HRT Guys - THANK YOU

Interesting. Alot of people would probably opt for you to take a super mega dose all at once, maybe 2 weeks worth, say a 200 - 250mg shot to help last as long as possible(yes, I understand about the half life, but Im assuming bigger dose = longer half life)

One thing to caution about that is the issues of SHBG and estrogen, two things you dont want much of. Single shot high doses of test increase both of them. But I think a one time only shot wouldn’t cause to much issues.

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
Chushin wrote:

Stopped the T cream I was using, and really crashed and burned… Got really sad and depressed.

Ouch! I hate to hear that. I am about to go overseas for 2 weeks and I aint taking any pharmacueticals with me. Just some Vit C and a couple other Vitamins. Anybody have any suggestions as to how one might execute a soft landing?

[/quote]

[quote]PV Wolf wrote:
My numbers before HRT were 237 total, 9.7 free. After 2 mos. of A- Gel, i had numbers of 635 total and 18.5 free. a month after that, they were down around 520 and 15. With my numbers, dosage and duration of AGel use, what can I expect when I stop using it?
[/quote]

IMHO you are in for a world of grief if you stop the testosterone.

Your testicles are no longer functioning as your body knows that it can depend on the androgel.

So when you stop the androgel, you will crash and burn.

There are ways to get your testicles to start production again – KSman can address that better than I can, but it will not happen overnight. And it won’t be better than what you had before. I would recommend you don’t stop.

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
Interesting. Alot of people would probably opt for you to take a super mega dose all at once, maybe 2 weeks worth, [/quote]

I would do it if I were shooting. I have a cream. I guess I’ll just deal with it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why men on TRT don’t cycle in an effort to keep endogenous production healthy? Or do they?

[quote]e-loo wrote:
PV Wolf wrote:
My numbers before HRT were 237 total, 9.7 free. After 2 mos. of A- Gel, i had numbers of 635 total and 18.5 free. a month after that, they were down around 520 and 15. With my numbers, dosage and duration of AGel use, what can I expect when I stop using it?

IMHO you are in for a world of grief if you stop the testosterone.

Your testicles are no longer functioning as your body knows that it can depend on the androgel.

So when you stop the androgel, you will crash and burn.

There are ways to get your testicles to start production again – KSman can address that better than I can, but it will not happen overnight. And it won’t be better than what you had before. I would recommend you don’t stop.

[/quote]
Thanks for the replies - blood test results today are as I suspected, total 450, free 15. They are slowly going down with each test. The doc said I might be a good candidate for the shots, every 2 weeks. I said my T-Nation research suggests thats too long
between shots and she said 100 every week might work. I know there is a wealth of info here on shots and I am going to surf around and try to read it all
but as a newbie to shots, is 100/week a decent place to start? Would you agree that the above numbers are not satisfactory for over 4 mos. on 10mg of AGel ? Part of me is glad the numbers are not high enough because if the shots get my numbers up, I may have a chance at some results.
I really want to lose the AD meds.
again - thanks for your thoughts. PV

[quote]PV Wolf wrote:
but as a newbie to shots, is 100/week a decent place to start? [/quote]

I still feel like a real newbie, so take what I say w a grain of salt – however, that seems like a pretty standard dosage and it seems to work for a lot of guys – from what I can tell that is the dosage that the majority of T-Nation HRT’ers are on.

I quoted this guideline from the American Assc of Clinical Endocrinologists here and elsewhere but it is good to have handy:


http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGISTS
MEDICAL GUIDELINES FOR CLINICAL PRACTICE
FOR THE EVALUATION AND TREATMENT OF HYPOGONADISM
IN ADULT MALE PATIENTS 2002 UPDATE

see P 11:

For complete androgen replacement, the regimen should be between 50 and 100 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate [b]administered intramuscularly every 7 to 10 days, which will achieve relatively normal levels of testosterone throughout the time interval between injections (50).[/b] Longer time intervals are more convenient but are associated with greater fluctuations in testosterone levels. Higher doses of testosterone produce longer-term effects but also higher peak levels and wider swings between peak and nadir circulating testosterone levels; the result is fluctuating symptoms in many patients (51).

The use of 100 to 150 mg of testosterone every 2
weeks is a reasonable compromise. Use of 300-mg injections every 3 weeks is associated with wider fluctuations of testosterone levels and is generally inadequate to ensure a consistent clinical response. With use of these longer interval regimens, many men will have pronounced symptoms during the week preceding the next injection. In such
instances, a smaller dose at closer intervals should be tried.(53).

[quote]PV Wolf wrote:
Thanks for the replies - blood test results today are as I suspected, total 450, free 15. They are slowly going down with each test. PV

[/quote]
PV while you are waiting to go on the shot you might give niacin a try, Take a look at the “increasing test absorption thread”.

I was reviewing the thread in anticipation of an upcoming doctor visit – was reminded about how much great general HRT/TRT info is contained here from several knowledgeable posters.

[quote]e-loo wrote:

I was reviewing the thread in anticipation of an upcoming doctor visit – was reminded about how much great general HRT/TRT info is contained here from several knowledgeable posters.[/quote]

Do you get blood work done in advance to that when you visit, you can discuss the levels and what should be done about this? This allows you to discuss your symptoms and the lab results are there to support conclusions and dose changes. I think that a visit with a blood draw and lab results later and a phone call from the Doctor’s office is wrong.

What dose of T now? Injection frequency?

How does that dose perform until the next injection?

Nocturnal wood? Morning wood?

Mood?

Energy?

Brain fog?

Your E2 was 40 6 months ago.
Are you taking an AI now?
What effects has that had?

Is E2 testing part if your normal testing?

Loosing any weight? yes/no/can’t? E2 is critical here.

Any changes to fat distribution patterns? Higher levels of E2 will focus fat on your gut and butt.

Changes to skin thickness/elasticity? This will happen with or without elevated E.

Muscle gains? For me, I had that with higher E2 levels, so the anabolic response did not seem to be affected by my higher E2 levels.

Libido: Should improve a lot if E2 levels are reduced. A big change for me going from E2=37–>22.

Any HCG?

Do you get thyroid levels tested?

The above issues are all something that you should be discussing with your Doctor.

In late April my endo increased my dosage to 1ml/200mg every 10 days. (previously it was 1ml every 14 days)

I have been following that protocol – am injecting every 10 days. EOD injections did not seem to work for me. The injections seem to last pretty well although there are a couple of dead days. I think injecting every 7 days would be about right.

I started self-medicating AI about the same time. After several frustrating conversations w my endo ("estrogen doesn’t matter, only steroid abusers need Anti-aromatase inhibitors) I gave up on trying to convince him.

So while I should have been “scientific” about it and only changed one variable at a time (for example testosterone dosage, then AI) I just jumped right in.

I started with 1mg of Anastrozole divided up EOD. After a week I upped that to 2mg –

By the end of May/beginning of June I noticed something:

MY MIND WAS BACK. The brain fog was gone, my brain is again working the way it used to. It is like a miracle, because I had really started expecting to be ‘impaired’ for the rest of my life given how things were going

As to my other complaints – Libido is vastly improved. Morning wood now.

Fatigue – I still have days of low energy where it is difficult to get much done (however I have to note that I have been having chronic shoulder pain for about a year – a rotator cuff that I have been putting off repairing {finally did it last week} - so the fatigue/lack of energy could be caused by that)

I definitely feel that AI has had a lot to do with this improvement. I don’t feel the increased test alone would have allowed this. Again I should have been more scientific re adjusting one variable at a time.

But dammit I am impatient – I wanted to feel better.

For my last two labs I have requested that E2 be tested, but somehow there was a “mixup” the first time and it wasn’t. The last set up labs was done thru the nurse, and she would not order E2 testing. Very frustrating.

I have found another doctor nearby who does HRT and he and I seem to have a good rapport. I saw him this month for an unrelated problem – I asked him if we could discuss TRT next month. I will get labs done before I see him.

Ok now to answer questions that I did not cover in the summary:

[quote]KSman wrote:

Loosing any weight? yes/no/can’t? E2 is critical here. Any changes to fat distribution patterns? Higher levels of E2 will focus fat on your gut and butt.[/quote]

I could not lose fat until about 2 ore 3 weeks into the AI. Then I began to lose fat. Too early to tell on fat distribution.

The shoulder surgery appears to have caused a setback on the fat loss. I am a week out of that, and that is to be expected as I have had to stop lifing and all cardio

My skin was more elastic about a month after starting injections (October 06) – so yes elevated e2 does not seem to matter.

I made a concentrated effort to put on some muscle at the end of 2006. I put on about 8lbs of muscle in a month and a half. Not affected by E2 levels in my case either. While I know for sure about that 8lbs because of before and after caliper readings I think I am up about 15 to 20lbs muscle since starting HRT. (Important to note that my endo reported several signs of MUSCLE WASTING in my preliminary visit)

[quote] Libido: Should improve a lot if E2 levels are reduced. A big change for me going from E2=37–>22.

Any HCG?

Do you get thyroid levels tested?

The above issues are all something that you should be discussing with your Doctor.[/quote]

Libido could be a little better. I will see in these next labs exactly where E2 levels are.

No HCG

Thyroid function is normal.

Hello all. I am new to this forum, but have been in contact with several of you already via PMs. I have been hanging around in the “My experience on the anabolic diet” forum since July (300 pages). That diet is geared at raising T levels naturally through diet. I did actually achieve good levels after 1 month of that strategy with no other HRT assistance confirmed by the Aug. 15 lab results.

August 15, 2007

Total T: 32.6 nmol/L on ref range of 7.37-23.08
Free T: 394 nmol/L on ref range of 163-508
Bioavailable T: 9.47 nmol/L on ref range of 3.94-12.31
Estradiol: 82 pmol/L or adult male ref range of 55-165
SHBG: 81.9 nmol/L or ref range of 10.5-50.4 !!!
Free T3 (Thyroid): 6.1 pmol/L on ref range of 2.8-7.1
TSH (Thyroid): 1.14 mU/L on ref range of 0.40-4.50

As you can see, my elevated SHBG necessitates a very elevated total T to produce decent free T in my case. Also note that my estradiol level was nearing mid level of the ref range. Normally over the past 5 years my estradiol has been low on the ref range or actually below it altogether. I have remarked that it is only when I achieve decent T numbers that my estradiol rises to any degree at all. That is why I am focused on my elevated SHBG.

Unfortunately my greatly improved morale, energy, libido, and strength flagged as the summer ended and by November 29th my blood test revealed the following:

Nov. 29, 2007

Total T: 18.9 nmol/L on ref range of 7.37-23.08
Free T: 207 pmol/L on ref range of 163-508
Bioavailable T: 4.97 nmol/L on ref range of 3.94-12.31
Estradiol: 50 pmol/L on ref range of 55-165
Free T3 (thyroid): 3.9 pmol/L on ref range of 2.8-7.1
TSH: 1.3 mU/L on ref range of 0.40-4.50
IGF-1 (Growth hormone indicator): 16.5 nmol/L on ref range of 8.4-29.5

Note low estradiol level and lower T3 level as free T descends from prior test. Metabolism has slowed down. The November 29th results are typical of my results from a dozen or so tests over the last 5 years.

The only other occasion when my free-T was high was when I was treated by Cenegenics in Las Vegas with 5000 I.U. hCG twice weekly sub-cutaneous along with 1 mg pill Arimidex daily. That course of treatment produced the following results after 30 days:

August 9, 2006

Total T: 1631 ng/dL on ref range of 250-1100
Free T: 181 pg/mL on ref range of 35.0-155.0
Dihydrotestosterone: 82 ng/dL on ref range of 25-75
Estradiol, Ultra sensitivity 35 pg/mL on ref range of 10-50
Free T3 (Thyroid): 192 pg/dL on ref range of 230-420
Free T4 (Thyroid): 0.96 ng/dL on ref range 0.8-1.8
TSH (Thyroid): 2.49 mu/L on ref range of 0.40-5.5

I discontinued that treatment as it was cost prohibitive.

For a time after November 2007 I went through a really rough patch where my morale was extremely low and I became more introverted after a summer of being very social. Now I actually feel pretty good again. Libido was up today and I socialized for the first time in a while. I have not been “down” for several weeks. I would certainly like to achieve consistency for morale, energy, libido, strength, body composition, etc. I have made several tweaks to my diet (still the Anabolic Diet) and this may account for my recent upturn. I am not certain. I may be bipoler for all I know. I do sometimes experience periods of manic energy and also periods of feeling worthless. I don’t know exactly what the split is, but for the last several weeks and right now I feel good.

I’ll provide some info:

  • 46 years of age
  • 6 feet tall
  • 160 lbs
  • small boned so not scrawny, but certainly an ectomorph
  • Weight train & cardio regularly
  • Currently not following any HRT except thyroid Armour (60 mg/day) for slightly underactive thyroid
  • Also take 50 mg DHEA and 50 mg Pregnenolone daily which I simply consider as supplements. Thesy have not boosted nor detracted from my T levels in the last few years that I have been taking them.
  • No head trauma that has proved causal to hormonal imbalance
  • Diagnosed with osteopenia (precursor to osteoperosis) presumably following years of low free T.
  • Otherwise good health, excellent cardiovascular profile, C Reactive Protein, Homocysteine
  • Consistently low PSA and negative prostrate issues digital rectal exam
  • Nocturnal wood = yes
  • Morning wood = sometimes
  • Wet dreams = was happening once a week 1 month after starting the AD (anabolic diet) coupled with increased daytime libido. Now it has been several weeks since occurance of wet dreams.
  • testicles full and hanging comfortably (prior to AD, testicles were often reduced in size and sinched up in tightened sac)

I am seeking any advice on inexpensive ways to boost my free T and reduce my SHBG levels respectively. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything effective at lowering SHBG? Is Adex known to be effective for that? I am temted to try Adex to see how I would react.

Feel free to ask more details if required. Thanks in advance.

Happy New Year to all!!

[quote]Black Cat wrote:

I am seeking any advice on inexpensive ways to boost my free T and reduce my SHBG levels respectively. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything effective at lowering SHBG? Is Adex known to be effective for that? I am tempted to try Adex to see how I would react.

[/quote]

You can use adex to lower E2 and SHBC would be expected to reduce from the lower E2. Lower E2 will increase FT.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Black Cat wrote:

I am seeking any advice on inexpensive ways to boost my free T and reduce my SHBG levels respectively. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything effective at lowering SHBG? Is Adex known to be effective for that? I am tempted to try Adex to see how I would react.

You can use adex to lower E2 and SHBC would be expected to reduce from the lower E2. Lower E2 will increase FT.[/quote]

I guess the only concern I have is that my E2 level will descend too low. That can be worse than the original problem of low free-T. I guess trial and error is the only way to find out. It could well be that the E2 ref range doesn’t apply in my case and that my level can fall well below the lower ref range and I may still feel great. As I mentioned, my average E2 level over the last 5 years has been bordering on the low ref range for adult males so is not flagging itself as a concern. It is interesting that each instance that I am successful at raising my free-T to decent levels, my E2 does rise to somewhere below mid ref range. Since I feel pretty good now, my free-T is probably at near decent levels, so it would be a good time to try Adex. Is a prescription required from research chemical firms on the Internet? Does anyone know of a supplier in Canada? I am in Montreal. I haven’t checked around yet. Ontothenext recommended starting at 1mg/week split into EOD doses. Sounds like a sensible start to me??

I would love to have constant drive to take on projects. That is one thing I have lacked for a long time.

Additional info: Forgot to mention in prior post that I do have a 1 - 1 1/2 inch fold around the belly in spite of being lean overall. I look positively Auschwitzian whenever I lean out enough to eradicate that small belly roll.

[quote]Black Cat wrote:

  • 6 feet tall
  • 160 lbs
    [/quote]


I have not read your diet thread, but looking at those stats I wonder if you are starving yourself. The “belly roll” could be an indication of that too –

If you are chronically undereating that could be one source of your problems.

It appears to me that you should be focusing on adding some muscle/weight to your frame.

Perhaps Dr. Berardi’s “Scrawny to Brawny” book would be appropriate to you.

Are you SURE you are getting enough to eat?

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Black Cat wrote:

  • 6 feet tall
  • 160 lbs

Black Cat wrote:Additional info: Forgot to mention in prior post that I do have a 1 - 1 1/2 inch fold around the belly in spite of being lean overall. I look positively Auschwitzian whenever I lean out enough to eradicate that small belly roll.


I have not read your diet thread, but looking at those stats I wonder if you are starving yourself. The “belly roll” could be an indication of that too –

If you are chronically undereating that could be one source of your problems.

It appears to me that you should be focusing on adding some muscle/weight to your frame.

Perhaps Dr. Berardi’s “Scrawny to Brawny” book would be appropriate to you.

Are you SURE you are getting enough to eat?

[/quote]

Thanks for weighing in. I am an exctomorph = hard gainer. It is not unusual to be 6 feet tall and weight only 160 lbs with a very small bone structure and narrow shoulders. Your suggestion of Dr. Berardi’s book certainly cannot hurt and it is always a good practice to amass strategies from highly successful people.

My typical low carb day (6 days per week):

  • Breakfast: 4 scrambled whole eggs with a heaping tablespoon of ground flaxseed and topped with a 2 super heaping tablespoon of natural almond butter, coffee with 35% cream

  • Snack: Handfull of raw almonds

  • lunch: Large baby spinach salad with 1 heaping tablespoon ground flaxseed, tbsp parmigiana cheese, small handful of pictacios, 8 - 10 oz chicken or salmon or ground beef, olive oil based vinigrette, coffee with 35% cream

  • Snack: Handful of raw almonds

  • Dinner: Two heads of steamed broccoli, 1 heaping tbsp ground flaxseed, 1 tbsp parmigiana, drizzle of olive oil, and 8 - 10 oz of various meats, coffee with 35% cream.

  • 6 gel caps omega-3 spread out during day.

  • 8 - 10 glasses of water spread out during day

  • 1 peri-workout protein shake per day consisting of 10 oz water, 1 scoop protein powder, 1 packet Stevia sweetener, 1/2 tsp 0 carb jello.

  • Snack: Handful of raw walnuts

I don’t calculate calories and eat my fill but I would estimate roughly 4000 calories per day. I never let more that 3 hours go by without eating.

Typical carb load day (1 day per week):

Breakfast - French Toast:

  • 4 slices multi-grain french toast
  • 3 whole eggs
  • 1/3 cup maple syrup
  • sprinkle cinnamon
  • pan heated in butter
  • Coffee with 2% milk

Snack: 1 large sweet potato

Lunch:

  • large plate of whole wheat pasta with very generous serving tomato sauce smothered in parmigiana cheese and chilli peppers

  • Coffee with 2% milk

Snack:

  • Large bowl (large flake - old fashioned) oatmeal = 3/4 cup dry with 1 1/2 cups water, 1 scoop protein powder, 1/3 cup blueberries, 1/3 cup raspberries, 3/4 cup 2% milk, 1 packet Stevia

Dinner: - Same as lunch

Snack: - dessert treat such as a chocolat donut, pinapple juice

Don’t even ask me to calculate the calories on my carb load day.

What do you think

Eating “enough” is relative.

If you are trying to gain muscle, you are not eating enough - for you - to support that growth. 4000 kcals a day is not enough on the AD for some of us. Don’t worry so much about your one carb day, but make sure the other 6 are seeing a calorie increase to support your growth. What does your training look like?

If you gain some muscle, the increased “life” inside your body will eat away at that belly roll for you.

[quote]Black Cat wrote:
e-loo wrote:
Black Cat wrote:

  • 6 feet tall
  • 160 lbs

Black Cat wrote:Additional info: Forgot to mention in prior post that I do have a 1 - 1 1/2 inch fold around the belly in spite of being lean overall. I look positively Auschwitzian whenever I lean out enough to eradicate that small belly roll.


I have not read your diet thread, but looking at those stats I wonder if you are starving yourself. The “belly roll” could be an indication of that too –

If you are chronically undereating that could be one source of your problems.

It appears to me that you should be focusing on adding some muscle/weight to your frame.

Perhaps Dr. Berardi’s “Scrawny to Brawny” book would be appropriate to you.

Are you SURE you are getting enough to eat?

Thanks for weighing in. I am an exctomorph = hard gainer. It is not unusual to be 6 feet tall and weight only 160 lbs with a very small bone structure and narrow shoulders. Your suggestion of Dr. Berardi’s book certainly cannot hurt and it is always a good practice to amass strategies from highly successful people.

My typical low carb day (6 days per week):

  • Breakfast: 4 scrambled whole eggs with a heaping tablespoon of ground flaxseed and topped with a 2 super heaping tablespoon of natural almond butter, coffee with 35% cream

  • Snack: Handfull of raw almonds

  • lunch: Large baby spinach salad with 1 heaping tablespoon ground flaxseed, tbsp parmigiana cheese, small handful of pictacios, 8 - 10 oz chicken or salmon or ground beef, olive oil based vinigrette, coffee with 35% cream

  • Snack: Handful of raw almonds

  • Dinner: Two heads of steamed broccoli, 1 heaping tbsp ground flaxseed, 1 tbsp parmigiana, drizzle of olive oil, and 8 - 10 oz of various meats, coffee with 35% cream.

  • 6 gel caps omega-3 spread out during day.

  • 8 - 10 glasses of water spread out during day

  • 1 peri-workout protein shake per day consisting of 10 oz water, 1 scoop protein powder, 1 packet Stevia sweetener, 1/2 tsp 0 carb jello.

  • Snack: Handful of raw walnuts

I don’t calculate calories and eat my fill but I would estimate roughly 4000 calories per day. I never let more that 3 hours go by without eating.

Typical carb load day (1 day per week):

Breakfast - French Toast:

  • 4 slices multi-grain french toast
  • 3 whole eggs
  • 1/3 cup maple syrup
  • sprinkle cinnamon
  • pan heated in butter
  • Coffee with 2% milk

Snack: 1 large sweet potato

Lunch:

  • large plate of whole wheat pasta with very generous serving tomato sauce smothered in parmigiana cheese and chilli peppers

  • Coffee with 2% milk

Snack:

  • Large bowl (large flake - old fashioned) oatmeal = 3/4 cup dry with 1 1/2 cups water, 1 scoop protein powder, 1/3 cup blueberries, 1/3 cup raspberries, 3/4 cup 2% milk, 1 packet Stevia

Dinner: - Same as lunch

Snack: - dessert treat such as a chocolat donut, pinapple juice

Don’t even ask me to calculate the calories on my carb load day.

What do you think
[/quote]

[quote]ontothenext wrote:
Eating “enough” is relative.

If you are trying to gain muscle, you are not eating enough - for you - to support that growth. 4000 kcals a day is not enough on the AD for some of us. Don’t worry so much about your one carb day, but make sure the other 6 are seeing a calorie increase to support your growth. What does your training look like?

If you gain some muscle, the increased “life” inside your body will eat away at that belly roll for you.

[/quote]

That’s the intuitive direction one would adopt. I found that eating around 500 - 1000 more calories per day while religiosly following CW high frequency training for 2+ months was adding to my paunch. I was gaining a little muscle, but my belly became a problem and I pared down a little to what I am currently consuming.

As I said, I am a hard gainer and even the intensity of CW high frequency (8 challenging workouts per week / 2 per day x 4 days) did not reap major gains. All that effort - training at 5 am and then again after work at 3 pm 4 days per week - low reps & heavy in the am and high reps and less heavy in the pm - and I was getting fatter!! I prefer to remain fairly lean and I haven’t lost much muscle.

I am currently doing Bill Starr 5 x 5 which is a walk in the park compared to the high frequency I was doing. I will change soon. Bottom line is if free-T is low you can work till you are blue in the face and not gain much muscle. That is doubly true for an ectomorph at 46 years of age. I cannot rely on the hormonal boosting effect of better body composition. I need higher free-T to achieve better body comp. Short of being one on one with Charles Poliquin for 6 months, I need higher free-T.

I’d rethink the flaxseed if I were you. The lignan in flax binds to testosterone and makes it inert. In fact, doctors recommend it to prostate cancer patients to lower their free testosterone.

All of the benefits of flax (fiber, omega oils, ALA) can be found in other sources that won’t bind testosterone.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
I’d rethink the flaxseed if I were you. The lignan in flax binds to testosterone and makes it inert. In fact, doctors recommend it to prostate cancer patients to lower their free testosterone.

All of the benefits of flax (fiber, omega oils, ALA) can be found in other sources that won’t bind testosterone.[/quote]

Interesting. I haven’t heard of this. I’ll check into it. Can you direct me to reputable research?

Thanks…

Found this thread. Not conclusive. I will keep looking…

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1631716&pageNo=0

Found this one. It raises cause for concern.

Quote from link below: "Additionally, lignans have also been shown to inhibit other enzymes, which are essential for the synthesis of testosterone and estrogen. Lignans may also potentially reduce the amount of testosterone available for the body to use. In the average male, only a small amount of testosterone roams free in the blood. Most testosterone is bound to protein called sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). An increase in SHBG would theoretically leave less testosterone available to stimulate prostate cell growth. Lignans have been shown to increase SHBG production in test tube studies and research also demonstrates that people consuming large amounts of lignans exhibit increased blood levels of SHBG. "

http://www.americanwellnessnetwork.com/content/view/599/46/

I may well cut out the generous amount of ground flaxseed I am consuming. I was also using lef.org omega-3 with sesame lignans. May have to reconsider that too. It would be amazing if I could reduce my SHBG levels so simply.

[quote]Black Cat wrote:
Found this thread. Not conclusive. I will keep looking…

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1631716&pageNo=0

Found this one. It raises cause for concern.

Quote from link below: "Additionally, ligands have also been shown to inhibit other enzymes, which are essential for the synthesis of testosterone and estrogen. Ligands may also potentially reduce the amount of testosterone available for the body to use. In the average male, only a small amount of testosterone roams free in the blood. Most testosterone is bound to protein called sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). An increase in SHBG would theoretically leave less testosterone available to stimulate prostate cell growth. Ligands have been shown to increase SHBG production in test tube studies and research also demonstrates that people consuming large amounts of ligands exhibit increased blood levels of SHBG. "

http://www.americanwellnessnetwork.com/content/view/599/46/

I may well cut out the generous amount of ground flax seed I am consuming. I was also using lef.org omega-3 with sesame ligands. May have to reconsider that too. It would be amazing if I could reduce my SHBG levels so simply.
[/quote]

You believe all of that?

“Ligands have been shown to increase SHBG production in test tube studies”

SHBG is produced in the liver. SHBG increases in response to higher E levels. Any other effects like that… one can never say no.

I don’t know how you make SHBG in a test tube, put a fully functional liver in there? Maybe liver cells do not like test tubes.

What is seen in lab work does not always translate to real life dose-response facts.

The LEF ligands are from sesame seed. Sesame seed oil has ligands in it. Too bad for the guys taking testosterone ethanate [made with sesame seed oil.

The ligand-SHBG link does exist. But without knowing the significant of the amounts in diet or supplements, is the effect significant? Many have reported some good results from fish oils, perhaps in the balance, fish oils with ligands are better than nothing. If one were to eliminate all ligands from their diet, would that be an improvement or the opposite.

I did not read all of the context in this thread that led up to this post… my bad.