[quote]Grove wrote:
[quote]davyboy wrote:
hate hate arms
do a few dips after chest shoulder day and a few curls after back…but do i hate em
[/quote]
Work some CGBP and some chins in and you’ll never have to do another dip or curl…
Chins blow my arms up way more than curls ever did. But I could never give up dips.[/quote]
ya will give that a go do about 9sets of pullups ,a few chins wont hurt
[quote]davyboy wrote:
[quote]Grove wrote:
[quote]davyboy wrote:
hate hate arms
do a few dips after chest shoulder day and a few curls after back…but do i hate em
[/quote]
Work some CGBP and some chins in and you’ll never have to do another dip or curl…
Chins blow my arms up way more than curls ever did. But I could never give up dips.[/quote]
ya will give that a go do about 9sets of pullups ,a few chins wont hurt [/quote]
dont mind the dips actually its cabel stuff im not mad on
[quote]Grove wrote:
[quote]56x11 wrote:
[quote]Grove wrote:
[quote]davyboy wrote:
hate hate arms
do a few dips after chest shoulder day and a few curls after back…but do i hate em
[/quote]
Work some CGBP and some chins in and you’ll never have to do another dip or curl…
Chins blow my arms up way more than curls ever did. But I could never give up dips.[/quote]
If you can get optimal biceps development from just chins (and variations), you’re a lucky man.
You’re also in the minority.
Most people, eventually, will need to incorporate some form of curls into their routine for best results.
I’ve performed pretty much every variation on the pull ups and chin ups imaginable. In the Your ‘Big 3’ thread in this subforum, I even mentioned a movement that most would find…unique (although the principle behind it is nothing new). But my biceps really didn’t start to attain that ‘wow’ factor until I began to intelligently incorporate some curling. And this is true with a great majority of folks I work with.
And before anyone gives that tired cliche of gymnasts they see on tv…well, if they’re good enough be on a televised event, they’re also national level or world class; so it’s not a stretch to say they’ve been dealt a pretty decent genetic hand which would respond to just pull ups and chin ups.
[/quote]
Yea, I kind of agree with you. Davyboy said he hated hated training arms, and I was just suggesting a less isolating movement that has worked well for me. I probably shouldn’t have said ‘never’ though. I can’t really do curls anymore. They cause too much pain after a while on inside of my elbow.
And since I started doing chin variations, my arms have never looked fuller, even more so than when I was knocking out tons of curls. Maybe not “optimal” development as you put it, but that’s not really what i’m going for. I find that as I strengthen the whole body through the main lifts, and chins, rows, dips, my arms naturally follow. [/quote]
Disclaimer and advanced apology to the OP as this is unrelated to his topic.
Grove, I know exactly where you’re coming from. For the longest time I just focused on weighted pull ups and one arms as real-world strength was a priority for me. Eventually, as my goals shifted towards a balance of looking the best I can as well as being as strong as I can, I got that itch.
What added to the frustration was that my Dad, who really didn’t lift much weights, had that full and peaked shape. And all he did was the basic PT as an Army MP(!)
So I went through a phase in which I made it a priority to see just how much I can master the movements AND actually have the development to show for it. Now, I’m at the stage of making up for lost time (although bicep training is no longer a priority).
I view direct bicep work as helping my pulling movements (in the same manner that some people supplement their pressing goals with some direct triceps work). Sometimes, just sometimes, one can have his cake and eat it, too.
If you ever decide to reintegrate direct biceps work back in, here are some tips:
Your elbow issues sounds like a case of medial epicondylitis, or golfer’s elbow. Your forearm extensors are most likely imbalanced in relation to the flexors. You also most likely also need to work on trigger points where the flexors attach.
Although heavy cheat curls have their time and place, for people like you, it’s most likely better to learn to work the muscles and not just manipulate the weight from point A to B. Also ascertain just how much valgus/varus you have in your elbows and this will determine the curling variations that work best for you.
And learn how subtle changes in angle, supination/pronation, etc. can shift most of the load onto the targeted muscles. I saw the db thread you created in this subforum.
One example would be a variation on the concentration curl. Do it standing up with a slight forward lean so the working arm is NOT resting against anything (you can use the non-working arm to brace against something).
Start from a neutral grip position and as you curl up (point the upper arm straight down to eliminate front delt from kicking in), begin to supinate. Exactly when you begin the supination is something you have to experiment with.
And where the db ends up is something you’ll have to experiment with as well. Aim for your opposite shoulder and make subtle changes to see what works best.
And on the eccentric, as you lower the db, return to a neutral grip position smoothly and gradually. This neutral grip position will protect your elbow when the bicep is in the weakest position (elbows extended).
You can even try gripping the db closer to the thumb side as this will make the supination more challenging (and thereby allow you to get more with less weight) and, should you change midset to a pin-wheel curl, you’ll already be in a more advantageous grip.
This is just one example of how to learn the subtleties of a movement and not be that pin head that just vomits tired cliches.
I tell people that you can be the weight room equivalent of the guy who plays chopsticks on the piano all their lives or they can aspire to master Rachmaninoff. The choice is theirs.
If you actually do the corrective work (see #1), lighten the weight, focus on working the muscle, and program correctly, and are not afraid to experiment you just might be surprised at the result.
And ignore the trolls who only excel at quoting abstracts and studies they scraped off the 'net (I believe you recently got a glimpse of a perfect example in another subforum).
The above, I can assure you, is information with a foundation based on science and topped off with empirical knowledge earned in the weight room.
i tried this alternating arms thing.
my chest is screaming for the first time in my life.
[quote]56x11 wrote:
[quote]Grove wrote:
[quote]56x11 wrote:
[quote]Grove wrote:
[quote]davyboy wrote:
hate hate arms
do a few dips after chest shoulder day and a few curls after back…but do i hate em
[/quote]
Work some CGBP and some chins in and you’ll never have to do another dip or curl…
Chins blow my arms up way more than curls ever did. But I could never give up dips.[/quote]
If you can get optimal biceps development from just chins (and variations), you’re a lucky man.
You’re also in the minority.
Most people, eventually, will need to incorporate some form of curls into their routine for best results.
I’ve performed pretty much every variation on the pull ups and chin ups imaginable. In the Your ‘Big 3’ thread in this subforum, I even mentioned a movement that most would find…unique (although the principle behind it is nothing new). But my biceps really didn’t start to attain that ‘wow’ factor until I began to intelligently incorporate some curling. And this is true with a great majority of folks I work with.
And before anyone gives that tired cliche of gymnasts they see on tv…well, if they’re good enough be on a televised event, they’re also national level or world class; so it’s not a stretch to say they’ve been dealt a pretty decent genetic hand which would respond to just pull ups and chin ups.
[/quote]
Yea, I kind of agree with you. Davyboy said he hated hated training arms, and I was just suggesting a less isolating movement that has worked well for me. I probably shouldn’t have said ‘never’ though. I can’t really do curls anymore. They cause too much pain after a while on inside of my elbow.
And since I started doing chin variations, my arms have never looked fuller, even more so than when I was knocking out tons of curls. Maybe not “optimal” development as you put it, but that’s not really what i’m going for. I find that as I strengthen the whole body through the main lifts, and chins, rows, dips, my arms naturally follow. [/quote]
Disclaimer and advanced apology to the OP as this is unrelated to his topic.
Grove, I know exactly where you’re coming from. For the longest time I just focused on weighted pull ups and one arms as real-world strength was a priority for me. Eventually, as my goals shifted towards a balance of looking the best I can as well as being as strong as I can, I got that itch.
What added to the frustration was that my Dad, who really didn’t lift much weights, had that full and peaked shape. And all he did was the basic PT as an Army MP(!)
So I went through a phase in which I made it a priority to see just how much I can master the movements AND actually have the development to show for it. Now, I’m at the stage of making up for lost time (although bicep training is no longer a priority).
I view direct bicep work as helping my pulling movements (in the same manner that some people supplement their pressing goals with some direct triceps work). Sometimes, just sometimes, one can have his cake and eat it, too.
If you ever decide to reintegrate direct biceps work back in, here are some tips:
Your elbow issues sounds like a case of medial epicondylitis, or golfer’s elbow. Your forearm extensors are most likely imbalanced in relation to the flexors. You also most likely also need to work on trigger points where the flexors attach.
Although heavy cheat curls have their time and place, for people like you, it’s most likely better to learn to work the muscles and not just manipulate the weight from point A to B. Also ascertain just how much valgus/varus you have in your elbows and this will determine the curling variations that work best for you.
And learn how subtle changes in angle, supination/pronation, etc. can shift most of the load onto the targeted muscles. I saw the db thread you created in this subforum.
One example would be a variation on the concentration curl. Do it standing up with a slight forward lean so the working arm is NOT resting against anything (you can use the non-working arm to brace against something).
Start from a neutral grip position and as you curl up (point the upper arm straight down to eliminate front delt from kicking in), begin to supinate. Exactly when you begin the supination is something you have to experiment with.
And where the db ends up is something you’ll have to experiment with as well. Aim for your opposite shoulder and make subtle changes to see what works best.
And on the eccentric, as you lower the db, return to a neutral grip position smoothly and gradually. This neutral grip position will protect your elbow when the bicep is in the weakest position (elbows extended).
You can even try gripping the db closer to the thumb side as this will make the supination more challenging (and thereby allow you to get more with less weight) and, should you change midset to a pin-wheel curl, you’ll already be in a more advantageous grip.
This is just one example of how to learn the subtleties of a movement and not be that pin head that just vomits tired cliches.
I tell people that you can be the weight room equivalent of the guy who plays chopsticks on the piano all their lives or they can aspire to master Rachmaninoff. The choice is theirs.
If you actually do the corrective work (see #1), lighten the weight, focus on working the muscle, and program correctly, and are not afraid to experiment you just might be surprised at the result.
And ignore the trolls who only excel at quoting abstracts and studies they scraped off the 'net (I believe you recently got a glimpse of a perfect example in another subforum).
The above, I can assure you, is information with a foundation based on science and topped off with empirical knowledge earned in the weight room.
[/quote]
OK = lets stop hijacking the OP’s thread and take this to the injury / rehab. I feel like I just got taken to the principal’s office, but I am interested in discussing a few things you wrote.
what about flex lewis style dumbbell floor presses?
Nothing crushes my pecs better than the decline BB bench. zomg. Shout outs to Yates’s B+G vids for giving the idea to ditch the flat bench.