HRT Guys - THANK YOU

Pharma TRT
161

Thanks Happydog48!
So that is the “normal” range for people 40 to 54 years old. I wonder what is considered low according to anti-aging medicine? I do understand that other test values have to be considered.
Do you happen to know the normal reference range for someone 25 to 35 (or a link to where I can look that up)?
Anti-aging medicine is very interesting to me. I have always been interested in prevention rather than fix-it-ups.

***I actually got those test results the other day. My doctor said that my HGH is very good, but I am wondering if it is coming from an anti-aging standpoint.

162

Heart and soul317 -

You need 100mg test cyp per week, better if you inject that twice per week.

You need to get tested for E2/estradiol. That is your 1st battle with your doc.

You need T+hCG+AI

TRT - injected or high % compounded cream for those who absorb

250iu hCG injected SC EOD to maintain your testicles

AI, aromatase inhibitor. Typically Arimidex/anastrozole 1mg/wk in divided doses.

With injections, if you can get a script for .5ml 5% compounded T cream and apply that to your scrotum and penis, that can improve libido and sensitivity. That will not have much effect on your overall T levels.

You, as most guys, will have to find a new doctor. Rarely, a doc is willing to consider and work with info that is fed to them, but most have an ego problem that blocks any of that.

Do a location search here:

Note ‘location options’

Read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Syndrome-Critical-Sexuality-Reversing-Menopause/dp/0871318296

The above book is still cutting edge today. The only weakness is the advice given re injections. You can get better advice about that here. Note drug interactions on page 211.

Injections: You do not need to inject into your glutes with 1.5" #22/23 needles. If your legs are lean, you can inject into the vastus lateralis with 1" #25. I and others inject EOD with .5" .5ml #29 insulin syringes. Canadian research showed that SC T injections work well, better than IM. A few doctor are following this lead. Most docs will believe otherwise. There are options and you should be able to do what you are comfortable with.

163

Hi!
Thanks for the reply KSman. I am a woman though! (:

The 270 that I was talking about was an IGF-1 reading. I was just curious about optimal levels from an anti-aging standpoint.

Thank you, though!

164

[quote]heartandsoul317 wrote:
Thanks Happydog48!
So that is the “normal” range for people 40 to 54 years old. I wonder what is considered low according to anti-aging medicine? I do understand that other test values have to be considered.
Do you happen to know the normal reference range for someone 25 to 35 (or a link to where I can look that up)?
Anti-aging medicine is very interesting to me. I have always been interested in prevention rather than fix-it-ups.

***I actually got those test results the other day. My doctor said that my HGH is very good, but I am wondering if it is coming from an anti-aging standpoint.
[/quote]

Glad to help.

Like I said, which test method is used will influence results. All lab results will include the reference ranges for your gender and age, so you absolutely need a copy of your blood work to have and keep for future reference. Any doctor that balks at giving you a copy should be avoided.

Anyone interested an anti-aging needs to be reading Life Extension Magazine from LEF. The magazine is a promotional vehicle for their supplements, but the articles are well researched and extensively referenced.

You can get a free one year subscription here:

165

Thanks Happydog48!
My one year free subscription is on it’s way! (:

166

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
@heartandsoul317:

IGF-1 is normally tested as an indicator of pituitary function.

First off, I would look at the reference range from the particular lab results as test methods will influence values.

According to data from Smith Kline:

40 to 54 yrs. 90 - 360

If the reference range on your test is similar, then a value of 270 puts you at 60% of maximum which would indicate a healthy pituitary.

In the case of the pituitary, overproduction can be just as problematic as underproduction, so it isn’t a simple matter to say what level represents the optimum value. This is one reason why one rarely finds doctors ordering tests for a single hormone.

It is the total hormone picture that gives the best idea of what is going and individual values are usually not very informative by themselves.[/quote]

Not so fast.

It is important that we do NOT look at AGE ADJUSTED ranges for IGF-1(or heck, any hormone for that matter)

You want to look for the range of a healthy 25 year old. For IGF-1, this is usually 128 - 386, at least it was at quest. Ideally, one wants to be in the upper third of the range, so that would be about over 300.

167

[quote]KSman wrote:

With injections, if you can get a script for .5ml 5% compounded T cream and apply that to your scrotum and penis, that can improve libido and sensitivity. That will not have much effect on your overall T levels.

[/quote]

Not true. Many men have fantastic results from a good T gel. And T gels are alot more DHT friendly. High DHT is great for boosting libido and well being. We now know DHT has little or no effect on the prostate gland when E2 is kept in check.

What one needs to find is a solid, reputable compounding pharmacy.

I would also like to note that there are ZERO long term studies done on injecting T SQ. I wonder how the oil would affect fat when suspended in it. We simply don’t know what the long term ramifications are.

I would try T gel first. It works for many. If it does not work for you, you will know when BW is done. Then switch to shots.

168

[quote]Wise Guy wrote:
KSman wrote:

With injections, if you can get a script for .5ml 5% compounded T cream and apply that to your scrotum and penis, that can improve libido and sensitivity. That will not have much effect on your overall T levels.

Not true. Many men have fantastic results from a good T gel. And T gels are alot more DHT friendly. High DHT is great for boosting libido and well being. We now know DHT has little or no effect on the prostate gland when E2 is kept in check.

What one needs to find is a solid, reputable compounding pharmacy.

I would also like to note that there are ZERO long term studies done on injecting T SQ. I wonder how the oil would affect fat when suspended in it. We simply don’t know what the long term ramifications are.

I would try T gel first. It works for many. If it does not work for you, you will know when BW is done. Then switch to shots.

[/quote]

What I was saying is that for guys who are injecting, they can use a small amount of supplemental T cream on their scrotum or scrotum and penis and that that will not have much effect on overall levels. I was not refering to transderals in general.

169

[quote]KSman wrote:
Wise Guy wrote:
KSman wrote:

With injections, if you can get a script for .5ml 5% compounded T cream and apply that to your scrotum and penis, that can improve libido and sensitivity. That will not have much effect on your overall T levels.

Not true. Many men have fantastic results from a good T gel. And T gels are alot more DHT friendly. High DHT is great for boosting libido and well being. We now know DHT has little or no effect on the prostate gland when E2 is kept in check.

What one needs to find is a solid, reputable compounding pharmacy.

I would also like to note that there are ZERO long term studies done on injecting T SQ. I wonder how the oil would affect fat when suspended in it. We simply don’t know what the long term ramifications are.

I would try T gel first. It works for many. If it does not work for you, you will know when BW is done. Then switch to shots.

What I was saying is that for guys who are injecting, they can use a small amount of supplemental T cream on their scrotum or scrotum and penis and that that will not have much effect on overall levels. I was not refering to transderals in general.[/quote]

Oh, I got you.

Hell, thats a fantastic idea. How are the results on it? I would imagine good, given there are plenty of T receptors in that area.

I’m not dismissing the idea of T SQ. In theory, its a better method than IM, for many reasons. No holes poked in muscle tissue(even if they are small ones from insulin pins). I just wonder about long term ramifications, if it might be potentially cancerous.

170

[quote]Wise Guy wrote:
happydog48 wrote:
@heartandsoul317:

Not so fast.

It is important that we do NOT look at AGE ADJUSTED ranges for IGF-1(or heck, any hormone for that matter)

You want to look for the range of a healthy 25 year old. For IGF-1, this is usually 128 - 386, at least it was at quest. Ideally, one wants to be in the upper third of the range, so that would be about over 300. [/quote]

Thank you, Wise Guy. That is what I was thinking. I agree with the 300 to 350 range being a target for IGF-1. Hopefully, mainstream medicine will catch on sooner than later to anti-aging medicine.

171

Is this thread still active?

I have some questions concerning PV.

172

[quote]Brody wrote:
Is this thread still active?

I have some questions concerning PV.[/quote]

Can you be less specific?

173

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
e-loo wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Hmmm, to me, the idea of putting someone onto TRT, just because they measure low on a test, but have NO SYMPTOMS, is just as bad as refusing to put a low-t sufferer (ie all the symptoms) onto TRT, because they still measure 'low normal. Fucking doctors.

In my case, I had some symptoms but didn’t understand them - I thought it was work burnout/complications from diabetes. Or that I was just getting older.

And even though I was low, I was able to work out, put on a little muscle, and even have crappy erections. I was low for so long that I thought it was “normal” to feel this way, which is what I suspect might be going on with Raw Power.

It would have been great if a doctor had intervened.

Yeah but in this guys’ case, he says he doesn’t want TRT, and he doesn’t need TRT (at least from a symproms/quality of life point of view), yet because his numbers are low, his doctor decrees that he must go on TRT. What arrogance.

This is just as bad as deciding that some poor fucker can’t have TRT just beacuse they have low normal numbers, despite the fact that their whole outlook on life could be improved with administration of test. Some doctors don’t seem to see that they are there for the health of the patient, not to push their own agenda… Sorry, I’m ranting, lol.[/quote]

There are serious implications of low test… Diabetes, heart disease… Correlation with earlier death is very high…

174

[quote]e-loo wrote:
OK, so I’ve finished week 4.

So guys, when the hell do I start feeling better? LOL

[/quote]

Yes! A x2 to thanking the HRT people!

I felt better in 3 days on 4 pumps… Great for 3 weeks, then anxiety and weird funereal feelings… tested E2 was 30… cut to 2 pumps, went back in toilet, same as when I started…

I’m using the references here to deliver to Doc who will do whatever the data supports. So far all reading supports the assertions in:

Especially the research.

I’m dumbfounded why practice deviates so far from what studies reveal.\

Thank you guys, as the research shows your discussions are extending peoples lives and improving QOL!

175

Not around T-Nation much anymore. Digging through this thread for some info today. I really should update it.

Back on 07-07-2007, I mention that I had found a new doctor, a urologist. Switching from my old fashioned endo to this guy was one of the best things I have ever done.

First - he treated me, not the lab report. Of course the numbers are a guideline, but what is more important is how I am feeling.

I told him in the first couple visits that I believed I was a “high-normal” back when my testicles worked. Rather than rejecting it outright, he said yes, that is entirely possible. We slowly increased the dosage until my symptoms went away. We ended up at 1mL/200mg Test enan a week.

I divide it up and inject on Mondays and Thursdays. My total test runs in the 800s these days. Free test is slightly above normal range.

By December '07, I was much more like my old self. Clearer headed, more focused, more aware, more interested in life. A few more months and friends began to say to me “We have you back!” Right now physically I am down about 20lbs scale weight from what I weighed in Dec 07, but that does not reflect the fat I’ve taken off and the muscle I’ve gained. Then people would describe me as fat, now they describe me as muscular. Seriously I believe that transformation came mostly because I got my mental focus and tenacity back, things that the low test had robbed me of.

NOW THE BAD NEWS; The reason I logged on today was to dig thru this thread to figure out how long it took for me to start feeling good after starting injections.

Why?

Because I totally screwed up in April & May.

I was hitting lots of nerves with the 1" needles, so I asked the pharmacist if I could go to something shorter. She said sure, you are lean, 5/8" will be fine. Dunno why I did not clear this with my doctor.

By the end of May I was suffering from full blown low test symptoms. Fatigue, mental fog, unable to do anything because it all seemed too overwhelming to get from thinking about it to actually going through all the steps you have to go through. Cranky. I really just wanted to lie in bed all day. And I did stay in bed as much as I could. Just staring out the window

A TRT guy on another board helped me figure out what was going on. Talked to my doc’s nurse and she said go back to the 1" needles.

Been a couple weeks now, I am starting to come back. I had forgotten how absolutely shitty low test makes you feel, and how much testosterone makes us the people who we are.

176

Very interesting story and a confusing event. Seems to suggest that you need deep IM delivery. We know that you are different and more like a small number of guys who need 300mg test ester per week to get high normal levels. And we do not know what is metabolizing all of that T. It might be that this unknown process is somehow related to deep VS shallow IM absorption. That would suggest that SC injections would not work for you.

An interesting case report, but an isolated data point. I will keep this in mind for the testosterone hyper metabolizer guys.

177

Yes, I don’t think we can generalize anything about needle size from me. Another guy I talked to does great with 5/8" in the quads.

Apparently one gets better absorption from injections in the glutes. I’m trying to figure out a way to self-inject there. I bet there is a thread on that somewhere on T-Nation. I will need some 1.5" for that.

As to needing 200mg of test to get to levels in the hign normal range, I guess it is what it is. I just feel fortunate my doc stuck with me and got me there.

178

Let me know where your levels end up. Glutes require that you be a contortionist. Make sure that you do it right and don’t stab your sciatic nerve. That could be horrible at best and crippling at worse.

179

Injecting in the glute isn’t that hard. I’m a good size dude and just stand in front of the mirror, position the needle with my own technique and press it in. Not that I enjoy the poke, but I dealt with it for a year plus. I tried the quad, but it was to much pain the day(s) after. I used a 23 gauge 1 inch needle the 1.5 inch was just to much and it was pain full, although I have a fat gut, my ass is rock hard and it just couldn’t take the longer needle with out pain.

I just started Andro-gel so we’ll see how it goes, if I don’t see the results I want I’ll go back to cyp.

180

KSman - My nurse showed me where to inject to avoid the sciatic nerve. Upper outer quadrant is what she said.

The mirror idea is good, my main concern I think was being able to see when I aspirate.

Braunbeck, I’m using a 25 gauge needle to inject and that is not too bad. I draw the test up with an 18 gauge - pretty fast and bubble free.

Good luck with the androgel, it does work for some guys.