Ideology in Dragon Age: Origins

Heh. I was a games journalist between 1993 and 2001 and we used to refer to EA as The Borg thanks to their habit of assimilating awesome companies like Bullfrog, Westwood, Origin, Maxis…I could go on…and turning them into faceless sequel studios or closing them down altogether.
Still, Bioware were a little smarter and insisted on a certain amount of autonomy, and are continuing to produce some awesome games.

I have yet to play Dragon Age (main reason is I got a new PC back in March and have been furiously playing a long list of games that wouldn’t work on my old machine) but there’s quite a mixed reaction to it. Frankly I think it’s a bit lazy of them to stick with the whole tired elves, humans and dwarves thing when they no longer have the D&D license and could have done anything with their fantasy world, but I guess they wanted to please the huge Baldur’s Gate fanbase. (And to be honest, I’m one of those. I just fucking hate elves).

Mass Effect was a lot more interesting and I must admit I’ve been looking forward to ME2 far more than DA:O. The moral issues in that were quite interesting. I have a hard time playing evil in most games because evil usually equals jerk. In ME it was possible to be entirely ruthless without being a jerk (although the jerk options are there) which is a nice change.

Best moral dilemma I have ever come across, though, was The Pitt add-on for Fallout 3. You get a nice quest to free the slaves, which seems pretty obviously the good option - until you dig a bit deeper and find nothing’s quite as clear-cut. If you do the free the slaves path, you have to do some morally reprehensible things, but if you take the other option, which may be for the greater good longterm, a lot of people are still going to suffer. It made me do a lot of thinking.

[quote]Cal Jones wrote:
Mass Effect was a lot more interesting and I must admit I’ve been looking forward to ME2 far more than DA:O. The moral issues in that were quite interesting. I have a hard time playing evil in most games because evil usually equals jerk. In ME it was possible to be entirely ruthless without being a jerk (although the jerk options are there) which is a nice change. [/quote]

Yeah, I usually go the Paragon-route as well the first time around (or in ME’s case, have that be my progressive character that I can play on high difficulties,) but it’s always fun to have an Evil Character as well. You’re right about ME, it made you feel more like an authoritative-badass than a douchebag when you took that route. Especially when you could unlock some of the left-side persuasion text options that were in red. Gawd I love that game.

[quote]
Best moral dilemma I have ever come across, though, was The Pitt add-on for Fallout 3. You get a nice quest to free the slaves, which seems pretty obviously the good option - until you dig a bit deeper and find nothing’s quite as clear-cut. If you do the free the slaves path, you have to do some morally reprehensible things, but if you take the other option, which may be for the greater good longterm, a lot of people are still going to suffer. It made me do a lot of thinking.[/quote]

Good call, I forgot all about a lot of the moral decisions in Fallout 3. I found it to be quite a bit more difficult than ME, in the fact that if you made a wrong decision it could permanently alter your gameplay… for instance, letting all the Ghouls into Tanpenny Tower and letting them kill all the residents. Totally screwed some sort of mission later in the game that was supposed to take place there. Oops!

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Mad_Duck wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
… Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor…

Trust me, this analogy would be the only thing naturally springing to mind if you were a developer at EA. Trust me on this.

Hah, I’m sure that’s true. Do you still work there? If so, you should quit as soon as you get the chance, and tell them why on your way out the door. You’re not being held there against your will like the Elves, are you?

A lot of people talk about this with regard to EA, but I wonder why in the hell they stick around. Employment is a strictly voluntary arrangement on both sides. Take advantage of that. If everybody who complained about it quit, they’d probably be left with no decent talent and their games would go to shit (it’s arguable that this has already happened, but fuck that: make it even worse for them). Bring your colleagues along with you.[/quote]

I went into a different sector, but a good number of people I graduated with got head-hunted by them for dream jobs. They started making enough to start families, and got all the hours of work they could want. Lately my friends have been given the choice of 60 hr work-weeks with overtime being ‘volunteer’ time, or getting laid off at the end of a project. They think their choice is feed their family they never get to see, or starve.

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
That being said, there’s a very real possibility that I’m reading too much into it, and the game actually is relatively fair. [/quote]

I think you are reading too much into it. A game where everyone was all happy-friendly with no upper and lower class would be pretty unrealistic/boring (and would probably inspire some “this promots communism” rants from people who read too much into these things).

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:

This is a great point that I hadn’t thought of. Probably seeing too much red in anticipation of encountering what my own pre-conceived notions caused me to expect. I guess that might be part of why I even asked the question in the first place, though: is their approach that the wealthy are overprivileged and naturally prone to abuse those “less fortunate,” thinking they’re producing some incredibly poignant metaphor for our modern times, OR is their approach that feudalism is inherently broken for those very reasons, and therefore capitalism is actually a good thing, and the best system to allow for opportunity, etc.?

[/quote]

This isn’t a medaphor for “our modern times”, its just an accurate depiction of society. The powerful have always taken advantage of the weak. This has occured throughout human history and will continue to do so whether we have capitalism, feudalism or some other socio/economic system. It isn’t limited to humanity either. Throughout nature the strong always take advantage of the weak, whether it is a wolf achieveing alpha status in the pride by driving off the older Alpha Male, or the strongest lion getting to eat first.

Elves could be a metaphor for native americans, or they could be a metaphor for Israelite slaves in Egypt, or non-citiznes in Rome… or they could be a metaphor for one of the hundreds of groups of conquered and represed people that have existed throughout human history.

Or perhaps Elves are a metaphor for nothing and the game designers just thought that social situation would be interesting.

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:

I agree. Also, I probably shouldn’t have used the word bias, but I couldn’t think of the more appropriate term. I don’t believe they’re actively sitting there, plotting ways to indoctrinate the player into their anti-wealthy belief system.

It’s just that indoctrination into that way of thinking has gotten so bad in this country–particularly on the coasts, where most of these game companies recruit–that the designers aren’t even aware that there’s a legitimate opposing point of view (or that their own beliefs are inherently anti-capitalist [but that’s clearly my own opinion]). But that’s how I generally feel these things happen.
[/quote]
I agree completely. The middle class/suburban/college educated class definitely marinates in Marxist doctrine without even being aware of it. The biggest failure of our education system is that it doesn’t encourage critical thinking, free thought, and self examination. It produces kids who, though no supporters themselves still speak in terms taken from Marx. I can’t count how many times I have been in the middle of a discussion about capitalism with someone, and hear them define it in terms taken from Marx, and they aren’t even aware of it. Who knows, it could all be a “Communist plot” as a bitter old drunk I used to work with used to say, or just intellectual laziness and stupidity.

[quote]
This is a great point that I hadn’t thought of. Probably seeing too much red in anticipation of encountering what my own pre-conceived notions caused me to expect. I guess that might be part of why I even asked the question in the first place, though: is their approach that the wealthy are overprivileged and naturally prone to abuse those “less fortunate,” thinking they’re producing some incredibly poignant metaphor for our modern times, OR is their approach that feudalism is inherently broken for those very reasons, and therefore capitalism is actually a good thing, and the best system to allow for opportunity, etc.?

Wow, I’m probably expecting too much from my video games. But honestly, they’ve been around long enough (and their audience is supposedly now old enough) that I don’t think it’s too absurd to expect some legitimate maturity of thought in games. And no, blood, sex, and rape don’t count (which is another pet peeve of mine, but I digress).[/quote]

I’m constantly dissapointed at how little is spent on the writing for video games, especially when you compare it to the amount spent on graphics. I think you’re probably right that they are trying to make a retardedly heavy-handed and obvious metaphor for capitalism in the US, because, really, how many people know anything about feudalism? Maybe 1 in a 100. And since the system is pretty much dead it’s hardly relevant to preach about it’s short comings. It would be like preaching against sacrificing virgins to volcano gods.

I never thought it possible to make video games not fun. You fuckers have found a way. Damn all of you.

If you dont mind the fact that its a really old game, go look for Planescape Torment

its really really old, it uses the baldurs gate 1 engine, but its an amazing story

Exactly. NATURALLY.

You’re honestly upset that there are different socioeconomic classes in the game, and that the rich, upper class are subjugating the poor, lower class…in a medieval setting(where shit like that nevvvver happened…) no less?

It’d make less sense and be more infuriating if everyone was equal and got along. It’s Dragon Age, not Ivan Drago Age, comrade.

Playing this has made me want ME2 so much more. I can’t stand the staggeringly slow pace of DAO. I do appreciate the jabs at organized religion though.

Bobbeh,

Avellone worked on Fallout 2, as well.

Which brings to mind the fact that I can’t think of any better games for moral ambiguity than Fallout 1 and 2 (3 to a lesser extent [The Pitt, as Cal Jones mentioned was about it]).

And I’ll agree with Gabby 100% on the fact that the writing for some of these games just plain sucks. It’s fucking awful sometimes, on games with huge graphic budgets.

Some of the best games I’ve played are over a decade old.

[quote]Mad_Duck wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
Mad_Duck wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
… Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor…

Trust me, this analogy would be the only thing naturally springing to mind if you were a developer at EA. Trust me on this.

Hah, I’m sure that’s true. Do you still work there? If so, you should quit as soon as you get the chance, and tell them why on your way out the door. You’re not being held there against your will like the Elves, are you?

A lot of people talk about this with regard to EA, but I wonder why in the hell they stick around. Employment is a strictly voluntary arrangement on both sides. Take advantage of that. If everybody who complained about it quit, they’d probably be left with no decent talent and their games would go to shit (it’s arguable that this has already happened, but fuck that: make it even worse for them). Bring your colleagues along with you.

I went into a different sector, but a good number of people I graduated with got head-hunted by them for dream jobs. They started making enough to start families, and got all the hours of work they could want. Lately my friends have been given the choice of 60 hr work-weeks with overtime being ‘volunteer’ time, or getting laid off at the end of a project. They think their choice is feed their family they never get to see, or starve.
[/quote]

Good, so now that the economy is in the tank, EA wants to use that to their advantage by squeezing the shit out of its employees. Fine, your friends have little control right now with the unemployment rate skyrocketing. I’d still look for work, but regardless, I have two words for them: biding time. Just bide your time, suck it up, and once the economy has improved and the hiring freezes are over, get another job and tell EA to suck it on the way out. That would be my plan, at least. There will be plenty of wide-eyed recent graduates for them to lure with “dream jobs,” I’m sure.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:

I agree. Also, I probably shouldn’t have used the word bias, but I couldn’t think of the more appropriate term. I don’t believe they’re actively sitting there, plotting ways to indoctrinate the player into their anti-wealthy belief system.

It’s just that indoctrination into that way of thinking has gotten so bad in this country–particularly on the coasts, where most of these game companies recruit–that the designers aren’t even aware that there’s a legitimate opposing point of view (or that their own beliefs are inherently anti-capitalist [but that’s clearly my own opinion]). But that’s how I generally feel these things happen.

I agree completely. The middle class/suburban/college educated class definitely marinates in Marxist doctrine without even being aware of it. The biggest failure of our education system is that it doesn’t encourage critical thinking, free thought, and self examination. It produces kids who, though no supporters themselves still speak in terms taken from Marx. I can’t count how many times I have been in the middle of a discussion about capitalism with someone, and hear them define it in terms taken from Marx, and they aren’t even aware of it. Who knows, it could all be a “Communist plot” as a bitter old drunk I used to work with used to say, or just intellectual laziness and stupidity.[/quote]

I’m sure it’s the latter. The reason it’s effective, in my opinion, is that it’s couched in the language of rebellion and counter-culture trendiness. So the kids get to feel like they’re exercising independent thought as they march in lock step.

[quote]This is a great point that I hadn’t thought of. Probably seeing too much red in anticipation of encountering what my own pre-conceived notions caused me to expect. I guess that might be part of why I even asked the question in the first place, though: is their approach that the wealthy are overprivileged and naturally prone to abuse those “less fortunate,” thinking they’re producing some incredibly poignant metaphor for our modern times, OR is their approach that feudalism is inherently broken for those very reasons, and therefore capitalism is actually a good thing, and the best system to allow for opportunity, etc.?

Wow, I’m probably expecting too much from my video games. But honestly, they’ve been around long enough (and their audience is supposedly now old enough) that I don’t think it’s too absurd to expect some legitimate maturity of thought in games. And no, blood, sex, and rape don’t count (which is another pet peeve of mine, but I digress).

I’m constantly dissapointed at how little is spent on the writing for video games, especially when you compare it to the amount spent on graphics. I think you’re probably right that they are trying to make a retardedly heavy-handed and obvious metaphor for capitalism in the US, because, really, how many people know anything about feudalism? Maybe 1 in a 100. And since the system is pretty much dead it’s hardly relevant to preach about it’s short comings. It would be like preaching against sacrificing virgins to volcano gods.[/quote]

I agree. I mean, nice graphics are great and crucial, and games can almost be seen as art delivery systems in a way. But don’t make a story-driven game and skimp on the damn story. The worst is when you’re playing a game that’s supposed to take place in like, 19th century London or something, and you have to hear the main character utter some nauseating, 80s-inspired tough-guy line like “this…ends…here,” or “this is the part where you die,” or some equally childish fucking nonsense that actually causes me to feel embarrassed for the dialogue writer. I mean, grow the fuck up, man, come on. Not every game is Duke Nukem.

[quote]bobbeh wrote:
If you dont mind the fact that its a really old game, go look for Planescape Torment
[/quote]

One of the best RPGs of all time. Best thing is, it’s been rereleased on DVD so you no longer have to pay through the nose to get a busted up copy on EBay (I still have my original one, on 4 CDs - but will probably get a DVD version anyway for ease of use).
It’s a shame it wasn’t more popular at the time, but I don’t know anyone who wasn’t blown away by it.

[quote]Ronsauce wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor. This is the kind of class warfare bullshit that I expect from politicians, not video games.

Exactly. NATURALLY.

You’re honestly upset that there are different socioeconomic classes in the game, and that the rich, upper class are subjugating the poor, lower class…in a medieval setting(where shit like that nevvvver happened…) no less?

It’d make less sense and be more infuriating if everyone was equal and got along. It’s Dragon Age, not Ivan Drago Age, comrade.[/quote]

I don’t recall having expressed a problem with socioeconomic classes. The existence of poor and wealthy classes in a game does not offend me. The wealthy class “keeping down” the middle-class and subjugating the lower-class as a thinly-veiled stab at American society does offend me, yes. Particularly when that’s a load of horse shit to boot. This is why I asked if that’s what I should expect from the game. Never did I suggest that everyone should be “equal and get along,” to my recollection.

Thanks for providing an example of what I wish to avoid in the video games that I play. Contrary to the beliefs of whatever self-centered cunt wrote this game, the rest of the world doesn’t necessarily see eye-to-eye with him and his little echo chamber of enlightened, cosmopolitan pseudo-intellectuals. I’m an atheist, and still it offends me to have to sit through “jabs at organized religion” in a video game. Save that shit for the rally, asswipe. It doesn’t need to show up in my fucking fantasy role playing game for Christ’s sake.

By the way, thanks, guys, for all the game recommendations. Witcher and Planescape: Torment have been added to my list. Fallout 1-3 are already on it. Mass Effect I’ll have to look into, and Oblivion I’m in the process of finishing at this very moment.

This list will probably never be fully checked off, which probably answers an earlier question regarding how people find time to play so many games. I play them, I just never finish them.

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
By the way, thanks, guys, for all the game recommendations. Witcher and Planescape: Torment have been added to my list. Fallout 1-3 are already on it. Mass Effect I’ll have to look into, and Oblivion I’m in the process of finishing at this very moment.

This list will probably never be fully checked off, which probably answers an earlier question regarding how people find time to play so many games. I play them, I just never finish them.[/quote]

Elder Scrolls Oblivion For The WIN!

My Warrior Orc will bust your ass!

[quote]Cal Jones wrote:
bobbeh wrote:
If you dont mind the fact that its a really old game, go look for Planescape Torment

One of the best RPGs of all time. Best thing is, it’s been rereleased on DVD so you no longer have to pay through the nose to get a busted up copy on EBay (I still have my original one, on 4 CDs - but will probably get a DVD version anyway for ease of use).
It’s a shame it wasn’t more popular at the time, but I don’t know anyone who wasn’t blown away by it.[/quote]

It’s even more of a shame that they never continued it.
For once, we had a fantasy game without elves and dwarves… I like the “planescape” setting much better than the regular “forgotten realms” (or whatever it’s called).

Maybe you’re an oversensitive crybaby if you think it’s a shot being taken at American society and are offended by it. It’s not like this stuff doesn’t exist or hasn’t…especially in the Middle Ages…a period often expanded upon for fantasy entertainment such as DAO.

Maybe you should stick to Tetris or WiiSports then. Video games are a form of entertainment like movies…books…television. Sometimes, ya know, the occasional opinion or view is expressed. As games are created to cater to a more mature audience, it’s only going to happen more frequently.

I’m sure he doesn’t expect the rest of the world to agree with him. At least enough of the devlopment team and publishing team DID agree with him though to allow his writing to stand.

Quit making atheists seem like blubbering vaginas.

all this talk about rpgs, Elder Scrolls Oblivion, and ambiguity, and nobody mentioned TES: Morrowind??

pick it up if you have PC. the game’s been around for a few years now, so the mod community is robust to say the least.

[quote]Ronsauce wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:Thanks for providing an example of what I wish to avoid in the video games that I play.
Maybe you should stick to Tetris or WiiSports then. Video games are a form of entertainment like movies…books…television. Sometimes, ya know, the occasional opinion or view is expressed. As games are created to cater to a more mature audience, it’s only going to happen more frequently. [/quote]

I consider turning a video game into an opportunity to espouse your ideological zealotry to be inappropriate and amateurish. If you think it qualifies as “mature,” then we simply have a difference of opinion.

[quote]Contrary to the beliefs of whatever self-centered cunt wrote this game, the rest of the world doesn’t necessarily see eye-to-eye with him and his little echo chamber of enlightened, cosmopolitan pseudo-intellectuals.
I’m sure he doesn’t expect the rest of the world to agree with him. At least enough of the devlopment team and publishing team DID agree with him though to allow his writing to stand.[/quote]

I disagree. I believe, and have stated repeatedly, that part of the problem is the fact that ideology tends to be so ingrained that the person responsible is likely unaware that it’s even a point on which there could be legitimate disagreement. Particularly coming from a place that employs largely young, immature, recent college graduates who are fresh off four years of liberal indoctrination. It might very well be the same, but in the opposite direction, if companies like EA recruited at church and Sunday schools.

You’ve also identified part of what I consider to be the problem: in a professional development house, I would expect that kind of overt preaching not to make its way into the actual game. The fact that it was not only permitted, but is used as a selling point does speak volumes as to just how nascent the medium is.

[quote]I’m an atheist, and still it offends me to have to sit through “jabs at organized religion” in a video game.
Quit making atheists seem like blubbering vaginas.[/quote]

It’s a shame you had to sink to childish name-calling; I was enjoying the discussion. It’s also interesting that you felt the need to insult me for disagreeing with you, while at the same time accusing me of being thin-skinned.