Hughes Vs Royce Gracie

Training Powerlifting
21

Hi guys,

ZEB, sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with you on several points you stated.

The very first statement you made is incorrect. Ken Shamrock did understand ground fighting/grappling back in the first UFC. In fact, he submitted the very first opponent he ever faced in the UFC with a straight ankle lock.

He did not however understand grappling where a Gi was involved. Anyone who has ever competed in grappling tournaments knows that grappling with a Gi is a completely different animal from grappling without a Gi. Gracie exploited Shamrock’s lack of knowledge in this area and used it to submit him.

Secondly, while Hughes may have a basic understanding of submissions, he is a far cry from understanding submissions on Royce’s level. I have as good of an understanding of submissions as Hughes, but I am not suffering from delusions of granduer that would tell me I could avoid being submitted by Royce. There is a big difference between spending a couple years on submissions and doing them your whole life.

Minotaur, I honestly doubt that Hughes will KO Royce on his feet. I agree that Royce’s stand up is by no means world class, but neither is Hughes’s. Also, as I stated earlier, I don’t believe that Hughes has ever knocked someone out on his feet. Never.

So, unless he humbled himself and trained with a superb striking coach for this fight (which I don’t see him doing), I don’t see Royce as being his first KO victim. Also, realize that Royce has a considerable reach advantage, which will only make it harder for Hughes to win on their feet.

Good training,

Sentoguy

22

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi guys,

ZEB, sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with you on several points you stated.

The very first statement you made is incorrect. Ken Shamrock did understand ground fighting/grappling back in the first UFC. In fact, he submitted the very first opponent he ever faced in the UFC with a straight ankle lock.

He did not however understand grappling where a Gi was involved. Anyone who has ever competed in grappling tournaments knows that grappling with a Gi is a completely different animal from grappling without a Gi. Gracie exploited Shamrock’s lack of knowledge in this area and used it to submit him.

Secondly, while Hughes may have a basic understanding of submissions, he is a far cry from understanding submissions on Royce’s level. I have as good of an understanding of submissions as Hughes, but I am not suffering from delusions of granduer that would tell me I could avoid being submitted by Royce. There is a big difference between spending a couple years on submissions and doing them your whole life.

Minotaur, I honestly doubt that Hughes will KO Royce on his feet. I agree that Royce’s stand up is by no means world class, but neither is Hughes’s. Also, as I stated earlier, I don’t believe that Hughes has ever knocked someone out on his feet. Never.

So, unless he humbled himself and trained with a superb striking coach for this fight (which I don’t see him doing), I don’t see Royce as being his first KO victim. Also, realize that Royce has a considerable reach advantage, which will only make it harder for Hughes to win on their feet.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

So where’s the fruits of this knowledge? If Hughe’s striking isn’t that hot, and you know as much about submissions as he does, why aren’t you competing? Do you just completely suck at grappling?

And don’t tell me about academic knowledge. If you don’t know how to apply it on the mat, it doesn’t mean shit. Before you go comparing yourself to one of the best middleweights in the world, let’s see you actually do something.

23

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi guys,

ZEB, sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with you on several points you stated.[/quote]

Sorry? That’s what makes this stuff fun :slight_smile:

He was good at leg locks no question. But they interviewed him right after his loss to Gracie and he said this: “I never saw this stuff before, it’s all new to me.”

Of course he was talking about the more “advanced submissions” of Jiu-Jitsu, compared to what he practiced.

I did try to point that out. However, if you have a good enough understanding you can at least stay away from certain things. I mean there’s one arm lock (granted you can get if from many positions) and Hughes knows enough not to extend his arm like some inexperienced wrestler might.

He knows there are several ways for Royce to get his back and he will be astute enough to avoid that as well…etc…

I know he’s not going to submit Royce that will never happen for many reasons. How many of you realize that Royce just won’t tap? Not that Matt could get Royce in any sort of submission anyway.

[quote]So, unless he humbled himself and trained with a superb striking coach for this fight (which I don’t see him doing), I don’t see Royce as being his first KO victim. Also, realize that Royce has a considerable reach advantage, which will only make it harder for Hughes to win on their feet.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I agree that Matt will never knock Royce out on his feet. And he most likely won’t knock him out on the ground either. BUT oh my the ground and pound that Royce is going to take is going to be awful!

24

In the end it doesn’t matter with GSP and Diego up and coming. A new champ will be crowned eventually anyway. Or maybe the rightful owner, BJ, will take it back.

25

Hi guys,

Cap’n, yes, I know how to apply it on the mat. But, I simply never felt the need to compete. I’m more concerned with the self defense/RBSD applications or grappling/groundfighting, than I am with winning trophies. Besides, I know what I can do, and I don’t need to prove anything to you to be confident that I know what I’m talking about.

As far as comparing myself with Hughes, only in the area of submission knowledge. I was not comparing myself to Hughes when it comes to strength, or experience, or MMA record. Hughes is an outstanding wrestler and deserves all the credit in the world for his skill in that area. But, as far as submissions go, he is no expert by any means. Royce on the other hand is.

ZEB, okay, perhaps you are correct about Shamrock having never seen some of the more advanced Jiu-Jitsu stuff. But, my objection was to your suggestion that “no one, I mean NO One, understood ground fighting”. Obviously, while Shamrock may not have been as versed as Gracie in ground fighting, he did know something about it.

Also, what do you mean 1 arm lock? There are numerous arm locks. In my definition of an arm I would include the elbow joint, wrist, fingers (although I realize the UFC doesn’t allow locking small digits), and the shoulder (although I suppose you could argue that) as joints that can be locked.

And it’s not as simple as just not extending your arm. Sure, a beginner might rely on “Donated” submissions to defeat their opponent. But, someone of Royce’s caliber is going to understand how to trick his opponent into giving him submissions. At the advance levels grappling is a lot like a game of Chess. The winner is the one who can better execute their plan and trick and trap their opponent into making mistakes.

Finally, I am not arguing that a very likely outcome will be that Hughes will win a decision. But, keep in mind that the opponents that Hughes has had the most trouble with are those who are very good submission artists. He lost both of his matches against Ken “Superman” Hallman who submitted him in no time flat, both times. He lost to BJ Penn, who also submitted him early in the first round. And, he should have lost to Verissimo, but got an early Christmas present in the form of a ridiculous decision win.

Good training,

Sentoguy

26

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

ZEB, okay, perhaps you are correct about Shamrock having never seen some of the more advanced Jiu-Jitsu stuff. But, my objection was to your suggestion that “no one, I mean NO One, understood ground fighting”. Obviously, while Shamrock may not have been as versed as Gracie in ground fighting, he did know something about it.[/quote]

I don’t think you can compare the likes of Shamrock back in the mid 90’s with Hughes in terms of ground knowledge.

Did Shamrock know a little something about submissions? In a very limited way (leg/ankle locks) yes. But let’s face it Hughes is very sohpisticated compared to Shamrock back then.

That’s my point.

How many small digit locks do people tap to in the UFC? I’ve never seen one. I think that irrelavant. Most of the arm locks are the regular armbars (to the side) and of course key locks various kimuras (sp).

Hughes won’t be that stupid. No one should count on him falling into anything like that. Royce will have to earn it and I don’t think he’s able.

This is where Royce has a shot at it. I think he has good strategy…But limited ability to carry it out. So…if there is a Hughes mistake…

[quote]Finally, I am not arguing that a very likely outcome will be that Hughes will win a decision. But, keep in mind that the opponents that Hughes has had the most trouble with are those who are very good submission artists. He lost both of his matches against Ken “Superman” Hallman who submitted him in no time flat, both times. He lost to BJ Penn, who also submitted him early in the first round. And, he should have lost to Verissimo, but got an early Christmas present in the form of a ridiculous decision win.

Good training,

Sentoguy
[/quote]

I agree, he has been susceptable in the past to others of a similar background.

27

Hi ZEB,

Okay, I’ll give you that Hughes has more knowledge of submissions than Shamrock did during the 1st UFC. I guess I just misunderstood what you meant by your comment.

The reason why you don’t see people tapping out to small digit locks in the UFC is that it is illegal to do them. They work quite well in the hands of someone who knows how to use them (in the right situations of course). There are tons of rules in the UFC, many of them involve certain types of submissions that have been deemed unsafe.

One type of submission you rarely see is wrist locks (although to the best of my knowledge they are legal). Why? I really don’t know. Maybe not very many people train them. I remember hearing that the Gracies don’t train them. But, that may or may not be true.

Good training,

Sentoguy

28

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi ZEB,

Okay, I’ll give you that Hughes has more knowledge of submissions than Shamrock did during the 1st UFC. I guess I just misunderstood what you meant by your comment.

The reason why you don’t see people tapping out to small digit locks in the UFC is that it is illegal to do them. They work quite well in the hands of someone who knows how to use them (in the right situations of course). There are tons of rules in the UFC, many of them involve certain types of submissions that have been deemed unsafe.

One type of submission you rarely see is wrist locks (although to the best of my knowledge they are legal). Why? I really don’t know. Maybe not very many people train them. I remember hearing that the Gracies don’t train them. But, that may or may not be true.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I noticed that as well (no wrist locks). I used them all the time when I trained in submission. They worked well for me. But then again who am I to second guess guys at that level? :slight_smile:

29

I train with a certified Gracie instructor from the academy and I asked him about the wristlocks. He says that they are a part of GJJ, in fact Helio uses them a lot. It has just so happened that Royce hasn’t used one in competition.

30

I believe wrist locks count as “small joint manipulation” which are not allowed in UFC competition. I was always under that assumption, but “small joint” really doesn’t address whether a wrist falls under small joint or not.

It may also be that since wrists are so tightly wrapped, along with the glove, it may hinder the manipulation of the wrist against a pivot, but I am not sure, never practiced wrist manipulations with a wrapped partner.

Fouls: [Top]

  1. Butting with the head.
  2. Eye gouging of any kind.
  3. Biting.
  4. Hair pulling.
  5. Fish hooking.
  6. Groin attacks of any kind.
  7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
  8. Small joint manipulation.
  9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
  10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
  11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
  12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
  13. Grabbing the clavicle.
  14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
  15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
  16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
  17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
  18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
  19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
  20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
  21. Spitting at an opponent.
  22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
  23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
  24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
  25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
  26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
  27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
  28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
  29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
  30. Interference by the corner.
  31. Throwing in the towel during competition.
31

[quote]JohnnyNinja wrote:
I believe wrist locks count as “small joint manipulation” which are not allowed in UFC competition. I was always under that assumption, but “small joint” really doesn’t address whether a wrist falls under small joint or not.

It may also be that since wrists are so tightly wrapped, along with the glove, it may hinder the manipulation of the wrist against a pivot, but I am not sure, never practiced wrist manipulations with a wrapped partner.

Fouls: [Top]
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
[/quote]

Doesn’t this make UFC and Pride all illegal?
I think Hughes might lose to Gracie. Remeber when Gracie was the UFC champion?
He would have to battle 3 opponents the same night to win. There were no weight class. The last fight Gracie had that I can recall was against the 500 lb.sumo Akibono last year. Ring rust or not
Hughes will have an extremely difficult time with Gracie.Hughes is a great fighter and champion but Gracie is far too experienced. Just my opinion

32 
   Some clarifications.......first Royce Gracies UFC record is 13 wins 1 loss and  2 draws (13-1-2). I believe, but I am not certain that his one loss was his corner throwing in the towel after a fight because he could not continue on to the next round of the tournament (and I think he had already submitted the opponent in the match who was credited with the win Harold Howard). Next, Gracie fought Shamrock twice to my knowledge, once he submitted him in 57 seconds, the second time they fought to a 36 minute consecutive draw. Though Hughes beat Shamrock a few years ago many forget Shamrock had an ankle lock in place and was very close to submitting Hughes, and Shamrock was 41 at the time. Finally Royce has beaten every type of fighter on the planet, some hundreds of lbs more then him and most of the fighters 50lbs or so more then him. Royce also fought multiple fights nightly winning 3 of the first 4 UFC tournaments.

My point is not that Royce will win (thought i hope he does) but rather that Royce Gracie will give himself a chance to win every fight he enters.

33

When’s the fight again?

Sorry, I’m too lazy to look through the whole thing, but I did quickly skim the first page again.

Plus it’ll be good to remind everyone.

34

Ugh. You guys suck. My lazy ass had to look up the date myself.

All I could find was that it’s in May.

Maybe they don’t have an exact date set yet?

35

huges never fought shamrock