comment on the philosophy of capitalism or communism. The distiction is that we cannot compare the historical context of these said philosophies because as was stated there has never been 100% so-and-so. I am being completly hypothetical in regards to how communism would need to be implemented in order to function. Captialism by its very nature was not meant for a democratic societies.

Capitalism because of its very nature leads to democratic societies, in fact there can be no Democracy without private property.

Why? So that only private land owners can have a say? Capitalism is completely aristocratic and leads to authoritarian ownership. How do people own land and property? What inherent rights and philosphical principles can back this up?

Please qualify your opinion as it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.[/quote]

F.E: If I want to voice an unpopular opinion that is relatively easy in a free market system.

Get the money produce some leaflets, buy airtime have your voice heard.

If everything belongs to society though, you need to ask permission for paper, ink, access to a printing machine and so on…

Now that might work in a communist society well if you want to praise chairman Mao but if you want to critisize him or promote other unpopular opinions you will have to convince dozens of bureaucrats who are in charge because they are true believers.

How likely is that?

For the whole argument, read the book.

Even Marx claimed that the more property was in private hands the freer society got.

182

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Here are some links for the socialists among us:
Here’s your buddy Castro:

http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/ago06/15e12.htm

His student Chavez is equally great:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0612030393dec03,1,7234181.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

Yea, he’s a regular chior boy:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/un_hrc/venezuela.html

China is a bunch of nice guys too:

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/chn-010207-action-eng

Liftvs, Gladiator, these are the people who you support. This is what this communist ideology brings. Every where it’s been tried this is the result. Name a country and then look it up. History speaks for itself, you don’t have to take the word of some dickhead on a forum.
Get eduacated on the topic. Visit places where it exists or is has existed. Talk to people who have lived it. Don’t take it from me. Look it up yourselves. There is plenty of empirical evidence out there.
I am done with it.[/quote]

please research both sides of the story

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8243.htm

183

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:

When corporations violate environmental laws they committ a crime. That is what justice systems are for. Happens in all systems and is not unique to free markets. In fact socialist countries REALLY fucked up their environments.

socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not conSume more natural resources than the earth can produce.[/quote]

You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

184

[quote]orion wrote:

The WTO, IMF, etc have nothing to do with capitalism and a lot with merkantilism. For free trade you need less rules and less bureaucrates and also less import restrictions in rich countries.

The way rich countries use those institutions is very often a disgrace, but the very disgrace is GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION that PREVENTS POOR COUNTRIES from competing on equal terms.

This is not capitalism but the lack of it.

Argentine was economically crippled by linking their currency to the $ and through socialised money.

That mean it was hurt by too much government intervention, not the lack of it.

Fishermen cannot compete wth big companies, banana farmers not with cheap fruit.

Well, though luck.

Explain to me why thousands of poor people with poor diets and children to feed should not have cheap fish and fruit just so that a few dozens can keep a job others can do way better.

Once there were 80% farmers in Europe, now it is 2-3%.

This inrease in productivity was rather unpleasant for those farmers but an enormous benefit for all the rest and their descendents, because it led us out of the Dark Ages.

When medieval craftsmen were replaced by manufacturers that sucked for them.

When dose were replaced by factories that sucked for the manufacturers.

When they started to use better machines, robots, computers that also sucked for some people.

All in all though this constant progress has made us the richest, best educated, healthiest societies ever.

Things change and that`s a good thing.

To the drop in real wages.

How dare you blame capitalism when the government takes away more than 50% of what you produce and squanders it on war on drugs, war on poverty and high tech fighters to wipe out al Quaedas mighty airforce?

The rich get richer and the poor poorer?

No way. Millions of Chinese and Indians have escaped poverty, hundreds of millions are on their way of achieving the same.

[/quote]

the WTO, IMF, World Bank have everything to do with capitalism. they attempt to turn the world into one integrated capitalist economy.

Argentina was the model for neoliberalism and it is widely excepted the neoliberalist policies crippled that country.

i agree that change and technological advances which benefit the population are good. so instead of wiping out the fishermen and farmers why not help them do a better job themselves instead of letting foreign companies come and steal the wealth of that country. instead of making these countries dependant on foreign corporations why not let them develop their own economies. eliminate free trade in favor of fair trade.

the war on drugs in hypocritical since the U.S. benefits and is involved in the world drug trade. as for the war on poverty it could be resolved easier if the very small percentage of the population that has a great majority of the wealth would be more willing to share that wealth. if the U.S. stopped using imperialist foreign policies they would not have to spend so much on national defense.

China is not a capitalist economy it is a mixed economy but i will still give it to you as a capitalist success. what we have to look at is the big picture. the majority of the world is struggling to live while a few nations get rich.

185

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not concume more natural resources than the earth can produce.

Not if they are using petroleum.[/quote]

i think cuba imports its oil

186

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:

When corporations violate environmental laws they committ a crime. That is what justice systems are for. Happens in all systems and is not unique to free markets. In fact socialist countries REALLY fucked up their environments.

socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not conSume more natural resources than the earth can produce.

You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.[/quote]

i would not rule this out

187

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote

the WTO, IMF, World Bank have everything to do with capitalism. they attempt to turn the world into one integrated capitalist economy.

Argentina was the model for neoliberalism and it is widely excepted the neoliberalist policies crippled that country.[/quote]

That is simply not true:

All it needs is the following declaraion of the US congress:

No more tariffs, no more quotas, import, export, just do whatever you want and have a nice day.

Shazaam, free trade.

All those institutions operate on extorted money, constantly interfere in the economy and are a general pain in the ass.

Collectivism? Sure!

Socialism? Maybe…

Capitalism? The ideology of freedom and non-intervention? Never!

They should develop their own economies
producing something that they can produce cheaper and better than the US.

Fish and fruit does not seem to be that something.

Free trade is fair trade.

You dont like the prize? Dont pay.

[quote]

the war on drugs in hypocritical since the U.S. benefits and is involved in the world drug trade. as for the war on poverty it could be resolved easier if the very small percentage of the population that has a great majority of the wealth would be more willing to share that wealth. if the U.S. stopped using imperialist foreign policies they would not have to spend so much on national defense.[/quote]

Maybe, but the US government does and takes your money for it.

Why blame the nice companies giving you money and NOT blame the government that takes it away at gunpoint and wastes it?

And if it is so, why want more government and less companies instead the other way around?

[quote]
China is not a capitalist economy it is a mixed economy but i will still give it to you as a capitalist success. what we have to look at is the big picture. the majority of the world is struggling to live while a few nations get rich.[/quote]

But they are moving upwards in all the countries involved in globalization, free instead of fair trade or not, whereas those countries left out suffer.

Plus, you agree with me that the more capitalistic China got, the richer it got?

Might I point out a certain correlation if not causation?

188

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:

When corporations violate environmental laws they committ a crime. That is what justice systems are for. Happens in all systems and is not unique to free markets. In fact socialist countries REALLY fucked up their environments.

socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not conSume more natural resources than the earth can produce.

You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

i would not rule this out[/quote]

Would not rule it out? If you were so in love with the lunacy of communism, you would be there already. Even you realize it is much more fun to live in a free society and goad others into silly conversations about how great Cuba is.

189

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote

the WTO, IMF, World Bank have everything to do with capitalism. they attempt to turn the world into one integrated capitalist economy.

Argentina was the model for neoliberalism and it is widely excepted the neoliberalist policies crippled that country.

That is simply not true:

All it needs is the following declaraion of the US congress:

No more tariffs, no more quotas, import, export, just do whatever you want and have a nice day.

Shazaam, free trade.

All those institutions operate on extorted money, constantly interfere in the economy and are a general pain in the ass.

Collectivism? Sure!

Socialism? Maybe…

Capitalism? The ideology of freedom and non-intervention? Never!

i agree that change and technological advances which benefit the population are good. so instead of wiping out the fishermen and farmers why not help them do a better job themselves instead of letting foreign companies come and steal the wealth of that country. instead of making these countries dependant on foreign corporations why not let them develop their own economies. eliminate free trade in favor of fair trade.

They should develop their own economies
producing something that they can produce cheaper and better than the US.

Fish and fruit does not seem to be that something.

Free trade is fair trade.

You dont like the prize? Dont pay.

the war on drugs in hypocritical since the U.S. benefits and is involved in the world drug trade. as for the war on poverty it could be resolved easier if the very small percentage of the population that has a great majority of the wealth would be more willing to share that wealth. if the U.S. stopped using imperialist foreign policies they would not have to spend so much on national defense.

Maybe, but the US government does and takes your money for it.

Why blame the nice companies giving you money and NOT blame the government that takes it away at gunpoint and wastes it?

And if it is so, why want more government and less companies instead the other way around?

China is not a capitalist economy it is a mixed economy but i will still give it to you as a capitalist success. what we have to look at is the big picture. the majority of the world is struggling to live while a few nations get rich.

But they are moving upwards in all the countries involved in globalization, free instead of fair trade or not, whereas those countries left out suffer.

Plus, you agree with me that the more capitalistic China got, the richer it got?

Might I point out a certain correlation if not causation?[/quote]

the policies of IMF, WTO, and World Bank benefit the transnational corporations and banks some of the policies are even written by the corps. and banks.

in developing countries more often than not free trade is going to benefit the big corporations. fair trade will lesen this problem.

as far as china is concerned, i have heard the argument that protectionist polices kick started the economy but i have not researched this myself so i will take your word for it. this does not dismiss the fact that neoliberal polices have empoverished latin america, the caribbean, and africa.

i have read that america initially built its wealth using protectionist economic policies and that put them on the path to become the super power it is today.

190

[quote]JD430 wrote:

socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not conSume more natural resources than the earth can produce.

You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

i would not rule this out

Would not rule it out? If you were so in love with the lunacy of communism, you would be there already. Even you realize it is much more fun to live in a free society and goad others into silly conversations about how great Cuba is.

[/quote]

cuba is not a communist country, this has been established already. i admire the cuban people because they have resisted against U.S. imperialism for 48 years.

191

[quote]JD430 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:

When corporations violate environmental laws they committ a crime. That is what justice systems are for. Happens in all systems and is not unique to free markets. In fact socialist countries REALLY fucked up their environments.

socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not conSume more natural resources than the earth can produce.

You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

i would not rule this out

Would not rule it out? If you were so in love with the lunacy of communism, you would be there already. Even you realize it is much more fun to live in a free society and goad others into silly conversations about how great Cuba is.

[/quote]

i forgot to add that compared to other latin american countries (which continue to be exploited by the U.S.) cuba has a high standard of living.

192

I find it more than a little ironic that alot of criticism about Communism comes from ardent supporters of Neoconservatism…

[i]We are now seeing the implementation of a long-standing neoconservative ambition: the imposition of a world order–in effect, an American Empire, with Washington, D.C., at its center. The infiltration and co-opting of the conservative movement by the Marxist right and its transformation into an instrument of an ideology that is statist, globalist, and militantly expansionist was the first step on the road to empire. Once the Marxist right had seized control of the think tanks, magazines, and activist organizations of the American right, they moved to exert control over the Republican Party.

Both the ideology and the methods of the Marxist left have been imported into the conservative movement. Ideologically, the so-called third-camp socialism of Shachtman and his followers has been transmuted into the worship of “Democracy” as the be-all and end-all of human development. The neocons have simply stood the old Trotskyism on its head and said that the American system–like the old Soviet system–cannot stand alone and isolated but must spread itself over the earth or face defeat at the hands of its enemies.

The ideological framework of neoconservative ideology is deeply rooted in the Marxist tradition. Francis Fukuyama, the boy wonder of the neocons, even came up with an application of the Hegelian dialectic as the ultimate rationale for American global hegemony in his famous article on “The End of History.” The Marxists, too, saw themselves as agents of History, and they constantly evoked images of modernity to justify their innumerable crimes against humanity. They came as “liberators”–a favorite word of Red Army propagandists, and one that our own Pentagon has since taken up with alacrity…[/i]
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/January2004/0104Raimondo.html

They certainly laid waste to the Republican party.

193

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

the policies of IMF, WTO, and World Bank benefit the transnational corporations and banks some of the policies are even written by the corps. and banks.

in developing countries more often than not free trade is going to benefit the big corporations. fair trade will lesen this problem.

as far as china is concerned, i have heard the argument that protectionist polices kick started the economy but i have not researched this myself so i will take your word for it. this does not dismiss the fact that neoliberal polices have empoverished latin america, the caribbean, and africa.

i have read that america initially built its wealth using protectionist economic policies and that put them on the path to become the super power it is today.
[/quote]

Yes the IMF, WTO etc and big corporations and banks often work hand in hand.

As I said that is state-capitalism, mercantilism, corporatism with sometimes more than a fascist and imperialist ring to it.

It also flies in the face of the whole idea of free trade and capitalism.

Don`t blame those ideas if its government intervention on a global scale you really detest.

There is no need to buy their propaganda.

The idea that some countries benefitted from shutting off their markets at first.

I`m a little on the fence on this one.

I do not know.

Theoretically it should be impossible to profit from such a measure, but in a world where powerful, rich countries use above mentioned agencies to meddle with the economic affairs of other countries you might get an edge playing he same game.

All I know is that if the second is the case it only costs all of us a lot of money, as all incentive distorting government interference does.

Did America implement protectionist measures in the beginning? Sure!

You have to realize though that mercantilism was the name of the game back then and we all should know better by now.

To your last point:

Yes big companies profit from trade. So to their trading partners or otherwise they would not trade.

You make it sound as if profit is obscene even though it is the incentive for trade in the first place.

Without the promise of profit for big companies millions of people would still work in rice fields, knee-deep in water, with the smell of Yak shit in their noses.

Plus, nonone has impowerished Afria, they allways were poor.

194

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:

When corporations violate environmental laws they committ a crime. That is what justice systems are for. Happens in all systems and is not unique to free markets. In fact socialist countries REALLY fucked up their environments.

socialist cuba is the only sustainable country in the world meaning it does not conSume more natural resources than the earth can produce.

You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

i would not rule this out[/quote]

Good luck with that!

195

article by William Blum

Man shall never fly

The Cold War is still with us. Because the ideological conflict that was the basis for it has not gone away. Because it can’t go away. As long as capitalism exists, as long as it puts profit before people, as it must, as long as it puts profit before the environment, as it must, those on the receiving end of its sharp pointed stick must look for a better way.

Thus it is that when Venezuelan President Hugo Ch?vez announced a few days ago that he plans to nationalize telephone and electric utility companies to accelerate his “socialist revolution”, the spokesperson for Capitalism Central, White House press secretary Tony Snow, was quick to the attack: “Nationalization has a long and inglorious history of failure around the world,” Snow declared. “We support the Venezuelan people and think this is an unhappy day for them.”[18]

Snow presumably buys into the belief that capitalism defeated socialism in the Cold War. A victory for a superior idea. The boys of Capital chortle in their martinis about the death of socialism. The word has been banned from polite conversation. And they hope that no one will notice that every socialist experiment of any significance in the past century has either been corrupted, subverted, perverted, or destabilized … or crushed, overthrown, bombed, or invaded … or otherwise had life made impossible for it, by the United States. Not one socialist government or movement – from the Russian Revolution to Cuba, the Sandinistas in Nicaragua and the FMLN in Salvador, from Communist China to Grenada, Chile and Vietnam – not one was permitted to rise or fall solely on its own merits; not one was left secure enough to drop its guard against the all-powerful enemy abroad and freely and fully relax control at home. Even many plain old social democracies – such as in Guatemala, Iran, British Guiana, Serbia and Haiti, which were not in love with capitalism and were looking for another path – even these too were made to bite the dust by Uncle Sam.

It’s as if the Wright brothers’ first experiments with flying machines all failed because the automobile interests sabotaged each test flight. And then the good and god-fearing folk of America looked upon this, took notice of the consequences, nodded their collective heads wisely, and intoned solemnly: Man shall never fly.

Tony Snow would have us believe that the government is no match for the private sector in efficiently getting large and important things done. But is that really true? Let’s clear our minds for a moment, push our upbringing to one side, and remember that the American government has landed men on the moon, created great dams, marvelous national parks, an interstate highway system, the peace corps, built up an incredible military machine (ignoring for the moment what it’s used for), student loans, social security, Medicare, insurance for bank deposits, protection of pension funds against corporate misuse, the Environmental Protection Agency, the National Institutes of Health, the Smithsonian, the G.I. Bill, and much, much more. In short, the government has been quite good at doing what it wanted to do, or what labor and other movements have made it do, like establishing worker health and safety standards and requiring food manufacturers to list detailed information about ingredients.

When George W. took office one of his chief goals was to examine whether jobs done by federal employees could be performed more efficiently by private contractors. Bush called it his top management priority. By the end of 2005, 50,000 government jobs had been studied. And federal workers had won the job competitions more than 80 percent of the time.[19]

We have to remind the American people of what they’ve instinctively learned but tend to forget when faced with statements like that of Tony Snow – that they don’t want more government, or less government; they don’t want big government, or small government; they want government on their side.

And by the way, Tony, the great majority of the population in the last years of the Soviet Union had a much better quality of life, including a longer life, under their “failed nationalized” economy, than they have had under unbridled capitalism.

None of the above, of course, will deter The World’s Only Superpower from continuing its jihad to impose capitalist fundamentalism upon the world.

196

I give you that no socialist experiment was ever left alone to stand and fall on its own.

So sorry, the very second someone tries to make me part of a socialist experiment I sabotage it whenever I can.

I do not wish to be a beast of burden for a pipe dream…

Unfortunately the same is true for capitalist democracies that immediately started to become more and more socialist and yet were still able to feed and clothe their population.

So there never was “pure” capitalism either, yet imperfect capitalism still works.

How much of an economic system is socialism, if it cannot do the same?

And no, I do not want government at my side.

I want it to leave me alone and get out of my way.

It only does that when its small.

Unfortunately sooner or later you will have to face von Mises works who explained why socialism cannot work in the 20`s.

That will probably also mean to let go of certain assumptions how and what human beings are, but I hope it will help that we allready have a system that brings excellent results even with less than perfect people.

197

[quote]orion wrote:
I give you that no socialist experiment was ever left alone to stand and fall on its own.

So sorry, the very second someone tries to make me part of a socialist experiment I sabotage it whenever I can.

I do not wish to be a beast of burden for a pipe dream…

Unfortunately the same is true for capitalist democracies that immediately started to become more and more socialist and yet were still able to feed and clothe their population.

So there never was “pure” capitalism either, yet imperfect capitalism still works.

How much of an economic system is socialism, if it cannot do the same?

And no, I do not want government at my side.

I want it to leave me alone and get out of my way.

It only does that when its small.

Unfortunately sooner or later you will have to face von Mises works who explained why socialism cannot work in the 20`s.

That will probably also mean to let go of certain assumptions how and what human beings are, but I hope it will help that we allready have a system that brings excellent results even with less than perfect people.[/quote]

how can you say capitalism brings excellent results? well on second thought it does bring excellent results for a very few. a large part of the worlds poverty is a direct result of capitalism. capitalism has turned war into a profitable business. if you do research it is easy to see that capitalism has destroyed democracy, our government is a very good example. our govenrment does not follow the will of the people but rather the will of the corporations. big business owns the government and the media. i know that the end goal of capitalism is not world domination by big corporations but capitalism has allowed it to happen.

198

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

how can you say capitalism brings excellent results? well on second thought it does bring excellent results for a very few. a large part of the worlds poverty is a direct result of capitalism. capitalism has turned war into a profitable business. if you do research it is easy to see that capitalism has destroyed democracy, our government is a very good example. our govenrment does not follow the will of the people but rather the will of the corporations. big business owns the government and the media. i know that the end goal of capitalism is not world domination by big corporations but capitalism has allowed it to happen.[/quote]

Capitalism leads to excellent results because the process of deepening of capital makes our societies richer and richer and richer which is a good thing when it comes to things like food, shelter, health, education, etc…

Since capital growth is faster than population growth the wages MUST rise.

Now I do agree that the bigger government is, the more businesses tend to buy into government.

I think it is save to say that the more government interferes with business, the more succesful businesses have to buy into government.

That kind of has a tendency to develop into state capitalism, corporatism, and getting close to or develop into fascism.

The American Military-Industrial-Congressional-Complex is a prime example.

It is not true though that they turned war into a profitable buiness; they might get rich, but the cost for society is enormous.

Now your answer seems to be communism or some sort of socialism.

That would mean though to merge big business, big media, and big government.
If you do not like it when they work so close together now, why make that co-operation official and mandatory?

Destroying Democracy:

That depends on what you think Democracy is. It never meant that people decide on everything but it allways left the possibility to get rid of our leaders every four years.

You still have that, so that important aspect still works.

Plus, do you want Democracy or Freedom?

Not necessarily the same thing and the freedom to use our own property is allmost all the freedom you have.

199

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
You sound like a true believer. I think you should move there to fully enjoy it.

i would not rule this out[/quote]

I double, no, no I triple-dog-fuckin’ dare, no, no I quadruple-dog fuckin’ dare you, with sugar and a cherry on top, to move to Cuba.

Unfortunately, We’d never here from you agian so you can tell us how much you enjoy starving to death. You really ought to know how shitty it is to have nothing and what you do have can and is taken from you.

I thank God everyday I don’t live there. My Aunt and Uncle, would be happy to expound on the joys of living in Cuba.

200

[quote]orion wrote:
Capitalism leads to excellent results because the process of deepening of capital makes our societies richer and richer and richer which is a good thing when it comes to things like food, shelter, health, education, etc…
[/quote]

No, it doesn’t because it’s relative to the amount of total monies in the pot. The more money put into the system the greater the inflation rate. It doesn’t take a mathematician to see that inflation, in fact, causes the disparity between the rich and the poor to grow. Suddenly, now my $100 doesn’t go as far as it used to and we find the Federal Reserve increasing interest rates to combat inflation. Well, now the extra .25% on my loans affects me greatly because I am not rich and rely on capitalists to lend me money. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. A perfectly flawless system if one has extra capital to lend!

They don’t rise fast enough to account for inflation.