I Wonder if Crossfitters................

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[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

My point being that do you think maybe there are a SHIT ton of woman who just lift weights cause they are employed, married and mothers? Do you think maybe there is shit going on in life that doesnt make the internet? [/quote]

I’m sure there are.

But, do you think this group of women would, on average, be stronger than powerlifters or members of T-Nation? If so, why?

Chances are, if a 225 bench is rare among women who train and compete specifically to maximize their bench, its rare everywhere.[/quote]

Why cause not many women go into PL that is evident by what was stated earlier. Not many women go into porn but there are women who do have sex outside video and the internet.

Your second point may be true, however like I have already stated, my argument was about what Rod stated. HE HAS in his experience which is NOT associated with PL meets, BUT in a totally different country and culture it is not AS rare. He has spent the last X number of years with women who can train daily, exercise, sleep and eat well with the military. They also are probably not competing in a PL meet in the US. You do not believe him WHY?

[/quote]
I don’t believe him because it is very unlikely that the women he associates with are on average significantly stronger than female powerlifters. And even if by for some crazy reason they are, they certainly aren’t representative of the average population (who is almost certainly weaker than PL’ers on average). I’d be willing to accept that the military may have some strong benchers. Certainly when my wife competed at the World Police and Fire games, there were a lot of good benches but basicaly no good deadlifters. But again, that isn’t representative of the average female.

Mainly, I don’t believe him because, having followed female powerlifting very closely (my wife is quite competitive in it) at both the national (Canadian) and international level, I know how rare this actually is. Particularly for women who aren’t very big (as per my original comment) and don’t use steroids.

If I were to tell you that 500 lb benches were common for guys, you would (obviously) think I was wrong. If I were to tell you that sub 11 seconds in the 100m for women was common, you’d immediately know I was wrong.

My point is that saying 225 is common for females - particularly small ones (and ones that aren’t on drugs) - is so far from being realistic that it can be dismissed out of hand (much like my comment about seeing a woman fly by flapping her arms). IMO it is far more likely that he is either looking at a very extreme sample, or he is simply forgetting all the average lifters he’s seen.[/quote]

You have valid points with this post, and yes his perspective is skewed that is what I was saying. BUT does that make his statement for himself wrong?

A Quaker would probably tell you that he rarely sees black people, there are a lot of black people in the world. He just never sees them and would say that maybe there are not that many out there. THAT was my point and also you have the same perspective you have blinders on to the PL world and so you want to associate that fact to every aspect.

I personally just dont find it as impossible as you do, am I wrong hell yes could be. I dont have a perspective like you or Rod, I just dont think anybody should be quick to dismiss someone else perspective in life. [/quote]

Well, in addition to PL, I do lift in commercial gyms (although less frequently these days). I’ve never seen a woman try 185 at a commercial gym let alone 225. Have you?

I also semi-regularly read the PW section here. I’ve yet to hear of a single T-Nation woman bench this much. I would think that the PW section has, on average, lifters that are stronger than the general gym-going public.

I also did post the exrx.net strength standards. 225 is above the elite for the heaviest category. I’m sure if you looked up strenth standards at other sites, you would see the same thing.

I guess where we disagree is that I think 225 at almost any bodyweight (let alone < 150) is world class which would in turn imply that it is rare.

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I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.

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[quote]Hallowed wrote:
I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.

[/quote]

Yes I was wondering this too.

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Just got in the new plusa today . They had the top 50 all time men and women bench press list.
This list will of course have geared lifters, raw lifters, and steroid users which I can’t say who did or didn’t .

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Well, the top male bench was 365 done raw, top female bench 319 with a shirt . The male was mike Booker. The female was Janet Faraone. I think I met her once and if it was her she definitely was using.

Chuck Dunbar did 325 without a shirt for #4. Joe Cunha did 323 for #6. Harold Escobedo did 319 for number ten. The last two were Also raw. I counted 12 other shirtless benches .

For women Mary Jeffrey- Ryan did the highest shirtless bench with 231.5 for tenth place. I counted two other raw benches.

The fiftieth male on the list , Patrick Morehead,did 265. He would be second all time on the women’s list. Number fifty on the gals list at 192.9 was amber Denmon, done with a shirt .

192.9/265 is 72.8% At the top 319.7/365 is 87.6%. Remember he was shirtless. I think it’s safe to sat at the top end he would get 50+ lbs from a shirt. That would be 77%.

So it looks to me at all time best the gals hit about 3/4 the boys weight. I think you find on average that gap increases as bodyweight increases. Remember there are 97lb and 105 classes under the 114 for the women.

When I lifted there might not be three lifters in the 114s. It was the least competitive class for the men. In my first three meets which were at 132 there were 7,6,and 7 lifters. This was one federation day if anyone remembers .

Now if we take lifters of lower class rank , not elite I’m willing to bet the gap increases. Say class 1 or 2 lifters for both. Just a comparison of the differences should tell you something .

Then after all that research you’ll see raw ,drug free women bench presses will be extremely rare.

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[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I think this thread is a good demonstration of a common logical fallacy: appeal to probability. We know women CAN bench 225. In Rod’s case, he’s seen it more than once, apparently. The fallacy is thinking that because it can happen or because the individual has seen it that it must happen often, or that it isn’t rare. I have to agree with O’Boile and Tom in that it is far more likely he’s seen it a few times but has forgotten the innumerable non-225 benches. I would be willing to guarantee that even among women in the military it is rare, let’s say less than 5%. We all are victim to logical fallacies far too often for me to believe otherwise.[/quote]

I’ve seen a fair bit of over 225 women’s benches, but most used steroids and shirts. It’s not nice to break confidence with what people tell you so I won’t say who . But it’s easy to guess.

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I agree 100% with you.

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

My point being that do you think maybe there are a SHIT ton of woman who just lift weights cause they are employed, married and mothers? Do you think maybe there is shit going on in life that doesnt make the internet? [/quote]

I’m sure there are.

But, do you think this group of women would, on average, be stronger than powerlifters or members of T-Nation? If so, why?

Chances are, if a 225 bench is rare among women who train and compete specifically to maximize their bench, its rare everywhere.[/quote]

Why cause not many women go into PL that is evident by what was stated earlier. Not many women go into porn but there are women who do have sex outside video and the internet.

Your second point may be true, however like I have already stated, my argument was about what Rod stated. HE HAS in his experience which is NOT associated with PL meets, BUT in a totally different country and culture it is not AS rare. He has spent the last X number of years with women who can train daily, exercise, sleep and eat well with the military. They also are probably not competing in a PL meet in the US. You do not believe him WHY?

[/quote]
I don’t believe him because it is very unlikely that the women he associates with are on average significantly stronger than female powerlifters. And even if by for some crazy reason they are, they certainly aren’t representative of the average population (who is almost certainly weaker than PL’ers on average). I’d be willing to accept that the military may have some strong benchers. Certainly when my wife competed at the World Police and Fire games, there were a lot of good benches but basicaly no good deadlifters. But again, that isn’t representative of the average female.

Mainly, I don’t believe him because, having followed female powerlifting very closely (my wife is quite competitive in it) at both the national (Canadian) and international level, I know how rare this actually is. Particularly for women who aren’t very big (as per my original comment) and don’t use steroids.

If I were to tell you that 500 lb benches were common for guys, you would (obviously) think I was wrong. If I were to tell you that sub 11 seconds in the 100m for women was common, you’d immediately know I was wrong.

My point is that saying 225 is common for females - particularly small ones (and ones that aren’t on drugs) - is so far from being realistic that it can be dismissed out of hand (much like my comment about seeing a woman fly by flapping her arms). IMO it is far more likely that he is either looking at a very extreme sample, or he is simply forgetting all the average lifters he’s seen.[/quote]

You have valid points with this post, and yes his perspective is skewed that is what I was saying. BUT does that make his statement for himself wrong?

A Quaker would probably tell you that he rarely sees black people, there are a lot of black people in the world. He just never sees them and would say that maybe there are not that many out there. THAT was my point and also you have the same perspective you have blinders on to the PL world and so you want to associate that fact to every aspect.

I personally just dont find it as impossible as you do, am I wrong hell yes could be. I dont have a perspective like you or Rod, I just dont think anybody should be quick to dismiss someone else perspective in life. [/quote]

Well, in addition to PL, I do lift in commercial gyms (although less frequently these days). I’ve never seen a woman try 185 at a commercial gym let alone 225. Have you?

I also semi-regularly read the PW section here. I’ve yet to hear of a single T-Nation woman bench this much. I would think that the PW section has, on average, lifters that are stronger than the general gym-going public.

I also did post the exrx.net strength standards. 225 is above the elite for the heaviest category. I’m sure if you looked up strenth standards at other sites, you would see the same thing.

I guess where we disagree is that I think 225 at almost any bodyweight (let alone < 150) is world class which would in turn imply that it is rare.
[/quote]

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definition of RARE (adjective) : not occuring very often, not found in large numbers. If say rare is 1% of 100 anything, then 1% of 6 billion people is 60 million people. Now half of that 60 million are women and you have 30 million women who could conceivably bench 225. Sorry I just dont buy it when you consider that 65% of americans over the age of 18 are fat or obese. The famine in Africa dessimating the continent, other nations being small and undernorished, much less the training Ethos that goes into achieving such number for BOTH men and women…That is not to say that it is not possible. Just highly unlikely and VERY RARE.

I am siding on the side of TOM63 with this one…with the EXCEPTION of ALL the (would kick my sorry ass) women on this site 90% of the women in the commercial establishment I have worked out in over the last 20 years are more likely to be reading Cosmo while doing shit on the dreadmill than actually trainng with barbells, dumbells, chains, bands or releasers : ) just my $0.02 worth.

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[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
definition of RARE (adjective) : not occuring very often, not found in large numbers. If say rare is 1% of 100 anything, then 1% of 6 billion people is 60 million people. Now half of that 60 million are women and you have 30 million women who could conceivably bench 225. Sorry I just dont buy it when you consider that 65% of americans over the age of 18 are fat or obese. The famine in Africa dessimating the continent, other nations being small and undernorished, much less the training Ethos that goes into achieving such number for BOTH men and women…That is not to say that it is not possible. Just highly unlikely and VERY RARE.

I am siding on the side of TOM63 with this one…with the EXCEPTION of ALL the (would kick my sorry ass) women on this site 90% of the women in the commercial establishment I have worked out in over the last 20 years are more likely to be reading Cosmo while doing shit on the dreadmill than actually trainng with barbells, dumbells, chains, bands or releasers : ) just my $0.02 worth.[/quote]

What you say is true . I think some of this comes from
An attitude of I can do it just like the boys do , which women can if you talk effort , focus , and changing your strength levels , leaness or muscle mass.

But in that competitive attitude comes sometimes unrealistic goals
. Women can drastically increase their strength for example. But very few will approach average trained male strength levels to elite.

I picked the bench for the old easy to compare because so many do it.
I’m not putting down any lady’s efforts or trying to insult
. This is why we have weight classes, sex divisions , and age divisions.

The progress a dedicated female lifter can make is outstanding and IMO can be mire dramatic since so many women have not done much physically in their lives . Three to six months can make an incredible change in strength, physique appearance, and fitness . You just need to get your shit together and push yourself .

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[quote]killerDIRK wrote:

I am siding on the side of TOM63 with this one…with the EXCEPTION of ALL the (would kick my sorry ass) women on this site… [/quote]
I’ve no doubt the women on this site train harder (and are stronger) than the typical female gym goer. However, even here I’m fairly certain there isn’t a single 225 lb bencher. I’m pretty sure there isn’t a 200 lb bencher and only a handful that can do 165. That’s not intended to be a slight on them, but rather an illustration on just how hard it is for a (natural) woman to bench big weights.

Building on what Tom said, I think a lot of guys just don’t realise what a good bench for a woman is. In commercial gyms I get far more respect from other guys than my wife does, despite the fact that she’s much better lifter. She gets the same at her work. There are lots of guys there who might weigh 190-200 and bench 250-300 and they regularly get asked for training advice meanwhile the girl who weighs 115 and can bench 135 is ignored despite the fact that this is a far greater accomplishment.

The simple reality is that women don’t have the same amount of upper body muscle (they are much closer when it comes to the legs). They’re also usually lighter. A 200 lb guy isn’t very rare. A 200 lb woman is likely either quite tall or fat. You simply don’t see a lot of natural women walking around > 160 and lean (again, unless they are tall which will also hurt their bench).

The combination of these two things: smaller overall and proportionally less upper body muscle makes a huge difference.

A woman who can bench her bodyweight has my respect (along with many who can’t). She’s most likely trained seriously for some time in order to accomplish that.

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tom63 all over this bitch mothafucka!

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[quote]killerDIRK wrote:

…with the EXCEPTION of ALL the (would kick my sorry ass) women on this site [/quote]

You a crossfitter?

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[quote]Hallowed wrote:
I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.

[/quote]

Raw, my only guess would be LilPower. I’m not sure about Black Widow who posts on a log. She’s strong but I’m not sure what her bench is.

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When did it suddenly become acceptable to accuse people of being steroid users absent a test? Tom63 has listed a number of women, by name, as steroid users. What happened to ‘these people have careers and employers and don’t need the slander of a steroid accusation surrounding their name?’

EDIT: InkCreep gets a pass because he posts about a celebrity. Gossiping about celebrities is never against etiquette.

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[quote]Hallowed wrote:
I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.
[/quote]

I think I tried to ask this too, there are quite a few guys who do 405+ but can’t think of any women on this site. Another thing to consider for you who think 225 for women is not rare in a gym, what are the guys putting up in those gyms? If some guys are doing 500+ then you’ll need to up the womens to more than 225 for a fair comparison. The original quote was comparing 405men vs 225 women.

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Sittin on a mountaintop, beatin my drum…

What some of you fail to realize is that I have repeatedly said “In MY travels and experience…” I don’t view that benchmark as rare, as I’ve encountered more than enough ladies who have done this to call it rare, from MY perspective. To say I’m wrong for sharing MY own personal perspective is idiotic at best. Were the ladies in question juicing? Considering we are subject to random/monthly drug tests, I think it’s unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

As for you PL stats and such, I can only invite you to such tropical locales like Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan, where all most of us have to do in our spare time is train. Wake up, train, eat, work, eat, work, train, eat, sleep, repeat.

Get off your high-horses, fellas. My experiences are not everyone else’s. Only mine. Doesn’t make me wrong.

And seeing as how I take great solace simply being in a gym, I remember a lot more goings-on than I forget. I tend to remember females that work under the bar, regardless of how much weight is on there. But…again, I am probably wrong on that one, too. lol

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Don’t be a baby, words mean things. The word rare has a certain meaning . Statistically it’s rare in the female population . Its rare in the lifting population. What you observed is what you observed but your interpretation of it is incorrect.

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[quote]Otep wrote:
When did it suddenly become acceptable to accuse people of being steroid users absent a test? Tom63 has listed a number of women, by name, as steroid users. What happened to ‘these people have careers and employers and don’t need the slander of a steroid accusation surrounding their name?’

EDIT: InkCreep gets a pass because he posts about a celebrity. Gossiping about celebrities is never against etiquette.[/quote]

Have you ever met Rebecca Swanson? Seen her in person? Are you actually this obtuse?

How many guys here have help get a squat suit off a woman who was trying 700 lbs? I mentioned flo Jo and she was widely accused
. Marion jones was popped with a drug test . Flo Jo is dead and Marion jones employer sure knows.

If you’re around this stuff you have a darn good idea who has used , especially if they’re a woman .

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[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Hallowed wrote:
I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.
[/quote]

I think I tried to ask this too, there are quite a few guys who do 405+ but can’t think of any women on this site. Another thing to consider for you who think 225 for women is not rare in a gym, what are the guys putting up in those gyms? If some guys are doing 500+ then you’ll need to up the womens to more than 225 for a fair comparison. The original quote was comparing 405men vs 225 women.[/quote]

225 for a woman might be closer to 500. Maybe not. I just picked weights based on plates per side. I recall one gal in a gym doing it raw.

But look at the top 114, a fairly popular women’s weight class. One raw 225 or more lift. Hell, they were only four raw benches in the top fifty over 190.

Great for a gal yes. But these are the top fifty competition benches of all time for women . Last on the men’s list is second on the women’s . Now if we get normal weight training women we’re going to deal with 114-165. After that you’re getting in big gal territory . And 225 won’t be very much in any man’s weight class.

Ask yourself, if you see a 181 guy bench 225 are you impressed? Now make that a 181 woman . Most will be shocked .

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[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:

[quote]Hallowed wrote:
I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.

[/quote]

Raw, my only guess would be LilPower. I’m not sure about Black Widow who posts on a log. She’s strong but I’m not sure what her bench is.[/quote]
I’d forgotten about her. I’m not sure if she’s done it as I don’t regularly read her log, but if she hasn’t she’s close.

I’m no expert on the army, but I’ve never seen a woman in uniform that had a build like her’s.