Iconoclastic Atheist Turns To Belief In God

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
How do atheists explain the origin of the universe?[/quote]

It’s slow at work tonight, so I’ll take this one.

“I don’t know. Could be a couple of things which we’ve dreamed up or something we haven’t even thought of yet. We may never know for sure.”

How did that sound? Kinda rolled real nice off the tongue, didn’t it? Because for now, it’s the correct answer.

I’d like to know when we decided that this should be a big game of Jeopardy, and we had to be able have some valid answer for every question, whether or not it made sense or had any chance of being answered. Saying “I don’t know” doesn’t always make you ignorant, folks. Sometimes it just makes you honest. I’d like to add though, that this is no excuse for not trying to find out more. That’s why guys like me are heartened by things like the Hubble telescope and future spaceflights to Mars, etc. The more we get out there and discover, the more we’ll have in our knowledge base. And then, maybe someday we’ll be able to say something besides “I don’t know.”

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
rainjack: Please relax. How is there any fight? I came out in this after seeing a post about how Jesus had magical powers and sped up fermentation or something, and basically expressed my exasperation at that. Nobody is pushing anything around here that I have seen, nor have I felt embattled at any point about anything.[/quote]

That’s because no one has attacked you for whatever it is you believe in. You, however, have no regard for another’s beliefs. If they happen to believe in a creator - you show absolutely no respect for those beliefs. The thing that prompted me to post on this thread was the fact that you and your little elitist friends seem to have an unquenchable desire to denegrate that which you know nothing about. That is not openminded. That is not enlightened. That is bullshit.

You’ve admitted that you have no faith. You’re proud of the fact that you only believe in empirical proof. That’s your choice and I’m fine with that. So why must I defend my faith to you who has none? Your question has nothing to do with curiosity - in your ignorance you ridicule. Why can’t you just accept the fact that there are billions of people on this earth that don’t have the same outlook as you? You will never understand it, yet you make fun of it.

Intelligence isn’t something measured by faith, or lack thereof. If you were truly curious as to how, or why intelligent folk choose to believe in a creator, that would be one thing. But you have no desire to understand - you just look down your elitist nose at something you can’t comprehend.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

That’s because no one has attacked you for whatever it is you believe in. You, however, have no regard for another’s beliefs. If they happen to believe in a creator - you show absolutely no respect for those beliefs. The thing that prompted me to post on this thread was the fact that you and your little elitist friends seem to have an unquenchable desire to denegrate that which you know nothing about. That is not openminded. That is not enlightened. That is bullshit.

I believe that our universe was created by a Giant Pink Bunnyrabbit, who strolls around my neighborhood at night wearing a yellow sombrero. He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loves carrots. I can’t PROVE he exists (he’s a sneaky S.O.B., and I can’t quite catch him, as much as I try), but I BELIEVE him to be our true and ultimate diety.

So, Rainjack, what do you think of my belief system? Based on what you’ve said above regarding “openmindedness,” I sure you’re now including my Rabbit Diety into your belief system of the universe, right? Not that I’d actually expect you to pray to my Rabbit, but you must certainly at least include him in the possible sources of our existence, right? If you don’t, why don’t you explain to us why not, since many of us are a bit confused as to when “openmindedness” is and is not appropriate…

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
mindeffer01 wrote:
All that pitty-ing from the non theists or whatever they like to be refered to as realy looks like a thinly veiled attempt at being condescending.Save your pitty, you’re going to need it.It’s also prety funny how they allude to some great knowledge of science,when historicaly any realy great man of science was also strong in faith.Want an experiment that will keep you smart guys busy? Try to quantify faith.

Would you like to try an experiment that will keep you from looking like an idiot? Try spell-check.[/quote]

Why would I use spell check when I have a proofreader like you? I guess you haven’t gotten very far along in life,like to a point where faith in something outside of yourself and other than yourself is necessary. You rail against an upbringing that wasn’t your choice like a child throwing a tantrum, without the foresight to understand that faith requires practice. This practice doesn’t come when times are good, it comes when times are bad. Like heart ripping, earth shattering bad. If you knew this and practiced faith at those times, you wouldn’t be launching such an offense against belief in something outside your (limited) realm of understanding. The arrogance of youth and lack of experience is amazing.

So, Mental Muscle, to help distinguish the difference between whether you are just throwing a tantrum, or if you actualy have a foundation for your position, answer this. Would you rather believe in something like God and find out in the end that you were wrong, or not believe in something like God and find out in the end that you were wrong? Either way I’d be interested in your rationalle.
BTW. what is your I.Q.? How was this determined? What are your numbers on Squat, bench, and deadlift. Or are you just one of those poseurs?

[quote]bamit wrote:
Bri Hildebrandt wrote:
You can’t “prove” whether god does or does not exist. You can only provide empirical evidence to strengthen your position.

For example, can anyone here “prove” that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy doesn’t exist? I didn’t think so.

I am an athiest, meaning I think there is sufficient scientific evidence to have a strong argument against the existance of a god. When you understand the science behind physics, biology, chemistry, and psychology there’s not much else left. Every “miracle” can be explained with science. The magic disappears.

Bri,
Most but not all of the miracles performed by Jesus were an example of his ability to control the laws of nature , not necessarily break the laws of nature which you refer to as physics, biology, chemistry, etc. For example, when Jesus turned water into wine, this showed his ability to speed up the process; the science behind fermentation was still there he just excelarated it. The same can be said for the drying up of the fig tree and many other miracles performed in the bible. [/quote]

You mean, if I let water stand long enough it will ferment into wine? Cool!

[quote]Boscobarbell wrote:
rainjack wrote:

That’s because no one has attacked you for whatever it is you believe in. You, however, have no regard for another’s beliefs. If they happen to believe in a creator - you show absolutely no respect for those beliefs. The thing that prompted me to post on this thread was the fact that you and your little elitist friends seem to have an unquenchable desire to denegrate that which you know nothing about. That is not openminded. That is not enlightened. That is bullshit.

I believe that our universe was created by a Giant Pink Bunnyrabbit, who strolls around my neighborhood at night wearing a yellow sombrero. He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loves carrots. I can’t PROVE he exists (he’s a sneaky S.O.B., and I can’t quite catch him, as much as I try), but I BELIEVE him to be our true and ultimate diety.

So, Rainjack, what do you think of my belief system? Based on what you’ve said above regarding “openmindedness,” I sure you’re now including my Rabbit Diety into your belief system of the universe, right? Not that I’d actually expect you to pray to my Rabbit, but you must certainly at least include him in the possible sources of our existence, right? If you don’t, why don’t you explain to us why not, since many of us are a bit confused as to when “openmindedness” is and is not appropriate…[/quote]

Who here is trying to convert anyone to any set of beliefs? That is not at issue. If you want to believe in a bunny rabbit then, by all means, believe away. I won’t belittle you because of your beliefs.

I can dismiss your beliefs - that is my choice, just as you can dismiss mine. But to publicly ridicule those who hold different beliefs than you simply because you think they are inferior, or simple, or pitiful - that is not open minded.

You want to believe in a bunny rabbit? Fine. You want to believe that we are alone and that we are our own god? Knock yourself out. What purpose is served by me calling you names, or making fun of your godliness?

You can think I’m wrong all you want. I have no problem with that. My problem is the condescending attitudes of those that know nothing of my beliefs. That is ignorant. That is close minded and that is bigoted.

Why does that confuse you? I’m not asking anyone to consider my belief system in forming their own. I’m not ignorantly hurling barbs at what anyone becasue of what they choose to believe in, or not believe in.

On a totally unrelated note - there is no pink bunny rabbit I’ve ever seen that would be caught dead wearing a sombrero.

It seems a few athiests need to be taught in the ways of using the “QUOTE” function. I have faith in the belief that it isn’t that difficult a concept to grasp. If you want to compare God or any other religious entity that embodies the ultimate power of good in this universe to a pink rabbit, that is your choice. I would be interested in what you base this faith on. What words have your rabbit left to you? What ensight has your rabbit evoked? What life lessons does your rabbit teach? Once you answer these questions, then we can accept your belief as more than ignorant ramblings attempting to degrade something you have no common respect for.

You see, it isn’t that I am trying to force my beliefs on you. I choose to believe and have the complete understanding that it would have to be your choice as well, not mine, to further any beliefs within yourself. You have made the choice to NOT believe. Fine, live with that and move on. Notice, however, that I did not compare that action with following pink elephants, rabbits or whatever it is the faithless follow. I simply ackowledge that you hold this belief (or faith) that there is no god and I go on about my business.

One thing I understand as a christian is that I am not perfect. No man on this Earth is. This means comparing all those who believe in God to the actions of the crusades is ludicrous…unless every white man in this forum plans on finally paying me my 40 acres and a mule that I deserve for my ancestors living in slavery. I am sure all of you will distance yourselves from that action as quickly as possible…but you have the audacity to act as if my faith only relates to those who abused it? Ignorance. That is the only word for what you and others are in the process of relaying. Thanks for showing us all the depth of your character. It would seem as if some NEED a little religion if this is all you have to offer the world.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
Would you rather believe in something like God and find out in the end that you were wrong, or not believe in something like God and find out in the end that you were wrong? Either way I’d be interested in your rationalle.

Using your logic, I should also believe that I have a rich uncle whom I’ve never met who will one day bestow great riches upon me. No proof for that, either, but it’s better to believe in such things than not to. Hell, why base any of life’s beliefs on those things observable, testable, disprovable, etc? Let’s just stick to believing in all the pretty things we wish were true.

lizard king,
Have you ever read and studied the bible, if so please send me a private message and we will discuss this passage in great detail? If not please do not post adolescent comments.

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:

Here is my question to you: Why are Christians sad when people die if they go to heaven? Is heaven not supposed to be a “better place?” Perhaps you are all just closet agnostics who believe only when it suits you because you feel you have something to gain from believing.

Be your own god.[/quote]

I just wanted to address this seperately. I am still saddened at the loss of my grandmother. That sadness has nothing to do with the belief that I will never be reunited with her “essence” eventually, and everything to do with the fact that she is no longer right here when I need her. She was who I talked to when I had problems or things weren’t going right. She always knew the right things to say. Because of that, I will miss her everyday because of the hole that is left without her being here. People don’t cry when losing someone because of future events. They cry because that person is longer there on this earth…in this life. If I came and took your children away and promised to bring them back in 30 years, you wouldn’t be saddened at all? If I kidnapped your wife but left a note reading, “I’ll drop her off at 9pm on December 28, 2030”, you wouldn’t worry about it? Your comment, again, was elitist and was ignorant enough to ignore the human condition. Congratulations, you are on a roll.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It seems a few athiests need to be taught in the ways of using the “QUOTE” function. I have faith in the belief that it isn’t that difficult a concept to grasp. If you want to compare God or any other religious entity that embodies the ultimate power of good in this universe to a pink rabbit, that is your choice. I would be interested in what you base this faith on. What words have your rabbit left to you? What ensight has your rabbit evoked? What life lessons does your rabbit teach? Once you answer these questions, then we can accept your belief as more than ignorant ramblings attempting to degrade something you have no common respect for.

You see, it isn’t that I am trying to force my beliefs on you. I choose to believe and have the complete understanding that it would have to be your choice as well, not mine, to further any beliefs within yourself. You have made the choice to NOT believe. Fine, live with that and move on. Notice, however, that I did not compare that action with following pink elephants, rabbits or whatever it is the faithless follow. I simply ackowledge that you hold this belief (or faith) that there is no god and I go on about my business.

One thing I understand as a christian is that I am not perfect. No man on this Earth. This means comparing all those who believe in God to the actions of the crusades is ludicrous…unless every white man in this forum plans on finally paying me my 40 acres and a mule that I deserve for my ancestors living in slavery. I am sure all of you will distance yourselves from that action as quickly as possible…but you have the audacity to act as if my faith only relates to those who abused it? Ignorance. That is the only word for what you and others are in the process of relaying. Thanks for showing us all the depth of your character. It would seem as if some NEED a little religion if this is all you have to offer the world. [/quote]

Sorry I’m ignorant in the quote function. Yes, I’m a computer retard, and fully admit it.

My Pink Rabbit has bestowed upon me all the knowledge of the universe I’ve acquired. His enlightenment allows me to grasp and understand all those things that would otherwise be beyond my mortal grasp. His life lessons are boundless, and without them I would be lost and not saved.

There, happy now? Sounds just like your god, doesn’t it? And no amount of arguing or logic or debate can refute it. Why? Because if you don’t see the wisdom of the Pink Rabbit, you are merely a RABBIT NON-BELIEVER, and thus hold a lesser opinion.

Oh, but my beliefs are just “ignorant ramblings,” right? While your belief in a similarly invisible, intangible, supernatural diety is somehow of a greater importance.

Cool your jets, Prof. The only point of my Pink Bunnyrabbit analogy is to show how it’s futile to attempt to DISPROVE the existance of anything in a debate. Which is why the conventions of logic have always dictated that the burden of proof is on the person positing the existence of something. Your god is an example.

We both see, recognize, and accept the universe in which we reside. To this you add one additional entity: a diety. Thus, the burden of proof is on you to show the evidence you’ve acquired in order to formulate that belief.

As an atheist, I really don’t give a shit about what you or anyone else believes. My position is simply that no one has shown me proof of god’s existence, and until such time they do (or until the Big Guy comes down himself to kick me in the ass)I continue to hold the position that no god exists. That you choose to believe in God, Zeus, Pan, or even my Pink Bunnyrabbit means not a wit to me.

[quote]Boscobarbell wrote:
We both see, recognize, and accept the universe in which we reside. To this you add one additional entity: a diety. Thus, the burden of proof is on you to show the evidence you’ve acquired in order to formulate that belief. [/quote]

There is no burden of proof. Faith is not on trial. That’s what sticks in the craws of the atheists. I believe. I’m not asking you to believe, nor do I need to prove that what I believe in exists. Faith is not a quantifiable value.

[quote]As an atheist, I really don’t give a shit about what you or anyone else believes. My position is simply that no one has shown me proof of god’s existence, and until such time they do (or until the Big Guy comes down himself to kick me in the ass)I continue to hold the position that no god exists. That you choose to believe in God, Zeus, Pan, or even my Pink Bunnyrabbit means not a wit to me.
[/quote]

If you don’t care - why bother posting? Did you think your pink bunny rabbit analogy was so good that it needed to be shared? Did you think you could expose some hypocrisy, and thereby make theists look even more stupid?

[quote]Boscobarbell wrote:

It seems a few athiests need to be
Oh, but my beliefs are just “ignorant ramblings,” right? While your belief in a similarly invisible, intangible, supernatural diety is somehow of a greater importance.
[/quote]

Your bunny beliefs are ignorant ramblings. You made it up. It isn’t based in any old text, doesn’t have any structure of values, and teaches no true life lessons. I didn’t make up God and wouldn’t profess to know what color “he” is. The importance of God, however, is left to the individual. I think about God daily, yet I am not what anyone would call “overly religious”. I don’t go to church as often as I did as a child and my values are also structured in what I believe to be right and wrong FOR ME. I believe in God, as has been stated many times before, because I realize the complexity and order of things that you clearly take for granted. Our concept of reality only scratches the surface. The order of electrons, neutrons, and protons are not chaotic. They have specific order and function. The force of life that intiated them is clearly not some misshappened blob of nonconformity that accidentally works every once in a while. It is a machine with purpose. You choose to ignore this and assume that it simply happened. I choose to accept the reality of this purpose and relate it to what I have learned in my own beliefs.

You have made your choice. I have made mine. Instead of even attempting to accept my choice as valid and intelligent, many in this thread have chosen to act as if it takes a lesser mind to believe and trust in God. I think, without a doubt, that this has been shown to not be the case.

My goal in life is to be better…at everything that makes me who I am. Based, in part, on my beliefs, that goal also includes helping those I have the ability to help. I am still waiting on one of you to show me why this should be pitied or thought of as being less than you. I am still waiting on being shown why the thought of a creator should be shunned simply because “he” hasn’t walked right in front of you and slapped you.

Question, do you believe in wind? Why do bumble bees fly when they are aerodynamically designed to not be able to? Science says they shouldn’t…but they do. Science comes up short on many aspects that are skipped over by evolutionists and athiests…the strongest of which is the original power of life itself.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

There is no burden of proof. Faith is not on trial. That’s what sticks in the craws of the atheists. I believe. I’m not asking you to believe, nor do I need to prove that what I believe in exists. Faith is not a quantifiable value. [/quote]

Never said this was a trial. But there is burden of proof in any debate format, whether you choose to recognize it or not. And read over the posts preceding these, as well as similar threads debating god’s existence. Theists continually equate their inability to prove with the atheists’ inability to DISPROVE. My point is that the equation is flawed.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

If you don’t care - why bother posting? Did you think your pink bunny rabbit analogy was so good that it needed to be shared? Did you think you could expose some hypocrisy, and thereby make theists look even more stupid?[/quote]

It’s called a debate, exercise for the mind. I like to test my beliefs in forums of open exchange.

And yes, as a matter of fact, I do believe that my analogy was that good. Or are you prepared to prove he doesn’t exist? Nope, didn’t think so. Which means that, thus far anyway, my Pink Bunnyrabbit remains on equal standing with all other purported dieties.

And, by the way, the terms “hypocrisy” and “stupidity” are yours, not mine. If the analogy made you feel that way, perhaps you need to further test YOUR beliefs in such open exchanges.

[/quote]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Right Side Up wrote:

The masses? When did you get your elitist membership card?[/quote]

Is the majority not “the masses”? I’m a minority in this regard, not an elitist.

Who are you referring to here? Why am I ignorant? Who am I speaking of that I am ill-equipped to opine over?

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
mindeffer01 wrote:
All that pitty-ing from the non theists or whatever they like to be refered to as realy looks like a thinly veiled attempt at being condescending. Save your pitty, you’re going to need it. It’s also prety funny how they allude to some great knowledge of science, when historicaly any realy great man of science was also strong in faith. Want an experiment that will keep you smart guys busy? Try to quantify faith.

Would you like to try an experiment that will keep you from looking like an idiot? Try spell-check.[/quote]

LOL…very good mm…funny

Why would one attempt to quantify faith and how would it be possible?

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
You believe because you NEED to believe. You are not complete unless you find something to give your meaningless life some meaning.[/quote]

I don’t believe this to be the case for all believers, and I don’t know how you could project your own experience onto rainjack’s. I think many/most believe because, well, it’s just what you do. Most come from families of faith who have never been encouraged to think in any other terms. It is indeed rare to find someone of, say, Islamic faith with Christian parents.

In the end, I agree MM that a telelogical view of life is useless. However, this has no bearing on the way one ought to lead their life.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

Do Aquinas’s arguements fail worse than your own? Explain.[/quote]

Which arguments of mine are you calling into question? Explain.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
How do atheists explain the origin of the universe?[/quote]

I’m an athiest who proudly says he doesn’t have any clue how the universe began. Shit, you’re talking about one of the most fundamentally difficult metaphysical/physical philosophical questions there is…where would I get the gaul to propose some response to this? The answer, I believe, lies in science, though – not faith.

My problem is peoples’ reluctance to admit their ignorance. The universe may very well have been “designed” and “created” by something we term “god.” However, I have no good REASON to believe this and have far better REASON to believe that the origin of the universe developed in some way that works in accord with the laws of the physical universe.

The point is, however, that the jury is and should remain out.

I’m amazed at the balls on the religous to claim they have a handle on this difficult question. And further, the balls to claim not only that their is a “designer,” but they claim to know details of him such as various attributes, intentions and desires. That’s ballsy!

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
How do atheists explain the origin of the universe?

It’s slow at work tonight, so I’ll take this one.

“I don’t know. Could be a couple of things which we’ve dreamed up or something we haven’t even thought of yet. We may never know for sure.”

How did that sound? Kinda rolled real nice off the tongue, didn’t it? Because for now, it’s the correct answer.

I’d like to know when we decided that this should be a big game of Jeopardy, and we had to be able have some valid answer for every question, whether or not it made sense or had any chance of being answered. Saying “I don’t know” doesn’t always make you ignorant, folks. Sometimes it just makes you honest. I’d like to add though, that this is no excuse for not trying to find out more. That’s why guys like me are heartened by things like the Hubble telescope and future spaceflights to Mars, etc. The more we get out there and discover, the more we’ll have in our knowledge base. And then, maybe someday we’ll be able to say something besides “I don’t know.”
[/quote]

If I scrolled all the way through and saw this response, I wouldn’t have bothered to write my own. Nicely done, Lothario.