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Pharma TRT
141

There are plenty of studies that show flaxseed reduces testosterone. Here’s another:

http://www.psa-rising.com/medicalpike/nutri/flaxseed071201.shtml

“The men were on the low-fat, flaxseed-supplemented diet for an average of 34 days…At the end of the study, the researchers observed that the men on the diet had significant decreases in cholesterol, and both total and free testosterone.”

There are plenty of foods that have questions associated with them (like soy) and my feeling is why take a chance? Like I said, since all the benefits of flax can be found in foods that don’t have questions, why take the chance?

142

[quote]KSman wrote:
You believe all of that?

“Ligands have been shown to increase SHBG production in test tube studies”

SHBG is produced in the liver. SHBG increases in response to higher E levels. Any other effects like that… one can never say no.

I don’t know how you make SHBG in a test tube, put a fully functional liver in there? Maybe liver cells do not like test tubes.

What is seen in lab work does not always translate to real life dose-response facts.

The LEF ligands are from sesame seed. Sesame seed oil has ligands in it. Too bad for the guys taking testosterone ethanate [made with sesame seed oil.

The ligand-SHBG link does exist. But without knowing the significant of the amounts in diet or supplements, is the effect significant? Many have reported some good results from fish oils, perhaps in the balance, fish oils with ligands are better than nothing. If one were to eliminate all ligands from their diet, would that be an improvement or the opposite.

I did not read all of the context in this thread that led up to this post… my bad.[/quote]

I am well aware that studies are a dime a dozen. I am simply concerned that there is so much info out there indicating a risk. Especially since I have been consuming approx. 3 heaping tablespoons of ground flaxseed per day for quite a while and consuming 4 lef.org omega-3 caps per day containing sesame lignans for even longer. I also have SHBG readings consistently 30 nmol/L over (81.2 for example as of Nov. 29, 2007) the high ref range (10.5 - 50.4) and resulting free-T levels that sit on the low ref range or below.

You make a good point about testosterone ethanate being made with sesame seed oil which flies in the face of these concerns. Also, that there are many beneficial properties to flax seed, sesame lignans, etc. I do detect some concern even on your part however and would hate to think I am unwittingly contributing to my hormonal imbalance. Unlike E2, SHBG is not an easy beast to slay. If there is even a remote chance that simply cutting two items from my nutritional routine will assist in reigning in my SHBG, it is worth a try.

I think I’ll go the trial & error route and eliminate these elements from my diet for several months and see where my blood levels are at. This is a perfect time for change - the new year. My cardiovascular profile is excellent so I can afford to use pysillium husk to replace lost fiber and more omega-3 (a brand without sesame lignans) to replace the missed omega-3. I can use a little drizzle of olive oil to replace the dietary fat that the flax was providing.

I appreciate your scientific perspective.

143

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
There are plenty of studies that show flaxseed reduces testosterone. Here’s another:

http://www.psa-rising.com/medicalpike/nutri/flaxseed071201.shtml

“The men were on the low-fat, flaxseed-supplemented diet for an average of 34 days…At the end of the study, the researchers observed that the men on the diet had significant decreases in cholesterol, and both total and free testosterone.”

There are plenty of foods that have questions associated with them (like soy) and my feeling is why take a chance? Like I said, since all the benefits of flax can be found in foods that don’t have questions, why take the chance?[/quote]

That particular study is weak since the diet is low fat (known not to promote optimal T levels) and even states itself that it cannot attribute the lower T levels to the flax or the low fat. Other studies (see links in above posts and search for yourself) do raise alarm bells however even while they are not conclusive.

Your assertion “There are plenty of foods that have questions associated with them (like soy) and my feeling is why take a chance? Like I said, since all the benefits of flax can be found in foods that don’t have questions, why take the chance?” is indeed prudent IMHO. At a minimum, several months of eliminating these elements with ensuing blood lab followup is warranted.

144

Well, he certainly started out scrawny.

And is certainly is brawny now. DAMN brawny.

I was worried that you were not getting sufficient protein. I see that you do eat meat. That is good.

I am surprised that some of your meals do include protein.

As to calories, I think ontothenext has a good point – “eating enough” is relative.

Out of curiosity, let me have your stats – There is a calorie needs calculator at Dr. Berardi’s Precision Nutrition Members site. I would like to enter your numbers in and see what we get.

Body Weight
Body Fat % (just guess if you don’t know)

Non-exercise activity level (Choose one - Bed Rest, Office Work, Some Physical Activity, Labor Work)

Exercise Type Session One (ex Free weight training)
Exercise Duration

Exercise Type Session Two (ex Walking high intensity)
Exercise Duration

–

145

happydog48 is right (as he usually is).

My advice is to drop the flax and up your fish oil. I use a liquid purified fish oil product and take about 20 to 30g a day.

146

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Black Cat wrote:Your suggestion of Dr. Berardi’s book certainly cannot hurt and it is always a good practice to amass strategies from highly successful people.

Well, he certainly started out scrawny.

And is certainly is brawny now. DAMN brawny.

[/quote]

Yes, but was he free-T challenged?

All of my meals include protein. I estimate my low-carb day (6 days / week) macros at 55-60% fat, 40-45% Protein, 5% Carbs

160 lbs

12-14% considering covered lower abs but very lean elsewhere

Office work - fairly sedentary, no sports

Weight training (3 times per week for 1 hour)

1 hour

15 mins cardio (skipping), stretch, core training (2 - 3 times per week. Duration on these days is 45 minutes total)

45 mins total

Thanks for your focus on my issues!!

147

[quote]e-loo wrote:
happydog48 wrote:There are plenty of foods that have questions associated with them (like soy) and my feeling is why take a chance? Like I said, since all the benefits of flax can be found in foods that don’t have questions, why take the chance?

happydog48 is right (as he usually is).

My advice is to drop the flax and up your fish oil. I use a liquid purified fish oil product and take about 20 to 30g a day.

[/quote]

Yes. That is my plan. I am currently using gel caps but was already planning to pick up concentrated liquid when I run out. How do your nutritional macros break down?

148

[quote]Black Cat wrote:

160 lbs
12-14% considering covered lower abs but very lean elsewhere
Office work - fairly sedentary, no sports
Weight training (3 times per week for 1 hour)
15 mins cardio (skipping), stretch, core training (2 - 3 times per week. Duration on these days is 45 minutes total)

Thanks for your focus on my issues!![/quote]

Progressive Muscle Gain: 3839 calories a day
Advanced Muscle Gain: 4415 calories a day

I believe Dr. Berardi says somewhere that you may have to adjust these up or down by as much as 15 to 20%, depending on whether your metabolism is slower or faster.

149

[quote]e-loo wrote:

Progressive Muscle Gain: 3839 calories a day
Advanced Muscle Gain: 4415 calories a day

I believe Dr. Berardi says somewhere that you may have to adjust these up or down by as much as 15 to 20%, depending on whether your metabolism is slower or faster.

[/quote]

Thanks. That’s about what I average now.

I found an interesting physique clinic for ectomorphs by Chris Thibaudeau. It details a training program and nutritional plan custom made for ecto’s like me. It also clearly denotes the idiosyncrasies of being an ectomorph and the stratgies that are required to rise above the unique set of challenges that ecto’s face.

Check it out: http://www.T-Nation.com/readPhysClin.do?id=1859240&pageNo=4

150

Coach Thibadeau’s work is PHENOMINAL. I will check out that link. As an endomorph, I find the world of ecto’s very mysterious, so this will be an interesting read for me.

Currently I am on the “Get Shredded” diet as I am trying get down to 6-ish% body fat. I have about 13lbs to go to hit 190lbs. I am 5 foot 9 inches tall.

T-Nation “Get Shredded”
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1150209

Berardi labels this an “extreme” diet, and it is – basically a bodybuilder style cutting diet. Only to be used for a limited time.

Obviously this is not the diet for you!

I shoot for about 2100 calories a day
Split is:

Protein 35%
Carbs 10%
Fats 55%

HOWEVER:

I will admit that I cheat on the Protein and take in a little more than is suggested so my daily calories are higher. I am trying to listen to my body more – if it seems to want meat, I give it meat. So far it is going well.

When I reach this goal, I will refocus on trying to put some more muscle mass on while staying as lean as possible. I gained muscle this year @ around 3200 3400 calories a day.

151

[quote]e-loo wrote:

Currently I am on the “Get Shredded” diet as I am trying get down to 6-ish% body fat. I have about 13lbs to go to hit 190lbs. I am 5 foot 9 inches tall.

T-Nation “Get Shredded”
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1150209

Berardi labels this an “extreme” diet, and it is – basically a bodybuilder style cutting diet. Only to be used for a limited time.

Obviously this is not the diet for you!

I shoot for about 2100 calories a day
Split is:

Protein 35%
Carbs 10%
Fats 55%

HOWEVER:

I will admit that I cheat on the Protein and take in a little more than is suggested so my daily calories are higher. I am trying to listen to my body more – if it seems to want meat, I give it meat. So far it is going well.

When I reach this goal, I will refocus on trying to put some more muscle mass on while staying as lean as possible. I gained muscle this year @ around 3200 3400 calories a day.

[/quote]

You are very dedicated. What is your training program?

152

Getting this close to that goal has been a long time coming.

I want to reduce the body fat levels as much as I can so as to reduce aromatization. Well that’s the theory anyway.

Currently a five-day body part split, about an hour of lifting those days. Mostly freeweights.

Plus 30 to 45 mins of cardio six days. On “get shredded” however the cardio is really moderate – walking at a good clip. Sunday’s a day off.

153

Can we get this thread back to TRT concerns?

154

[quote]KSman wrote:
Can we get this thread back to TRT concerns?[/quote]

I think perhaps we are manifesting “brain fog” and “lack of focus” :wink:

155

Below is feedback on the recently discussed topic of whether flax and sesame seeds / lignans are detrimental to optimal free testosterone level from - Disc Hoss - mentor of the “My experience on the anabolic diet” thread. Enjoy…

Hi BC,

Thanks for the PM. Good stuff.

Overall, PUFA’s (polyunsaturated fats) are to be controlled on the AD or any diet. We want the benefits without the drawbacks.

Usually, the natural outworking of the AD is to consume “larger” volumes of animal fats and olive oil. This provides MUFA and SFA (monounsat and saturated fats). These have a positive effect on testosterone counts when they constitute at least 1/3 of the diet. We get more like 1/2 to 2/3 on the AD.

But, I believe I had cautioned the AD’ers not to consume too many PUFA’s. And make Omega’s from fish oil the main component of one’s PUFA intake.

Personally, I average about 10%-15% or so from PUFA and half of that comes from fish oil. A little more from walnuts, seeds and raw almonds. Beyond that its all olive oil and the natural mono’s and sat’s that come from meat, cheese, eggs, cream etc… BTW, almost all salad dressings are primarily PUFA, so be careful. Maybe use some olive oil and vinegar instead.

As you probably know, one only needs 2-5g of the Omega’s to provide full benefit. I’m pretty sure that the suggestions to intelligently limit PUFA’s was pretty early on in the thread. But many don’t or can’t read such a monster thread so that info may have gotten buried.

In short, I agree that you are best served by backing off flax and simply making sure that your omega-3’s are covered

Also, I’ve “heard” that ActivaTe Xtreme is a good product to boost free-t. I’ve orederd two bottles to give it a run and will let you know how that works out. I’ve seen a few experinced lifters claim it works well.

To be sure, free-T is the real engine behind androgen mediated growth. It’s best to do all you can to maximize it. A diet sufficient in nutrients, fat and limited CHO and PUFA’s is the foundation. Intelligent training and perhaps a few supps like Alpha Male, TRIBEX or this new ActivaTe are a nice addition. I like TRIBEX Gold, but have yet to try Alpha Male.

Best,
DH

156

Has anyone tried Maca root? I was told it can boost testosterone.

Family: Brassicaceae
Genus: Lepidium
Specias: Meyenii
Comon names: Maca, Maka
Part used: Tuberous root

157

Well, I read everything in this thread and found it interesting. e-loo, I’d like to know how you’re doing. Here’s my (very brief) story…

52 years old, felt bad for about 8 years, around April discovered T was in 200’s, after 6 months of going from GP to Uro to Endo and 4 tests, the Endo put me on 50mg T injected once a week.

I took my 2nd shot yesterday; still feel the same. I understand it may still be to soon. Based on my reading here it seems 100mg a week is the most logical.

One thing I find to be very very obvious and not discussed much is the initial transitional decline going from natural occurring T to supplemented T. I mean, it stands to reason that you will get something like…

T supplement minus existing levels = what?

In other words, for all practical purposes there is a time period in which we are riding a double wave; our own T plus the new T. How long is that wave and isn’t it reasonable to expect a decline in our mood and levels as our natural T wanes?

And if so shouldn’t our doctors be taking this into account (IE: “OK here’s 50mg per week for the transitional period of (how long?) and after that we boost it to compensate for the lost natural T”).

Maybe I’m over analyzing it.

Here’s the bottom line. My next shot I’m bumping to 100mg and see what happens and if push comes to shove I just have to go toe to toe with my Dr and explain I’m an educated 52 year old who isn’t comfortable being uninformed and in the lack of guidance will venture out on my own.

I do have one phenomena that I totally didn’t expect and I’m kind of scared to mention it for fear of jinxing myself; my ears have stopped ringing!!! I have had tinnitus for about 8 years (note probably about the same time period I started feeling like crap and MAYBE the same time T went down; no way of knowing).

What a pleasant surprise! If you have that constant ringing in your ears then you know what I mean, it’s a severe annoyance. Fingers crossed.

Anyway, my levels
TT is 252 (240-950)
Free T 6.9 (12-30)

Here is a question. Is there a formula that says X amount of TRT will equal Y amount of levels?

:wink:
Joe

158

Hi,
I understand that this thread seems to be mainly for men, but I have a general HRT question that some of you may know the answer to.
What would be an optimal IGF-1 reading? I know that this reading indicates human growth hormone levels. Would an IGF-1 level of 270 be great or just good enough for a 40 year old in your opinion?

Thanks!

159

@heartandsoul317:

IGF-1 is normally tested as an indicator of pituitary function.

First off, I would look at the reference range from the particular lab results as test methods will influence values.

According to data from Smith Kline:

40 to 54 yrs. 90 - 360

If the reference range on your test is similar, then a value of 270 puts you at 60% of maximum which would indicate a healthy pituitary.

In the case of the pituitary, overproduction can be just as problematic as underproduction, so it isn’t a simple matter to say what level represents the optimum value. This is one reason why one rarely finds doctors ordering tests for a single hormone.

It is the total hormone picture that gives the best idea of what is going and individual values are usually not very informative by themselves.

160

In a word, no.

I wish it was that simple because if it was that simple, then the simple minded approach of most doctors (and most patients) would be worth something. In practice it isn’t that simple, so the simple minded approach most often leads to problems.

In my opinion, you’re half right. You absolutely should be uncomfortable being uninformed. But you’re being naive if you think your doctor is automatically going to give you unbiased (or up to date) information.

In a few days of serious study, you could be MORE educated about TRT issues than most doctors. Get serious my brother. This is your life, your health and your well being you’re playing with here and if you don’t get serious and educate yourself, then you deserve whatever you get.

Consider this… let’s just say that you confront your doctor and he gives you some “information”. If you haven’t done the research yourself, how are you going to know if your doctor is giving you the straight dope, or blowing smoke up your ass? Blind trust as a health strategy is ridiculous.

Here’s my personal litmus test. If your doctor isn’t considering or talking to you about estradiol (estrogen) levels as well as testosterone levels, then he or she isn’t well informed about TRT and you better get yourself educated quickly, because he or she isn’t going to be a source of information that is worth a damn.

You’re right in assuming that taking exogenous testosterone is going to shut down your natural production. However, there are no formulas for how, exactly, this is going to affect you.

The “transition” phase you talk about could be hours or days or possibly weeks, I suppose, depending on how your system is functioning.

The keyword here is SYSTEM. Your body is a complex of interconnected systems and it is ignorant to believe that testosterone alone is the be all and end all of this male hormone thing. I say this because the jumping off point for your research needs to be understanding this important fact.

Estradiol (estrogen) is just as important as testosterone to how you feel and function. Plus, the testes do more than just make testosterone which is why the best results for TRT patients are usually achieved with a combination of testosterone, an aromatase inhibitor, and hCG.

There is a lot of information in this forum about these issues as well as other places on the web, so keep reading, keep thinking critically, and you’ll do fine.

Here’s a page I’ve put together with a lot of sources. The more information you have, the better you will be able to sort the gems from the dross.

http://www.happydog.net/hrtlinks.html

Good luck!