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Pharma TRT
101

Another Dumbass question –

On medical sites regarding test injections every 2 weeks I read:

“Men receiving intramuscular testosterone injections achieve a peak testosterone level 48 to 72 hours after an injection and reach the nadir 12 to 14 days later.”

So here is the dumbass question, because for some reason I just don’t get the math/variables involved:

Is the peak timing the same when injecting smaller amts?

That is – if I inject 100mg per week, is peak still 48 to 72 hrs after injection?

Or on the KSman-style EOD regimen (patent pending), is peak still 48 to 72hrs after injection of 28mgs?

Or is the peak time tied to the size of the injection? (obviously the peak level is tied to the size of the injection)

102

With EOD, there will hardly be a peak at all as there are a few active wave forms overlapping all the time.

103

Dunno guys. Injecting every 7 days seem “almost” right. But not quite.

I find myself thinking – “It has been 5 days. My body wants more testosterone.”

Just thinking out loud.

104

Some, waiting for their next injection, with HPTA suppression, can have free T levels fall below where they were before starting TRT*. But theory only goes so far. They only way to know what will feel better is to try it.

If you feel drained on day 5, then you can see if that feeling goes away with more frequent injections. Know what level feels like and then go for longer duration and see if that still works. You can aways go back to once a week. If you try EOD, I suggest starting on on day 3 after your weekly so you are not trying to pull back out of a hole with small doses.

  • Peaks from less frequent injections can promote higher SHBG and E levels that make the low T levels feel even worse.

I did ED for a while and then went to EOD, which felt better in a way. To be in harmony with my HCG EOD injections, that’s where I stayed. Never tried twice a week.

105

[quote]KSman wrote:
Some, waiting for their next injection, with HPTA suppression, can have free T levels fall below where they were before starting TRT*. If you feel drained on day 5, then you can see if that feeling goes away with more frequent injections.
[/quote]

I probably need to track it a few more times.

I actually still feel pretty good on day 5. It is the day of the injection and the day after the injection that I feel like I am running out of steam. (However it is in no way as bad as before I started HRT)

I inject on Wednesday, so I have those couple of sluggish days Wed and Thurs. Friday I am coming back. Saturday good. etc.

Not making much sense so I will summarize again – I just am having a slump for the day of and 2 or 3 days after my injecion.

Does that make any sense or is it all in my head?

–

106

Wow! I have found this thread to be extremely useful. Hope you won’t mind answering a few questions from a rookie. Just started on a 10% compounded Test cream 12/2/06, less than 2 weeks. I guess it will come as no surprise that i have been underwhelmed by the response. I have noted 2 effects:

  1. I began waking up about an hour or 2 before normal and rather that laying in bed for some 30 minutes groggy and lethargic I was refreshed and ready to start my day. Great!
  2. I went a little up-bubble on libido and orgasm intensity:)
    Those two effects are now gone:( and the major impact that I am hoping for in terms of energy level and weight loss has yet to appear. Now after reading this thread I understand that it will be some time, if ever, before i should expect significant improvement. So let me tell y’all what i did and get any suggestions.

After about 3 days of zero improvement I got impatient, I am an American after all, and I doubled up on my dosage; 1 gram AM and 1 gram PM. I have been doing that for 9 or 10 days and I have noticed no improvement, though for the first few days I did have a faint buzz . So today i decided that it would be a closer simulation of my natural rhythm to take both grams (200mg of which @10% is absorbed transdermally) in the AM when natural Test peaks. Gotta say i feel a little bit more energy today.

I have also been doing 350 IU HCG x 2/Week.

I did get a nice little placebo effect; started lifting again.

I am curious as to any comments/suggestions y’all might have and have a question. When one takes enough niacin one gets a flush, which is vaso-dilation, of the upper body. Anyone have any idea whether flushing would or should increase absorption of transdermal test?

Thanks for this thread gents it has been very informative. PS KSman’s ideas on frequency of dosing make complete sense to me, it is why I hope to be able to use the cream- much closer simulation of natural rhythms should mean less negative feedback.

107

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
Wow! I have found this thread to be extremely useful. Hope you won’t mind answering a few questions from a rookie. Just started on a 10% compounded Test cream 12/2/06, less than 2 weeks. I guess it will come as no surprise that i have been underwhelmed by the response. I have noted 2 effects:

  1. I began waking up about an hour or 2 before normal and rather that laying in bed for some 30 minutes groggy and lethargic I was refreshed and ready to start my day. Great!
  2. I went a little up-bubble on libido and orgasm intensity:)
    Those two effects are now gone:( and the major impact that I am hoping for in terms of energy level and weight loss has yet to appear. Now after reading this thread I understand that it will be some time, if ever, before i should expect significant improvement. So let me tell y’all what i did and get any suggestions.

After about 3 days of zero improvement I got impatient, I am an American after all, and I doubled up on my dosage; 1 gram AM and 1 gram PM. I have been doing that for 9 or 10 days and I have noticed no improvement, though for the first few days I did have a faint buzz . So today i decided that it would be a closer simulation of my natural rhythm to take both grams (200mg of which @10% is absorbed transdermally) in the AM when natural Test peaks. Gotta say i feel a little bit more energy today.

I have also been doing 350 IU HCG x 2/Week.

I did get a nice little placebo effect; started lifting again.

I am curious as to any comments/suggestions y’all might have and have a question. When one takes enough niacin one gets a flush, which is vaso-dilation, of the upper body. Anyone have any idea whether flushing would or should increase absorption of transdermal test?

Thanks for this thread gents it has been very informative. PS KSman’s ideas on frequency of dosing make complete sense to me, it is why I hope to be able to use the cream- much closer simulation of natural rhythms should mean less negative feedback.[/quote]

Some do not absorb transdermals very well. Doubling up to one dose may simply run up against a wall of diminishing returns. Many of the benefits require that the cells change gene expression and then subsequent tissue changes need to occur. There are also changes in the brain, and changes in thought patterns need to follow that.

If you were to get 10mg into your system everyday, that would be very effective. you seem to be going too fast. What happens when your supply is gone and you can’t get more?

10% absorption is ideal and many do not get that at all… those do better injecting. If you are getting good absorption, you are headed for levels of E that will negate many of the effects of the T. Might get breast tissue development or sore nipples. Might need anti-E in time with any effective delivery system.

Typically, blood levels of T stabilize quite fast and blood work is often done in 2 or 3 weeks. In any case, when you have your blood work done, if its high, your script will be reduced. One thing that cannot be seen on early blood work is elevated E and reduced FT from the increases in SHBG… that all takes about 2 months to settle down.

Weight loss will take a couple of months.

Ask if you can do 250IU HCG EOD. That was quite helpful for me.
Print this for your doc or email to him.
http://dspace.hsl.washington.edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf

It probably took years of declining T to get you into some state of crappiness. You are nuts expecting a mind/body response in this time frame. Skin changes can be seen in 4 to 6 weeks. That is an obvious indication of tissue remodeling.

If you are getting lots of nocturnal wood , that is a good sign. Morning wood is even better. Morning wood that goes away probably is an indication of E levels increasing. When that happens, anti-E can restore that.

108

KSman wrote:

'If you were to get 10mg into your system everyday, that would be very effective. you seem to be going too fast. What happens when your supply is gone and you can’t get more?

10% absorption is ideal and many do not get that at all… those do better injecting. If you are getting good absorption, you are headed for levels of E that will negate many of the effects of the T. Might get breast tissue development or sore nipples. Might need anti-E in time with any effective delivery system. "

Well if I understand you then you think that if I were to succeed in absorbing 140mg/wk that would cause excessive aromatization?

“Typically, blood levels of T stabilize quite fast and blood work is often done in 2 or 3 weeks. In any case, when you have your blood work done, if its high, your script will be reduced. One thing that cannot be seen on early blood work is elevated E and reduced FT from the increases in SHBG… that all takes about 2 months to settle down.”

I dont think I have any blood work scheduled for many months. One of the things that has become clear to me after reading this thread is that my Doc, whom I have never met, is not going to be tracking me near as thoroughly as y’alls. Or what the heck lets just say he isnt going to be tracking me at all. I think we do a blood test in 6 or 9 months. So I won’t have to worry about my scrip getting downsized. I will obviously run out of cream long before i am supposed to, but I think that I need to find a local Doc and I hope to get that done long before I run out.

“Ask if you can do 250IU HCG EOD. That was quite helpful for me.
Print this for your doc or email to him.
http://dspace.hsl.washington.edu/dspace/bitstream/2012/52/1/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf”

Thanks. I’ll keep it for my new Doc.

“It probably took years of declining T to get you into some state of crappiness. You are nuts expecting a mind/body response in this time frame. Skin changes can be seen in 4 to 6 weeks. That is an obvious indication of tissue remodeling.”

I was tested at 217 total T. Funny, because my libido is close to what it has always been. I learned to barefoot ski this summer ( I am 47). I started lifting weights 3 years ago. I do hard cardio sprints for 30 min (resting HR is often 60).So I was better off than a lot of the guys here. But I could not lose weight and I just did not have half the energy that I used to have.

“If you are getting lots of nocturnal wood , that is a good sign. Morning wood is even better. Morning wood that goes away probably is an indication of E levels increasing. When that happens, anti-E can restore that.”

The only woody I am getting is when I have to pee.

109

Michael – the one thing I learned from all of this is that it takes time. Unfortunately. Because patience is not one of my strong points.

I started in August. I didn’t find a treatment that worked for me until October. That is kind of par for the course.

I started the injections on OCT 18th. It has been 2 months now and I would say I feel about 85% myself. The guys here have told me it is going to take some more time.

At any rate, and sorry for yelling YOU NEED TO BE TESTED MORE FREQUENTLY, at least until you get your levels regulated.

Can you find a local doc? Or at least a local doc who will do labs for you?

Here is how it worked for me

Androgel for a month
Blood Test – crappy levels, worse than began

Some docs would up the androgel dosage, and test again in a month. But instead:

Striant for a month
Blood Testing – crappy levels, worse than when began

Injections for a month
Blood Testing at trough – good levels

Frequent testing is important to see if the testosterone treatment is working for you. Once you are stabilized, not so much. But right now is critical, because some treatments work for some people, and some don’t . 9 MONTHS IS WAYYYYYY TOOOO LONG TO WAIT.

110

I am so damn irritable yesterday and today I am like a bear. Doesn’t help that people are trying so hard to irritate me - LOL.

If everybody would just do what I say, the world would be a hell of a better place.

At any rate, I blame the E2.

111

[quote]e-loo wrote:

Frequent testing is important to see if the testosterone treatment is working for you. Once you are stabilized, not so much. But right now is critical, because some treatments work for some people, and some don’t . 9 MONTHS IS WAYYYYYY TOOOO LONG TO WAIT.

[/quote]

Could not agree with you more. This thread has convinced me of this point. What we are doing is not to be taken lightly. I need to find a local Doc. I live in a small coastal town, rural Texas. Pop. 12K. I will probably need to find a cooperative Doc since it is unlikely that i will find an HRT experienced one.

BTW I am getting a little more pop outta my 2 g in the AM, take it with niacin. Hope it lasts this time, or even improves. I don’t want to take the shot because I think it is a constant negative feedback. One should try to mimic natural rhythms and that is easier to do with the topical formulations.

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. Its all about spreading Grace.

112

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:

I don’t want to take the shot because I think it is a constant negative feedback. One should try to mimic natural rhythms and that is easier to do with the topical formulations.

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. Its all about spreading Grace.[/quote]

If TRT is effective, not always possible with transdermal, then the HPTA is fully repressed (negative feedback). That cannot be avoided. One can keep the testes working with [injected] HCG, but the HPTA is still shut down. You are not going to suffer from "negative feedback, but may suffer from inadequate T levels.

113

[quote]KSman wrote:

If TRT is effective, not always possible with transdermal, then the HPTA is fully repressed (negative feedback). That cannot be avoided. One can keep the testes working with [injected] HCG, but the HPTA is still shut down. You are not going to suffer from "negative feedback, but may suffer from inadequate T levels.

[/quote]

My understanding is that the transdermal product is metabolized fairly quickly. This should mean that ones T levels rise upon application and falls off through the day so only part of each day is there suppression of endogenous T. There is a sine wave. But the injectable is a long lasting compound, metabolizing slowly and therefore constantly suppressing endogenous T production. What makes sense to me about the way you are using your injectable is that by taking smaller amounts more frequently you may be getting positive feedback during the trough.

Now I guess what you are saying is that if one is doing enough TRT to be effective even the trough is going to be too elevated to dip below the negative feedback range?

114

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
I need to find a local Doc. I live in a small coastal town, rural Texas. Pop. 12K. I will probably need to find a cooperative Doc since it is unlikely that i will find an HRT experienced one.[/quote]

My general practitioner MD was all ready to treat me when I first got diagnosed. It was only because of some twists and turns that I ended up w a endocrinologist. So I bet you will be able to find someone. At the very least you can get somebody to draw labs for you locally if you end up working w a remote doc. . .sounds like you could be close to Galveston or Houston.

115

Hi - I am back after 4 + months on 10 mg
of Androgel (2 of the little packs) per day. Currently waiting for the results of a blood test taken this morning. My problem was anxiety/ depression / fatigue, about 14 months total. My numbers before HRT were 237 total, 9.7 free. After 2 mos. of A- Gel, i had numbers of 635 total and 18.5 free. a month after that, they were down around 520 and 15.

the problem is that it has done nothing to make me feel better. I started taking Zoloft 2 mos ago, and I think the AGel has kept the Z from killing my libido but mood, energy, outlook is still not good. The 50 mg Zoloft has helped some but not nearly enough. Since the AGel appears to not be the answer for me, I have some questions : With my numbers, dosage and duration of AGel use, what can I expect when I stop using it? Also - anyone think my Z dose could just be too low ?

I am thinking of switching to Wellbutrin
which is supposed to be kind to the libido. Anyones experience with any of this - stopping Agel, taking Zoloft, wellbutrin etc. would be appreciated.
sorry so long winded - thank you.
PV

116

[quote]PV Wolf wrote:
Anyones experience with any of this - stopping Agel, taking Zoloft, wellbutrin etc. would be appreciated.
sorry so long winded - thank you.
PV
[/quote]

I used Wellbutrin to get me off tobacco. It worked like a charm. And it was a mood elevater too. I quit using it because i would just forget to take it since I had lost my tobacco cravings. Coming off of it was seamless. Getting on it was a bit of a thrill. If I remember my numbers i took about 300mgs/day for 3-5 days then backed off to 150 mg and on Day 14 stopped cold turkey.

The first week while I was dosing up I was a scatterbrained idiot. I had lots of energy but could barely assemble the words for a sentence.

It’s none of my business but I do not think you are taking the right approach with the Zoloft/Wellbutrin. You would be better served by addressing the cause of your fatigue rather than the symptoms. Maybe Test isnt the cause, but one of the things we have learned is that the hormones are an orchestra and one should not treat them in isolation. KSman posts on the ratio of T to E. Have you looked at that? How about thyroid?

Those anti-depressants change your brain chemistry, man. And they dont know what the h*ll the long term effects of any of that pharmacuetical felgercarb are. They trial it for a couple years and if it doesn’t kill too many people the FDA gives em a license. Before i start eating pharmacueticals everyday I would find a Doc who is experienced with HRT and an orthomolecular Doc to to examine your basic biochemistry. If they can cure cancer and the common cold with Vit C maybe they can help you. Good luck!

117

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:

My understanding is that the transdermal product is metabolized fairly quickly. This should mean that ones T levels rise upon application and falls off through the day so only part of each day is there suppression of endogenous T. There is a sine wave. But the injectable is a long lasting compound, metabolizing slowly and therefore constantly suppressing endogenous T production. What makes sense to me about the way you are using your injectable is that by taking smaller amounts more frequently you may be getting positive feedback during the trough.

Now I guess what you are saying is that if one is doing enough TRT to be effective even the trough is going to be too elevated to dip below the negative feedback range?
[/quote]

Yes. Your point seems a bit convoluted. But simply stated, an effective TRT dose is going to be completely shutting down the HPTA feedback loop. So the issues about feedback become rather simplified. So one can put such concerns off the table and look at the broader picture. If one wants to keep the testes working, HCG seems to be the only option. Although some might argue that SERMs might allow for this in some who have HPTAs that are otherwise active and functional. If one does not take HCG, then the testes will be inactive… with consequences.

One consequence of the HPTA is that adding small amounts of T as a boost will not work as the testes will then produce less and nothing is gained. So one needs to take enough T to replace what the body was producing, then more than that to get higher levels.

119

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Stopped the T cream I was using, and really crashed and burned… Got really sad and depressed. [/quote]

Ouch! I hate to hear that. I am about to go overseas for 2 weeks and I aint taking any pharmacueticals with me. Just some Vit C and a couple other Vitamins. Anybody have any suggestions as to how one might execute a soft landing?