Iconoclastic Atheist Turns To Belief In God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
Honestly, was St.Thomas Aquinas just a dumb irrational superstitious man? Their is intellectually available material for both sides of the debate. Maybe some people don’t have the sophistication to untangle the difficult problems that belief - as well as non-belief - requires but to say that there are no great arguements for belief is just not true. I think it may stem more from your ignorance and characterizations of religion rather than knowledge of your own position.[/quote]

No, St. Thomas was quite intelligent, and a great philosopher, in my opinion.

His strength, however, is not that he provided great arguments (because they all fail in the end), but that he bothered to provide arguments rather than rely solely on faith.

St. Thomas himself, though, fell back on faith in the end, no?

42

[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
[…douche]

I understand Lothario’s surprise. I often must remind myself that the masses still hold faith as a valid system for forming beliefs – it is shocking to me, as one who is utilizing faith seems to necessarily suspend their reason. And reason is what human’s do – or CAN do. [/quote]

The masses? When did you get your elitist membership card?

It’s really humerous to me when folk such as you and lothario get on here and run down those of faith, masking your fear of those who believe in something greater than themselves in elitism.

You know not of who you speak. I think that is the true barometer of ignorance. Or is it bigotry? Aren’t bigots ignorant? Yes…yes…I believe they are.

43

I find it quite amusing that the main reason that theists believe in a divine entity is because they are unable to comprehend how life and the universe could begin without any divine intervention.

So, because you are unable to fathom our beginnings, you make up some … being (omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent of course) to explain away all the answers you do not have.

Your beliefs are ridiculous! You cannot imagine a universe that had no beginning yet you have no problem with the idea that some being outside of time and space created all that exists.

Just because you do not have the understanding of biology and genetics to understand how amino acids (made out of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen) can form proteins which then form more complex chemicals, does not mean that it did not happen or that it needed some sort of divine being in order to make it happen.

lothario1132, you called rainjack a scared little boy. However, the way I see it, you are the scared little boy who is in desperate need of the “love” and “protection” from some supernatural being.

When I think about theism, I think about the all of the children in the world who believe they have a monster in their closets or under their beds. No matter how many times you tell that child there is no monster, nor how many times you open that closet door to show that there is no monster, the child still believes it is there. Why? Because the child feels fear and that fear needs an outlet, no matter how illogical it may be.

Some of us grew up and realized that the monster was not real and it was just an irrational fear–the monster was a creation of our minds.

Then there are others who, although they no longer fear the monster in the closet, their irrationality turned into a belief in a deity who loves and protects; the belief helps them deal with their loneliness, desperation, fear, or whatever other psychological disturbances they might have.

I do not hate theists. I have no animosity towards them at all. I pity them. It is sad when reality is such a terrible place that you have to invent some being to help you get through it.

44

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
I find it quite amusing that the main reason that theists believe in a divine entity is because they are unable to comprehend how life and the universe could begin without any divine intervention.

So, because you are unable to fathom our beginnings, you make up some … being (omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent of course) to explain away all the answers you do not have.

Your beliefs are ridiculous! You cannot imagine a universe that had no beginning yet you have no problem with the idea that some being outside of time and space created all that exists.

Just because you do not have the understanding of biology and genetics to understand how amino acids (made out of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen) can form proteins which then form more complex chemicals, does not mean that it did not happen or that it needed some sort of divine being in order to make it happen.

lothario1132, you called rainjack a scared little boy. However, the way I see it, you are the scared little boy who is in desperate need of the “love” and “protection” from some supernatural being.

When I think about theism, I think about the all of the children in the world who believe they have a monster in their closets or under their beds. No matter how many times you tell that child there is no monster, nor how many times you open that closet door to show that there is no monster, the child still believes it is there. Why? Because the child feels fear and that fear needs an outlet, no matter how illogical it may be.

Some of us grew up and realized that the monster was not real and it was just an irrational fear–the monster was a creation of our minds.

Then there are others who, although they no longer fear the monster in the closet, their irratinality turned into a belief in a deity who loves and protects; the belief helps them deal with their loneliness, desperation, fear, or whatever other psychological disturbances they might have.

I do not hate theists. I have no animosity towards them at all. I pity them. It is sad when reality is such a terrible place that you have to invent some being to help you get through it.[/quote]

Yet another ignorant bigot.

45

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:

Just because you do not have the understanding of biology and genetics to understand how amino acids (made out of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen) can form proteins which then form more complex chemicals, does not mean that it did not happen or that it needed some sort of divine being in order to make it happen.[/quote]

Gee, we know how amino acids can form proteins. That doesn’t explain the force of LIFE or how it started. Nothing on this planet CREATES life.

[quote]
lothario1132, you called rainjack a scared little boy. However, the way I see it, you are the scared little boy who is in desperate need of the “love” and “protection” from some supernatural being.
…
I do not hate theists. I have no animosity towards them at all. I pity them. It is sad when reality is such a terrible place that you have to invent some being to help you get through it.[/quote]

You pity those who believe in God? This can only mean that you honestly feel as if you are above those who believe and have somehow come upon more intelligence than anyone on the planet who believes in God. You pity me? Because I believe in a higher power? Pity for what exactly? I am comforted by my beliefs. I have a much firmer foundation in my values and standards because of my beliefs. Honestly, I pity anyone who apparently does not even believe in good or evil, right or wrong. It means that at your center, while you may pretend to be a balanced person, you have no solid value system. With no belief in the ultimate power of good, you simply follow the rules as long as it keeps you out of trouble or furthers your own advancement (some might even call that selfish). But I am to be pitied? You feel the NEED to be better than those around you who believe. You feel as if you are not complete unless you express your superiority. That can only mean one thing. Anyone so opposed to the belief in God that they do not feel the opposite of love (which is indifference), but have enough FEELINGS to openly condemn those who believe, is lacking something at the core. Hatred, inadequacy, despisement…these are all feelings you have shown in your retort regardless of your attempt to word it otherwise. But you pity me?

46

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Gee, we know how amino acids can form proteins. That doesn’t explain the force of LIFE or how it started. Nothing on this planet CREATES life.
[/quote]

There is nothing special about “LIFE,” Prof. X. You only find it to be special because you have it. I am sure limestone has no particular fondness of LIFE.

I do not feel I am more intelligent nor do I have a special understanding of the workings of the universe. Theism has nothing to do with intelligence. Theists are believers because there is something they are lacking in their lives and religion brings them comfort, as you so kindly admitted to in your post.

I pity you like you pity the guy on the street corner who mumbles to himself. I pity you like I pity a child who is unable to sleep with the lights off. I pity you like I pity those who truly think they were abducted by aliens or think they are Elvis reincarnated.

So you are saying that you are better than those who do not believe? Religion does not give you your values, Prof. X. You found your religion because of the values you have inherently. If human beings did not have the values we ALL hold so dear, human beings would have wiped each other out long ago–long before your God was invented.

Where were the Christian values during the Crusades? The Inquisition? The burning of witches? It is strange that I cannot think of a single horrific act upon this world that was not perpetrated by a theist.

47

All that pitty-ing from the non theists or whatever they like to be refered to as realy looks like a thinly veiled attempt at being condescending.Save your pitty, you’re going to need it.It’s also prety funny how they allude to some great knowledge of science,when historicaly any realy great man of science was also strong in faith.Want an experiment that will keep you smart guys busy? Try to quantify faith.

48

MentalMuscle -

You are just ignorant.

First off - to equate those that believe in God with being religous zealots is just to big a leap for any right thinking person to buy.

Second - no one on here is looking down their nose at you for your belief. Yet you feel the need to get on here and announce your pity for those of us who are so weak we need to believe in a higher power. As I said earlier - that is the barometer for ignorance - to discount that which you know nothing about. You just keep going and going with your little pity speech.

Do you think that by looking down your elitist nose at theists you are somehow scoring points? You are entitled to your beliefs, but why must you so ignoratnly slam those whose beliefs diverge from yours? Must be the bigotry oozing to the surface.

49

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
All that pitty-ing from the non theists or whatever they like to be refered to as realy looks like a thinly veiled attempt at being condescending.Save your pitty, you’re going to need it.It’s also prety funny how they allude to some great knowledge of science,when historicaly any realy great man of science was also strong in faith.Want an experiment that will keep you smart guys busy? Try to quantify faith.
[/quote]

Would you like to try an experiment that will keep you from looking like an idiot? Try spell-check.

50

[quote]rainjack wrote:
MentalMuscle -

You are just ignorant.
[/quote]

You know, rainjack. Your posts are not really even worth a response. Your post contains nothing but words to incite an emotional response.

However, I will humor you this time.

You label me an elitist. I am not. Plus, I am not ignorantly slamming those who believe. I am “slamming” those who believe with 17 years of knowledge of being a Christian myself. I know why you feel the way you feel; I have been there. That is what saddens me. (No, I will not use “pity”) You believe because you NEED to believe. You are not complete unless you find something to give your meaningless life some meaning.

Oh, and that is not a personal attack, rainjack. My life has no meaning either, other than the meaning I give to it myself.

Be your own god.

51

[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
Honestly, was St.Thomas Aquinas just a dumb irrational superstitious man? Their is intellectually available material for both sides of the debate. Maybe some people don’t have the sophistication to untangle the difficult problems that belief - as well as non-belief - requires but to say that there are no great arguements for belief is just not true. I think it may stem more from your ignorance and characterizations of religion rather than knowledge of your own position.

No, St. Thomas was quite intelligent, and a great philosopher, in my opinion.

His strength, however, is not that he provided great arguments (because they all fail in the end), but that he bothered to provide arguments rather than rely solely on faith.

St. Thomas himself, though, fell back on faith in the end, no?[/quote]

Do Aquinas’s arguements fail worse than your own? Explain.

52

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
I find it quite amusing that the main reason that theists believe in a divine entity is because they are unable to comprehend how life and the universe could begin without any divine intervention.

So, because you are unable to fathom our beginnings, you make up some … being (omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent of course) to explain away all the answers you do not have.

Your beliefs are ridiculous! You cannot imagine a universe that had no beginning yet you have no problem with the idea that some being outside of time and space created all that exists.

Just because you do not have the understanding of biology and genetics to understand how amino acids (made out of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen) can form proteins which then form more complex chemicals, does not mean that it did not happen or that it needed some sort of divine being in order to make it happen.

lothario1132, you called rainjack a scared little boy. However, the way I see it, you are the scared little boy who is in desperate need of the “love” and “protection” from some supernatural being.

When I think about theism, I think about the all of the children in the world who believe they have a monster in their closets or under their beds. No matter how many times you tell that child there is no monster, nor how many times you open that closet door to show that there is no monster, the child still believes it is there. Why? Because the child feels fear and that fear needs an outlet, no matter how illogical it may be.

Some of us grew up and realized that the monster was not real and it was just an irrational fear–the monster was a creation of our minds.

Then there are others who, although they no longer fear the monster in the closet, their irrationality turned into a belief in a deity who loves and protects; the belief helps them deal with their loneliness, desperation, fear, or whatever other psychological disturbances they might have.

I do not hate theists. I have no animosity towards them at all. I pity them. It is sad when reality is such a terrible place that you have to invent some being to help you get through it.[/quote]

Their are many strong reasons one can believe in God. The first reason you mention is the very one which changed the mind of well known philosopher/atheist Anthony Flew. Now anyone who is familiar with Flew knows that he is not stupid. So to point the finger at believers and make blanket statements reffering to stupidity and boogie men is ridiculous on your part.

True many believers may not be able to defend their faith with reason like an apologist but that doesn’t imply that their are no reasons. The same can be said for atheists.

How do atheists explain the origin of the universe?

53

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
It is strange that I cannot think of a single horrific act upon this world that was not perpetrated by a theist. [/quote]

Want to hear something even stranger? I can’t think of many inventions that have significantly changed the world for the better that were not created by “theists”. I have never killed someone based on their faith so why relate my beliefs to those who had? The real difference here is, no one has tried to put down athiests. Every discussion on this board about religion has been extremely civil until a couple who choose to not believe in any higher power attempt to put down those who do. You can hold onto your pity. In fact, instead, why not point out to me how my life is worse based on my faith. I don’t walk around all day yelling my prayers to all that will hear. If the topic comes up, I will discuss it, however, I have never tried to force someone to believe in God.

You mentioned that there is nothing special about life. That statement alone shows you aren’t very educated yourself on the subject. Finding signs of life is the backbone of our own space program. Life is a force that science can’t even explain…yet to you, it is nothing. You can take comfort in that I seriously doubt you will have much effect on this world around you based on anything you invent or originally conceive. I pity the man who doesn’t understand that we are all connected. I pity the man who doesn’t feel the need to give back to the community at all because of the lack of value placed on life. How many people have you helped in your life time for the sake of simply trying to enhance good instead ignoring a need?

If life is so meaningless, why are you still here? Why haven’t you committed suicide yet? What are you waiting for? What logical sense does it make to take up space on this planet when your life doesn’t matter at all? Go on, do the rational thing and please end what has no purpose. We could all use a little extra elbow room.

54

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Gee, we know how amino acids can form proteins. That doesn’t explain the force of LIFE or how it started. Nothing on this planet CREATES life.

There is nothing special about “LIFE,” Prof. X. You only find it to be special because you have it. I am sure limestone has no particular fondness of LIFE.

You pity those who believe in God? This can only mean that you honestly feel as if you are above those who believe and have somehow come upon more intelligence than anyone on the planet who believes in God.

I do not feel I am more intelligent nor do I have a special understanding of the workings of the universe. Theism has nothing to do with intelligence. Theists are believers because there is something they are lacking in their lives and religion brings them comfort, as you so kindly admitted to in your post.

You pity me? Because I believe in a higher power? Pity for what exactly? I am comforted by my beliefs.

I pity you like you pity the guy on the street corner who mumbles to himself. I pity you like I pity a child who is unable to sleep with the lights off. I pity you like I pity those who truly think they were abducted by aliens or think they are Elvis reincarnated.

I have a much firmer foundation in my values and standards because of my beliefs. Honestly, I pity anyone who apparently does not even believe in good or evil, right or wrong.

So you are saying that you are better than those who do not believe? Religion does not give you your values, Prof. X. You found your religion because of the values you have inherently. If human beings did not have the values we ALL hold so dear, human beings would have wiped each other out long ago–long before your God was invented.

Where were the Christian values during the Crusades? The Inquisition? The burning of witches? It is strange that I cannot think of a single horrific act upon this world that was not perpetrated by a theist. [/quote]

Of course limestone has no fondness of life because it has no conscious.

Nothingness is what rocks dream about -
Aristotle

Just because one is a believer doesn’t mean they have to check their intellect at the door.

Different cultures inherit different values. But who is closer to the truth and goodness?

Is anyone here defending the Crusades?
You do not judge a religion or philosophy by it’s abuse.

How about the Gulag?

55

[quote]MentalMuscle wrote:
rainjack wrote:
MentalMuscle -

You are just ignorant.

You know, rainjack. Your posts are not really even worth a response. Your post contains nothing but words to incite an emotional response.

However, I will humor you this time.

You label me an elitist. I am not. Plus, I am not ignorantly slamming those who believe. I am “slamming” those who believe with 17 years of knowledge of being a Christian myself. I know why you feel the way you feel; I have been there. That is what saddens me. (No, I will not use “pity”) You believe because you NEED to believe. You are not complete unless you find something to give your meaningless life some meaning.

Oh, and that is not a personal attack, rainjack. My life has no meaning either, other than the meaning I give to it myself.

Be your own god. [/quote]

Why does my faith sadden you? When you use words like ‘pity’ and ‘sadden’, you propose to tell me why I believe in God, and you have the audacity to think for one second that you’ve walked even a single step in my shoes - yes you are an elitist. You are ignorant. And you are a bigot.

I could care less about eliciting an emotional response from you. When I smell dogshit - I usually speak up and ask everyone around me to check their shoes. You, my elitist friend, have dogshit on your shoe. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And just to clear one thing up - I don’t NEED to believe in God. It’s a little thing called free will. I CHOOSE to believe in God. And for you to ‘pity me’ or be ‘saddened’ by my choice just shows the level of elitism that you have attained. Something you are proud of, I’m sure.

56

Just to set things straight: MentalMuscle, rainjack called ME a scared little boy. And a sad one. I think that maybe I offended him so much
that he just kinda flipped out a little. Please try to relax about the “pity thing”. All you do is piss people off that way. Do you want this thread to devolve into name-calling? It’s almost too late already.

rainjack: How am I scared? There’s two kinds of faith in this world, buddy. The one based on fear (Do as I say or go to Hell) and the one based on humility (There is a higher mystical intelligence greater than myself). I am completely dispossessed of both of these. I am not the least bit afraid or even bothered by your superstition. Although I am a bit amazed at it.

Okay. All y’all religious folk out there… If possible, could you please explain to me how religion and superstition are different in their makeup? What I’m trying to say is how is the belief in God anymore reliant on anything else besides faith or what have you anymore than the belief in alien visitors from another planet poking us in the butt with a big metal hoobajoob? Or how walking under a ladder is bad luck? Or whatever? Keep in mind that if you point to the bible as proof, I will remind you that we have scientific and measured evidence from NASA which provides almost undeniable evidence about the existence of alien UFOs. And I daresay that the modern instrument is a bit more reliable than a story from a 2000 year old book.

You will not be able to do this. Because religion is superstition. Breaking a mirror is not always followed by bad luck. Praying to God will not always work. Our lack of knowledge of something is not some reason to anthropomorphize stuff. Just because I don’t understand why gravity makes me fall down so hard after I drink twenty-five beers, doesn’t mean that I’m going to start thinking that there’s some intelligent force in control of gravity who is judging me, and trying to tell me that I shouldn’t go on drinking binges.

I think it’s ironic that the history of Christianity is dotted here and there with witch-burning, because y’all are no different from the witches in your base reasoning for your belief systems.

“If I do (fill in the blank), then (fill in the blank) will happen.”

But the cause and effect are not linked in any way. Burning mandrake root will not make you rich. Dipping your child’s head in holy water will not give him entrance to some utopian afterlife. But… just in case, better do it anyway, right? Because look at the alternative (hell). Better watch out for those black cats, too. Do you see where I’m going with this, guys?

57

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

…Now anyone who is familiar with Flew knows that he is not stupid. So to point the finger at believers and make blanket statements reffering to stupidity and boogie men is ridiculous on your part.

…Just because one is a believer doesn’t mean they have to check their intellect at the door.
[/quote]

I never said that believers are stupid. If you inferred that from what I said, then I apologize. In fact, I think that Prof. X is quite intelligent, articulate and well-versed in many subjects. I enjoy reading most of his posts on the other forums–I just happen to disagree with him on the existence of God.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You mentioned that there is nothing special about life. That statement alone shows you aren’t very educated yourself on the subject. Finding signs of life is the backbone of our own space program. Life is a force that science can’t even explain…yet to you, it is nothing.[/quote]

You are right; finding life seems to be what is driving our space program. It is the scientific search for a better understanding of our universe. But why search for life? Why not just have faith that it is there and leave it at that? It is a good thing we did not leave it up to the Fundamentalists to explore the stars. If so, we would have never left the ground.

I will just ignore your ad hominem attacks for the sake of civility. Yes, we non-believers can be civil without believing that some Head Honcho is constantly looking over our shoulders.

If you had fully read my post, you would have noticed that I said my life has meaning that I give to it. However, your insistence on my suicide says a lot about your so-called values as a Christian.

Here is my question to you: Why are Christians sad when people die if they go to heaven? Is heaven not supposed to be a “better place?” Perhaps you are all just closet agnostics who believe only when it suits you because you feel you have something to gain from believing.

Be your own god.

58

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Just to set things straight: MentalMuscle, rainjack called ME a scared little boy. And a sad one. I think that maybe I offended him so much that he just kinda flipped out a little. Please try to relax about the “pity thing”. All you do is piss people off that way. Do you want this thread to devolve into name-calling? It’s almost too late already.

rainjack: How am I scared? There’s two kinds of faith in this world, buddy. The one based on fear (Do as I say or go to Hell) and the one based on humility (There is a higher mystical intelligence greater than myself). I am completely dispossessed of both of these. I am not the least bit afraid or even bothered by your superstition. Although I am a bit amazed at it.

Okay. All y’all religious folk out there… If possible, could you please explain to me how religion and superstition are different in their makeup? What I’m trying to say is how is the belief in God anymore reliant on anything else besides faith or what have you anymore than the belief in alien visitors from another planet poking us in the butt with a big metal hoobajoob? Or how walking under a ladder is bad luck? Or whatever? Keep in mind that if you point to the bible as proof, I will remind you that we have scientific and measured evidence from NASA which provides almost undeniable evidence about the existence of alien UFOs. And I daresay that the modern instrument is a bit more reliable than a story from a 2000 year old book.

You will not be able to do this. Because religion is superstition. Breaking a mirror is not always followed by bad luck. Praying to God will not always work. Our lack of knowledge of something is not some reason to anthropomorphize stuff. Just because I don’t understand why gravity makes me fall down so hard after I drink twenty-five beers, doesn’t mean that I’m going to start thinking that there’s some intelligent force in control of gravity who is judging me, and trying to tell me that I shouldn’t go on drinking binges.

I think it’s ironic that the history of Christianity is dotted here and there with witch-burning, because y’all are no different from the witches in your base reasoning for your belief systems.

“If I do (fill in the blank), then (fill in the blank) will happen.”

But the cause and effect are not linked in any way. Burning mandrake root will not make you rich. Dipping your child’s head in holy water will not give him entrance to some utopian afterlife. But… just in case, better do it anyway, right? Because look at the alternative (hell). Better watch out for those black cats, too. Do you see where I’m going with this, guys?[/quote]

Has anyone on this thread made any attempt to push their beliefs on you? Go ahead, re-read this thread and tell me that someone, anyone has pushed their belief in a creator on you.

You are free to believe what you want. The fearful and ignorant believe there is a fight where there is none. And void of any such fight, they tear down their perceived enemies with insults. Has there been any insults thrown your way because you don’t believe in a creator? I haven’t seen any on this thread. Yet you come out with the insults flying - hence my assumption that you are scared, and ignorant.

There is no proof. Period. I have no demonstrable proof that there is a God. You have no demonstrable proof that there is not. What you have are your beliefs. Tell me why yours are so superior to mine that you must throw insults at, and decry mine?

You have dogshit on your shoes as well.

59

rainjack: Please relax. How is there any fight? I came out in this after seeing a post about how Jesus had magical powers and sped up fermentation or something, and basically expressed my exasperation at that. Nobody is pushing anything around here that I have seen, nor have I felt embattled at any point about anything.

And as to your answer: Are you admitting that your “theism” is equal to superstition or not? Just curious. I’m not trying to belittle anybody here. I have respect for y’all, you just kinda shock me sometimes, that’s all.

What I mean by that is that here we have a forum FILLED with intelligent, respectable, reasonable folks who don’t mince words and have firm and reasonable beliefs about why we are in Iraq, where the country is going with respect to social issues like abortion and gay marriage, and then, at the same time, also think that some guy walked on water. Okay, that’s cool. It’s just unexpected to me that y’all should hold such strong, religious, biblical views as well. Sorry if I pissed anybody off, but… I am a natural smart-ass. I guess that sometimes I don’t express myself very well.

60

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There is no proof. Period. I have no demonstrable proof that there is a God. You have no demonstrable proof that there is not. What you have are your beliefs. Tell me why yours are so superior to mine that you must throw insults at, and decry mine?[/quote]

I also wanted to address this real quick. I do not think I am superior to anybody else. But I am more grounded in reality… for one reason. I have no faith. The stuff I believe in is provable and empirical. Which means that what I believe in changes from time to time, and that’s okay. I will admit that I have very little in the way of answers to the big philosophical questions, because most of those questions are unanswerable to begin with. Mental traps, if you will. What is the meaning of life? That’s like asking what is the meaning of the color red. It makes no sense unless you pretend that there has to be some underlying purpose to everything. Then, when what I pretend to be the purpose doesn’t match what you pretend to be the purpose, we end up arguing about it. How much sense does that make?

[quote]You have dogshit on your shoes as well.
[/quote]
Yeah, maybe I do. But at least I can wipe it off.