[quote]Achilles of war wrote:
Prof X isnt saying Zane was NEVER a competitive BB, he is saying that in modern times he would NOT be successful with the physique he had in BB
So yes, a sprinter who competed in the 50’s would realize that they would not be competitive in 2011 with the same time they ran back then.
now fuck off and go do some squats
[/quote]
ok i’ll go do that i really like squats so i should enjoy this
zane would dominate physique competitions…beside if he was a bber today following the same dosing protocol as today’s competitor he would have been at least 30 pound heavier. just imagine his frame with more muscle
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I will say this though…anyone toting the line that a difference of 5-10% body fat percentage alone causes some drastic measurable damage or change to “hormone levels” is probably not someone with much background in biology.
Yeah, it is more likely the guy at 35% body fat or higher is not functioning optimally as he would at “15%”…and that goes for general health (again, everyone is different and simply being “35%” does not mean you have poor health.
It is way more of a leap to apply that to people who train several days a week with high intensity who are simply 10% body fat heavier than they would be ideally if leaned up more.
If you guys want to discuss scientific studies, let’s do so…but this “attack and name call” crap is old.
If this thread can go 15 pages without it, why add it in now?[/quote]
There is loads of anecdotal evidence that men carrying excess bodyfat run into problems with elevated E2 levels. Elevated E2 level will, in the majority of cases, cause negative feedback on the HPTA, thus lowering testosterone production.
And even if it doesnt lower testosterone to any significant degree, excess estrogen makes it easier to store fat, thus compounding the problem by creating a vicious circle. Obviously age plays a role in this as well, meaning this issue is even more important for guys whose hormonal profile is on the downturn (naturally)
“Poor health” has nothing to do with this. We’re talking about bodybuilding, or at least I thought we were. Almost nothing about bodybuilding is healthy. This is about building muscle and getting lean. For anyone who wants to attempt that without being in the best hormonal enviornment possible, be my guest. Ill just use some common sense instead.
You convenietly turned this into a discussion about poor vs optimal HEALTH. When the discussion began it was about BUILDING MUSCLE and burning fat. If you want to keep making strawman arguments Ill be forced to continue to expose them for the bullshit that they are.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
anyone think being excessively fat over 20-25% hinders muscle gain significantly?
has anyone been that fat and feel like they made decent gains?
just more random questions if thats okay. i figured it would be since this threads first and last page have nothing to do with eachother.[/quote]
The word ‘significantly’ makes your post impossible to answer. But how fat you get will have the biggest impact on insulin sensitivity. Also the fatter you get the easier it is to keep getting fat. The body likes homeostasis. Then there’s the effects on the hormone profile. These things affect people differently and some people are better at ignoring the effects than others.
What I think? It takes a lot of explaining to convince me that any man should ever get to 20% bodyfat.
[/quote]
I agree. I think being excessively fat can indirectly make it harder to build muscle and shred fat due to various pathways, hormonal imbalance being one of them. When insulin resistance is all fucked, it’s very possible that ingesting carbs can preferentially go to fat stores, not muscle tissue. You will also have more aromatose enzyme… i.e. your testosterone can be converted into estrogen.
There’s also the case of your thyroid and that more fat in your abdominal wall means less conversion from T4 to T3, but I think that doesn’t really hinder muscle gain in anyway, it just hinders fat loss (i.e. it will be harder to lose fat than it needs to be).
edit: forgot about fat cell hyperplasia. Fat cells can only increase so much until they are full of fat, after which, more fat cells will be added. You can make fat cells smaller by losing fat, but you can’t lose actual fat cells, meaning the newly created fat cells are there to stay. This means it will make it way easier in the future to store body fat, a very unnecessary thing.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
anyone think being excessively fat over 20-25% hinders muscle gain significantly?
has anyone been that fat and feel like they made decent gains?
just more random questions if thats okay. i figured it would be since this threads first and last page have nothing to do with eachother.[/quote]
The word ‘significantly’ makes your post impossible to answer. But how fat you get will have the biggest impact on insulin sensitivity. Also the fatter you get the easier it is to keep getting fat. The body likes homeostasis. Then there’s the effects on the hormone profile. These things affect people differently and some people are better at ignoring the effects than others.
What I think? It takes a lot of explaining to convince me that any man should ever get to 20% bodyfat.
[/quote]
I agree. I think being excessively fat can indirectly make it harder to build muscle and shred fat due to various pathways, hormonal imbalance being one of them. When insulin resistance is all fucked, it’s very possible that ingesting carbs can preferentially go to fat stores, not muscle tissue. You will also have more aromatose enzyme… i.e. your testosterone can be converted into estrogen.
There’s also the case of your thyroid and that more fat in your abdominal wall means less conversion from T4 to T3, but I think that doesn’t really hinder muscle gain in anyway, it just hinders fat loss (i.e. it will be harder to lose fat than it needs to be).
edit: forgot about fat cell hyperplasia. Fat cells can only increase so much until they are full of fat, after which, more fat cells will be added. You can make fat cells smaller by losing fat, but you can’t lose actual fat cells, meaning the newly created fat cells are there to stay. This means it will make it way easier in the future to store body fat, a very unnecessary thing.[/quote]
We have already covered how rare it is to add fat cells after puberty without some extreme obesity involved. Further, “excessively fat” for whom? You are discussing general hormonal issues as if simply being fatter than someone else means a disease process is going on. That isn’t science.
It is false to make the statement that you gain fat cells when fat cells get filled up. While adipocytes can grow in number, the baseline for fat cells in humans occurs during childhood and adolescence. That is why personal trainers making it seem like all people who gain weight are at risk of adding fat cells are wrong.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are discussing general hormonal issues as if simply being fatter than someone else means a disease process is going on. [/quote]
Please try to follow along with the class.
The discussion is about building muscle and losing fat. Not about diseases. Everyone seems to get this except you.
Speaking of INSULIN RESISTANCE and HORMONAL IMBALANCE describes a DISEASE PROCESS.
That’s basic biology terminology. If you speak of things putting you at risk of diabetes, that is what you call it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Speaking of INSULIN RESISTANCE and HORMONAL IMBALANCE describes a DISEASE PROCESS.
That’s basic biology terminology. If you speak of things putting you at risk of diabetes, that is what you call it.[/quote]
That’s fine.
But we’re talking about the effects of adding fat on BUILDING MUSCLE. Not on beetus risk.
Ya know, sort of how you used to speak of eating copious amounts of cheeseburgers in relation to BUILDING MUSCLE, instead of talking about the potential negative effects on the cardiovascular system.
You cant have your cake and eat it too. Sorry.
This is silly.
You always do this. You go back and forth with me. Why??
Dont you get it by now that I dont open my mouth unless I know that what Im saying isn’t wrong? And that I dont have trouble expressing myself, so you wont catch me tripping on words. Isn’t this clear by now?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
anyone think being excessively fat over 20-25% hinders muscle gain significantly?
has anyone been that fat and feel like they made decent gains?
just more random questions if thats okay. i figured it would be since this threads first and last page have nothing to do with eachother.[/quote]
The word ‘significantly’ makes your post impossible to answer. But how fat you get will have the biggest impact on insulin sensitivity. Also the fatter you get the easier it is to keep getting fat. The body likes homeostasis. Then there’s the effects on the hormone profile. These things affect people differently and some people are better at ignoring the effects than others.
What I think? It takes a lot of explaining to convince me that any man should ever get to 20% bodyfat.
[/quote]
I agree. I think being excessively fat can indirectly make it harder to build muscle and shred fat due to various pathways, hormonal imbalance being one of them. When insulin resistance is all fucked, it’s very possible that ingesting carbs can preferentially go to fat stores, not muscle tissue. You will also have more aromatose enzyme… i.e. your testosterone can be converted into estrogen.
There’s also the case of your thyroid and that more fat in your abdominal wall means less conversion from T4 to T3, but I think that doesn’t really hinder muscle gain in anyway, it just hinders fat loss (i.e. it will be harder to lose fat than it needs to be).
edit: forgot about fat cell hyperplasia. Fat cells can only increase so much until they are full of fat, after which, more fat cells will be added. You can make fat cells smaller by losing fat, but you can’t lose actual fat cells, meaning the newly created fat cells are there to stay. This means it will make it way easier in the future to store body fat, a very unnecessary thing.[/quote]
The circumstances in which the body would actually create new fat cells in an adult is so so very rare that I don’t think anyone here would have to worry about that. It is safe to say the you will never gain new fat cells unless you plan on becoming morbidly obese.
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I don’t even know what this arguement is about but austin didn’t you spend some time pretty chunkie a while back?
Back when you were posting in the 17 and 18 inch arm thread.
Good job on leaning out.
Do you think spending that time chunkie helped you develope at all?
You didn’t really lose any arm size when leaning out either right?
I know this is probably off topic and random I’m not trying to prove a point or anything, just wondering.[/quote]
I was a dumb kid. I was fat and no it did not help me in anyway shape of form except put me in a hinderance at where I could potentially be now instead of wasting time removing my 40 inch gut and triple chins.
Man I regret getting up to 260 so much, I was like 18 ish and brainwashed that you need so many calories to grow. Seeing the scale go up 1 lb a week looked so appealing to me. Damn was I dumb.
I have successfully cut weight and added muscle and a lot of strength.
I also would like to say anyone commenting on my current progress has no idea what I look like or what I lift because I have not posted anything about such so for the statement of me not making as much progress now than I did back in the day is absolute bull shit.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Speaking of INSULIN RESISTANCE and HORMONAL IMBALANCE describes a DISEASE PROCESS.
That’s basic biology terminology. If you speak of things putting you at risk of diabetes, that is what you call it.[/quote]
That’s fine.
But we’re talking about the effects of adding fat on BUILDING MUSCLE. Not on beetus risk.
Ya know, sort of how you used to speak of eating copious amounts of cheeseburgers in relation to BUILDING MUSCLE, instead of talking about the potential negative effects on the cardiovascular system.
You cant have your cake and eat it too. Sorry. [/quote]
Pretty much this. I’m not talking about it in terms of health/disease. I’m talking about it in terms of gaining muscle and losing fat in the long run.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
anyone think being excessively fat over 20-25% hinders muscle gain significantly?
has anyone been that fat and feel like they made decent gains?
just more random questions if thats okay. i figured it would be since this threads first and last page have nothing to do with eachother.[/quote]
The word ‘significantly’ makes your post impossible to answer. But how fat you get will have the biggest impact on insulin sensitivity. Also the fatter you get the easier it is to keep getting fat. The body likes homeostasis. Then there’s the effects on the hormone profile. These things affect people differently and some people are better at ignoring the effects than others.
What I think? It takes a lot of explaining to convince me that any man should ever get to 20% bodyfat.
[/quote]
I agree. I think being excessively fat can indirectly make it harder to build muscle and shred fat due to various pathways, hormonal imbalance being one of them. When insulin resistance is all fucked, it’s very possible that ingesting carbs can preferentially go to fat stores, not muscle tissue. You will also have more aromatose enzyme… i.e. your testosterone can be converted into estrogen.
There’s also the case of your thyroid and that more fat in your abdominal wall means less conversion from T4 to T3, but I think that doesn’t really hinder muscle gain in anyway, it just hinders fat loss (i.e. it will be harder to lose fat than it needs to be).
edit: forgot about fat cell hyperplasia. Fat cells can only increase so much until they are full of fat, after which, more fat cells will be added. You can make fat cells smaller by losing fat, but you can’t lose actual fat cells, meaning the newly created fat cells are there to stay. This means it will make it way easier in the future to store body fat, a very unnecessary thing.[/quote]
The circumstances in which the body would actually create new fat cells in an adult is so so very rare that I don’t think anyone here would have to worry about that. It is safe to say the you will never gain new fat cells unless you plan on becoming morbidly obese.[/quote]
Hmmm, OK. I guess I was wrong on that point. Thanks for the info (PX too).
[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Either way, the issue at hand is not black and white, and both sides have valid points but theres too many shades of gray to argue in hopes of making everyone agree. [/quote]
Ummmm is that really your hope??
As far as bodyfat is concerned there is definitely something to be said about gaining bodyfat to grow. Unless you are genetically gifted, I feel 90% of bodybuilders will gain bodyfat. It’s unavoidable for most I feel. Eating way too much though and saying, “well I am trying to grow” doesn’t mean fat won’t be gained. There is Jo reason to purposely overload on calories. There is a certain amount needed for growth. Unless you are ectomorphic, there is no need to slam calories. I Hate that shit and see it all the time. Natural bodybuilders eating like IFBB pros and assuming they will stay moderately lean. I also see it in naive guys on gear. Just bc you are trying to grow doesn’t mean eat an 18 inch pizza once a week. There’s a certain amount of calories needed to grow. And yes, there is definitely more calories needed while training in gear but I seriously think most people eat way too much.
As far as this zyzz homo is concerned, sheep liked him. People who were easily impressed. Not something it be proud of. And as far as his “personality” calling yourself the son of Zeus is a serious case of narcissism. Did he look good? Sure, but Jeff seid looks better and doesn’t market himself as, “the son of Zeus” and he looks significantly better.
This thread was as dead as Zyzz… until you resurrected it.
[quote]Slopeskull wrote:
As far as this zyzz homo is concerned [/quote]
It’s 2015. Could we stop doing this?