Ideology in Dragon Age: Origins

[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
In this case, the game designers’ naive anti-capitalist beliefs totally destroy what could have been an actual interesting game within a game (and a chance to actually deliver on what they CLAIMED to provide).

[. . .]

After picking up the game on sale, I checked out the web site, and couldn’t help but notice some typical class warfare “morality” crap in the Origins section, which describes the back story of each character class that you have an option of choosing. Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor. This is the kind of class warfare bullshit that I expect from politicians, not video games that purport to offer complex, ethically nuanced decision-making that results in profound consequences.

So you believe in eternal judgment at the hand of god right?
[/quote]

The what now?

[quote]matko5 wrote:
The biggest ethical dilemma in my life (everything was clear-cut before and after, and I’m not talking just RPG games) I had when I played Baldur’s Gate 2. You have this town called Trademeet, and anyone who played a fighter-mage will know what I’m talking about. The quest with the two feuding families and the neclace both want to have. The game presents you 2 choices: give it to the one of the families (regardles which, the same will happen) or give it to the town magister.

If you give it to the one of the families, eventually a fight will break out where you kill both, and you are free to lot them. One family head has the best early armor (I dunno latter) for fighter-mage (actually, the only one since they can’t wear armor and cast spells). If you give it to the magister, you get 2000gp and that’s it.

Now you see my dilemma. I can kill someone (regardles good or bad) for my gain without consequences (nothing will change in the grand scheme of things, not even good or bad points) or do the right thing and get nothing.

Call me crazy, but talking about ethics of abortion is easier, I’m still troubled by my actions (I killed them all…)[/quote]

I think you’re being too hard on yourself. You only know the outcome of giving this item to one family because you played through it and witnessed the result. You can’t make decisions based on your ability to see into the future.

And besides, who’s to say that giving away some family’s property to somebody else is the “right thing.” That doesn’t sound like the proper way to handle that situation to me.

I guess this gets into a little of what I wrote about earlier. Not necessarily the ideological part, but the fact that you’re limited by the choices the game designers give you, and those choices are sometimes asinine and not well thought out.

In real life, would you arbitrarily toss the necklace to one family? In real life, would you say, “you both want it, so nobody can have it: give it to some undeserving third party.” Hell no, I don’t think you would. Yet some sniveling little dweeb game designer prick who could very well be a kleptomaniac has decided that A is bad and B is good. Fuck him!

I guess my conclusion is that game companies really shouldn’t be making games that advertise ethical dilemmas when the people designing that part of the game are not in the least bit qualified to do so.

I worked in the game industry for six years. Believe me when I tell you these people do not employ anyone qualified to deliver deep ethical dilemmas. Way more often than not, these development houses are packed with emotionally immature little kids; hence my hypersensitivity to just this sort of problem.

But back to my original question. I’ll go ahead and assume from the lack of responses concerning ideological bias in the game that it can’t be that huge of an issue. At some point I’ll tear the plastic off this game and find out for myself. God help me when that day comes.

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
This game is pissing me off. The combat system is terrible. One moment you’re kicking ass and then the next second 2 Ice Mages and 4 warriors jump out of nowhere and kick your ass. Whatever chance you have of fighting back is taken away because crappy combat system.

And I still haven’t fucked Morrigan. That’s the only reason I keep playing.[/quote]

This is all because you have no ‘game’.

[quote]polo77j wrote:
I love you guys, but where do you get the time to play all these video games? Wol’s in every thread about video games (I’m mainly talking to Wol)

BTW, I’m not picking on you guys, I"m genuinely curious how you find the time[/quote]

Simple, I take naps on my way home from work. And once I get home, I have no kids to take care of and I ignore my family the best I can. Pay my bills, buy beer, and buy video games. Whatever friends I haven’t scared away, I hang out with them for like an hour…then I get bored and I leave.

Key point
-Be anti-social (until you need to get laid)
-Ignore loved ones
-Sleep whenever you can

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Hey wol, have you ever played a D&D or similar game before? Is this your first swim through one?

V[/quote]

I’ve played other RPGs before. My favorite I’ve played this year: Elder Scrolls Oblivion

[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
Ghost22 wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
This game is pissing me off. The combat system is terrible. One moment you’re kicking ass and then the next second 2 Ice Mages and 4 warriors jump out of nowhere and kick your ass. Whatever chance you have of fighting back is taken away because crappy combat system.

And I still haven’t fucked Morrigan. That’s the only reason I keep playing.

It takes a lot more planning than a run-and-gun or something.

Get a tank (warrior with a shield taunt like crazy).
Get a caster (pump them with mana potions and rain hell).
Get a damage dealer (dual wield rogue or 2H warrior).
Get a healer (make sure she isn’t wasting mana on anything but healing in her AI settings).

I almost never died with that setup.

Also, give Morrigan jewelery, bitch loves it.

I killed my healer when she tried to block me while going through the Circle of Mages campaign.

Currently, I’m in Haven. I got jumped by 2 Ice Mages and 5 warriors. If I attack the mage, i get hit in the back with swords. I attack the swordsmen, fucking mage freezes us to death.

And now I have to kill Morrigans mom to get some.

That’s what you get for having your character be an asshole.

You could always have morrigan do it and just have a bunch of fighters.

Fighting mages sucks though. [/quote]

I didn’t want to kill her, she just stood in our way and I had no choice…there was no more chat options. We beat her ass.

And now I’m left with is a bunch of potions and druid witch who won’t give up the pussy.

If I could get to the two mages, I think we would have a chance of winning. And this isn’t even a fucking boss battle.

[quote]AngryVader wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
This game is pissing me off. The combat system is terrible. One moment you’re kicking ass and then the next second 2 Ice Mages and 4 warriors jump out of nowhere and kick your ass. Whatever chance you have of fighting back is taken away because crappy combat system.

And I still haven’t fucked Morrigan. That’s the only reason I keep playing.

This is all because you have no ‘game’.[/quote]

My black dwarf is gonna get some! Once he does, I’ll go back to Elder Scrolls.

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
AngryVader wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
This game is pissing me off. The combat system is terrible. One moment you’re kicking ass and then the next second 2 Ice Mages and 4 warriors jump out of nowhere and kick your ass. Whatever chance you have of fighting back is taken away because crappy combat system.

And I still haven’t fucked Morrigan. That’s the only reason I keep playing.

This is all because you have no ‘game’.

My black dwarf is gonna get some! Once he does, I’ll go back to Elder Scrolls.[/quote]

Ah…see, there’s your issue. You picked a dwarf. Now you have to find party members that are into short dudes.

[quote]AngryVader wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
AngryVader wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
This game is pissing me off. The combat system is terrible. One moment you’re kicking ass and then the next second 2 Ice Mages and 4 warriors jump out of nowhere and kick your ass. Whatever chance you have of fighting back is taken away because crappy combat system.

And I still haven’t fucked Morrigan. That’s the only reason I keep playing.

This is all because you have no ‘game’.

My black dwarf is gonna get some! Once he does, I’ll go back to Elder Scrolls.

Ah…see, there’s your issue. You picked a dwarf. Now you have to find party members that are into short dudes.[/quote]

They better be glad there’s not a rape button.

Also, I killed the gay elf assassin. Didn’t even give him a chance to join us.

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:

A good example of this in an actual game (which probably is reflective of my own inherent “bias,” for lack of a better word) would be Fable II, where raising the rent your character charged for a property resulted in you becoming gradually more “corrupt” every time your rent was collected, and less “pure.” For a game that purported to be ethically nuanced, you were treated as some kind of slumlord for simply charging more rent. They throw away an opportunity to do something TRULY nuanced, like having the going rate for rent vary depending on the neighborhood (giving you the ability to possibly affect that rate), then having high rents result in tenants who MOVE OUT (which they’re perfectly free to do), or making it easier to attract tenants with lower rent, etc. Instead, it’s literally boiled down to: charge people a lot, you’re bad; charge them little, you’re good. In this case, the game designers’ naive anti-capitalist beliefs totally destroy what could have been an actual interesting game within a game (and a chance to actually deliver on what they CLAIMED to provide).
[/quote]

Good point, though it seems to me that the problem is lazy, half-assed design, as much as anti-capitalist bias.

I think you’re off on this one. I am tired of humans always being the bad guys who rape the planet and exploit the other races or whatever it is you call an elf. That shit is old.

On the other hand the class warfare you see in a negative light is only bad in a capitalist system. In a feudal system, where the privileges of nobility are inherited, there is no upward mobility what so ever, and anyone who believed in liberty and the natural rights of man would call for “class warfare.” If I lived in such a system I couldn’t wait to hang a nobleman’s head from the city gates.

As far as wanting a game that is open and your decisions can be gray then you need to pick up The Witcher. Fucking awesome game and you can bang the shit out of a bunch of bitches throughout the game.

I have been playing Dragon Age and I’m sick of it. I started as and Elven Mage and beat the Redcliffe Quest and the Circle of Mages quest. The game is so fucking easy and is just a really cheap knockoff of D&D but hey they don’t have to pay the licensing fee this way. I felt they had the freedom to truly start over with the combat system but it blows chunks. For the most part there aren’t multiple ways to beat a boss just use a mage and you can blow the shit out of everyone.

Maybe the game gets better but I’m left wondering why all the reviewers are dangling from Deez Nutz. The story is ok but I liked it better when it was a book called “A Game of Thrones” by George R. R. Martin. They spent years on this dumb thing when they could of made Baldur’s Gate 3. BTW these graphics blow chunks bring back the 2d illustrations.

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
As far as wanting a game that is open and your decisions can be gray then you need to pick up The Witcher. Fucking awesome game and you can bang the shit out of a bunch of bitches throughout the game.

I have been playing Dragon Age and I’m sick of it. I started as and Elven Mage and beat the Redcliffe Quest and the Circle of Mages quest. The game is so fucking easy and is just a really cheap knockoff of D&D but hey they don’t have to pay the licensing fee this way. I felt they had the freedom to truly start over with the combat system but it blows chunks. For the most part there aren’t multiple ways to beat a boss just use a mage and you can blow the shit out of everyone.

Maybe the game gets better but I’m left wondering why all the reviewers are dangling from Deez Nutz. The story is ok but I liked it better when it was a book called “A Game of Thrones” by George R. R. Martin. They spent years on this dumb thing when they could of made Baldur’s Gate 3. BTW these graphics blow chunks bring back the 2d illustrations.[/quote]

x2

I think it sucks compared to other rpgs. The combat system sucks, especially if you hate mages. And its also limited. I can’t tell my party to move to certain areas.

And I like the idea of free roaming, which is why Elder Scrolls Oblivion was AMAZING!!! This game is like I’m stuck in a car and can’t get out.

Once I fuck Morrigan, I quit!

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
As far as wanting a game that is open and your decisions can be gray then you need to pick up The Witcher. Fucking awesome game and you can bang the shit out of a bunch of bitches throughout the game.

I have been playing Dragon Age and I’m sick of it. I started as and Elven Mage and beat the Redcliffe Quest and the Circle of Mages quest. The game is so fucking easy and is just a really cheap knockoff of D&D but hey they don’t have to pay the licensing fee this way. I felt they had the freedom to truly start over with the combat system but it blows chunks. For the most part there aren’t multiple ways to beat a boss just use a mage and you can blow the shit out of everyone.

Maybe the game gets better but I’m left wondering why all the reviewers are dangling from Deez Nutz. The story is ok but I liked it better when it was a book called “A Game of Thrones” by George R. R. Martin. They spent years on this dumb thing when they could of made Baldur’s Gate 3. BTW these graphics blow chunks bring back the 2d illustrations.

x2

I think it sucks compared to other rpgs. The combat system sucks, especially if you hate mages. And its also limited. I can’t tell my party to move to certain areas.

And I like the idea of free roaming, which is why Elder Scrolls Oblivion was AMAZING!!! This game is like I’m stuck in a car and can’t get out.

Once I fuck Morrigan, I quit![/quote]

PC version can handle a lot of shit the consoles can’t, kinda feel bad for you dudes… =[

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
… Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor…[/quote]

Trust me, this analogy would be the only thing naturally springing to mind if you were a developer at EA. Trust me on this.

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
They spent years on this dumb thing when they could of made Baldur’s Gate 3. .[/quote]

This.

(I want Viconia back! And the evil dwarf, whatever his name was… Korgan maybe?)

Anyone remember the Rachni scene from Noveria on Mass Effect?

To completely finish off an entire species or not? This was one of the bigger ethical dilemmas I could remember. Although it had no bearing in the first game, I hope that the second one somehow reads information from the first story and implements it into the new one - IE, if you saved the Rachni Queen, at one point, she’ll come and help defend against the Reapers or something. That’d be really cool.

And to the guy asking about how we find time to play video games… how does one find time to play a pick up game of basketball? Or hike? Or do yardwork?

Same stuff, our hobby is just much more lame (awesome.)

[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:God help me when that day comes.
[/quote]

It’s a figure of speech, dude. I’m not really asking for God’s help. Please, the last thing I want is for this thread to turn into a theological debate.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:

A good example of this in an actual game (which probably is reflective of my own inherent “bias,” for lack of a better word) would be Fable II, where raising the rent your character charged for a property resulted in you becoming gradually more “corrupt” every time your rent was collected, and less “pure.” For a game that purported to be ethically nuanced, you were treated as some kind of slumlord for simply charging more rent. They throw away an opportunity to do something TRULY nuanced, like having the going rate for rent vary depending on the neighborhood (giving you the ability to possibly affect that rate), then having high rents result in tenants who MOVE OUT (which they’re perfectly free to do), or making it easier to attract tenants with lower rent, etc. Instead, it’s literally boiled down to: charge people a lot, you’re bad; charge them little, you’re good. In this case, the game designers’ naive anti-capitalist beliefs totally destroy what could have been an actual interesting game within a game (and a chance to actually deliver on what they CLAIMED to provide).

Good point, though it seems to me that the problem is lazy, half-assed design, as much as anti-capitalist bias.[/quote]

I agree. Also, I probably shouldn’t have used the word bias, but I couldn’t think of the more appropriate term. I don’t believe they’re actively sitting there, plotting ways to indoctrinate the player into their anti-wealthy belief system.

It’s just that indoctrination into that way of thinking has gotten so bad in this country–particularly on the coasts, where most of these game companies recruit–that the designers aren’t even aware that there’s a legitimate opposing point of view (or that their own beliefs are inherently anti-capitalist [but that’s clearly my own opinion]). But that’s how I generally feel these things happen.

[quote]At any rate, now that I have that diatribe out of the way, to the question: has anyone who’s played Dragon Age: Origins–and is politically savvy enough to recognize it–noticed just that sort of ideological bullshit? After picking up the game on sale, I checked out the web site, and couldn’t help but notice some typical class warfare “morality” crap in the Origins section, which describes the back story of each character class that you have an option of choosing. Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor. This is the kind of class warfare bullshit that I expect from politicians, not video games that purport to offer complex, ethically nuanced decision-making that results in profound consequences.

I think you’re off on this one. I am tired of humans always being the bad guys who rape the planet and exploit the other races or whatever it is you call an elf. That shit is old.

On the other hand the class warfare you see in a negative light is only bad in a capitalist system. In a feudal system, where the privileges of nobility are inherited, there is no upward mobility what so ever, and anyone who believed in liberty and the natural rights of man would call for “class warfare.” If I lived in such a system I couldn’t wait to hang a nobleman’s head from the city gates.[/quote]

This is a great point that I hadn’t thought of. Probably seeing too much red in anticipation of encountering what my own pre-conceived notions caused me to expect. I guess that might be part of why I even asked the question in the first place, though: is their approach that the wealthy are overprivileged and naturally prone to abuse those “less fortunate,” thinking they’re producing some incredibly poignant metaphor for our modern times, OR is their approach that feudalism is inherently broken for those very reasons, and therefore capitalism is actually a good thing, and the best system to allow for opportunity, etc.?

Wow, I’m probably expecting too much from my video games. But honestly, they’ve been around long enough (and their audience is supposedly now old enough) that I don’t think it’s too absurd to expect some legitimate maturity of thought in games. And no, blood, sex, and rape don’t count (which is another pet peeve of mine, but I digress).

[quote]Mad_Duck wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
… Naturally, it is the horrible human “nobles” who are deplorable wealthy snobs, guilty of having enslaved the elves, and now callously subjugate those poor pathetic elves who still stick around to serve them and act as cheap labor…

Trust me, this analogy would be the only thing naturally springing to mind if you were a developer at EA. Trust me on this.[/quote]

Hah, I’m sure that’s true. Do you still work there? If so, you should quit as soon as you get the chance, and tell them why on your way out the door. You’re not being held there against your will like the Elves, are you?

A lot of people talk about this with regard to EA, but I wonder why in the hell they stick around. Employment is a strictly voluntary arrangement on both sides. Take advantage of that. If everybody who complained about it quit, they’d probably be left with no decent talent and their games would go to shit (it’s arguable that this has already happened, but fuck that: make it even worse for them). Bring your colleagues along with you.