HRT Guys - THANK YOU

Pharma TRT
81

E-loo,
Your estradoil is a bit high for sure. Mine was 47, and my doctor said it was only a matter of maybe 5 years before I started having issues with estrogen, even if I never touched HRT/AAS. He recommended that even if I dont go threw with the HRT and decided to maybe wait a few more years till I turned 30, that it would be wise to go on a very low dose standalone anti - e, to get my numbers down into the low 20’s.

Makes alot of sense too, why I never get morning wood yet I have decent test levels(nearly 500 TT) and I get moody/emotional for no reason.

And forget this once a week crap. Im going EOD when I start.

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Those labs from last week:

Liver number all normal

PSA 0.71 ng/mL (0.0 - 3.5)
Total Testosterone 642 ng/dl (6 days after 200mg shot)
Estradiol 40 pg/mL (15-54)

Unfortunately I don’ t have an initial estradiol result, or at least can’t find it.

Nor could I get a free test number when I called – pretty sure he ordered it, will probably have to drop by the office to get it.

I must say that it is nice to see that number, 642 ng/dl – looks much nicer than 152 ng/dl. But numbers are numbers – we’ll see how it goes from here.

I will call the doc about estradiol – yes it is within normal range but seems high normal.

Tomorrow is shot day – still trying to decide whether to go 100mg per week or spliting it in half and do 50mg every third day.

[/quote]

82

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
E-loo,
Your estradoil is a bit high for sure. Mine was 47, and my doctor that it would be wise to go on a very low dose standalone anti - e, to get my numbers down into the low 20’s.

Makes alot of sense too, why I never get morning wood yet I have decent test levels(nearly 500 TT) and I get moody/emotional for no reason.[/quote]

Yep - it does make sense – lack of morning wood and moodiness. When I mentioned these things in the office he said morning wood “will come in time - too soon.” Irritability/Moodiness, he said – “well, probably unrelated.” I suggested estradiol maybe responsible, he was skeptical, but willing to test. (I think I am repeating myself!)

I am REAL glad you posted this. Will be interesting to see what he says now that we have the numbers.

83

Yes I am pretty much impatient. I do want everything to be fixed RIGHT NOW DAMMIT. I read posts on T-Nation that say “I started HRT and now I feel like an ANIMAL.” Well the impatient me is ready to feel like an ANIMAL too. Right now!

But it is important to step back and look at the positive aspects and where I am now. Maybe this is my belated “Testosterone Thanksgiving Post” Here are a couple improvements I’ve seen since starting test injections in mid october.

– Increased mental clarity. To have a mind that is actually able to grasp issues from a larger perspective is a wonderful thing. It almost feels alien to me. My fuzzy low-testosterone brain spent years analysing issues poorly and making poor choices. Now things seem so much clearer to me. It gives me a sense of control over things that I was lacking these last few years.

– Increased energy. There were days when all I could accomplish was one task. Just one. There were other days when I could accomplish nothing. Now most days I get much more done. And what I do is actually good – well done – not poorly executed because that was the best I can do. That sounds stupid – what a thing to be thankful for. But being able to be more productive seems like a real gift to me.

Before I felt like Sisyphus - trying to roll that big boulder up the mountain, having it roll back down over me. Now I am starting to feel like I can get the damn boulder to the top of the mountain and roll it over the other side.

(the impatient me says – Is this perfect yet? HELL NO)

But it feels like a good start.

84

Despite the great advice from KSman on how to do every other day shots using insulin syringes for a more steady delivery, I wimped out and injected 100mg today w my regular old 23G BD SafetyGlide needle.

Was afraid I would screw up w the insulin syringes and not do it right.

Not very T-man of me, I guess. I got paid back for my wimpyness as this is the first injection where I actually felt a little pain when the needle went in. . .pulled it out before I went deeper and found another site.

I know it sounds bizarre to those of you who have been through it before, but I am interested to see how a weekly shot will work w my body (as opposed to the 200mg every other week). Probably not so good. But I have felt like a science experiment now for a while. So may as well experiment.

At any rate, called doc about estradiol levels, he’s out of the office for a few days. So until next week then. In the meantime, I look forward to my testosterone spike.

85

Doc says he is very happy w all my numbers - liver psa total test.

When I asked him about estradiol, he said within normal range. I said normal yes, but 40 seems high – could this be affecting me in this, this. and that?

He said is not uncommon to see that level in someone who has my profile (some other medical conditions I have). Restated that it is too early in the treatment for all my testosterone related issues to be resolved, especially given how long I went without treatment.

So I will plug away, and see how estradiol looks when I do my next labs.

I did notice my skin seems to look a little better. There has been this weird crinkly sagging area underneath my biceps. That seems to have firmed up. Could be wishful thinking, but I’ll go with it.

86

Major improvements in skin elasticity and thickness can occur quite rapidly if the T is enough.

87

I thought I’d post my doctor up for all the boys in Canada.

He a great doc. He uses the optimal range for test levels. Likes to have all patients at the upper 1/3. He wants me at the top or slightly over (cause I am 20).

He also bases his diagnosis more off his unique testing and weighs it against the blood tests. This testing is;

“The Masters Andropause Screening Index (MASI). This is a 50-question survey, which allows the patient to quantify his symptoms of andropause resulting in a score between 0 and 250, with 250 being the most symptomatic”.

I scored a 201 or something like that. He also uses a beck depressin to help in diagnosis.

He deals with lots of younger guys. This was a godsend for me as no doctor would take me seriously.

This may sound like a plug, but I hope it will help guys in Canada that are having trouble. Our health care system is slow to catch up.

88

Hey guys-

I’m 47yrs.old and have been on HRT for approximately 18 months (200 mg. test cyp./week). My MD is clueless on HRT although he was willing to initiate the process. I have a question regarding HCG. If I were to add HCG to the equation, what physiological/psychological benefits might I expect? In addition, is there anything else I might want to include in my HRT weekly “cocktail”? Thanks in advance for your help.

89

[quote]bobbyt wrote:
Hey guys-

I’m 47yrs.old and have been on HRT for approximately 18 months (200 mg. test cyp./week). My MD is clueless on HRT although he was willing to initiate the process. I have a question regarding HCG. If I were to add HCG to the equation, what physiological/psychological benefits might I expect? In addition, is there anything else I might want to include in my HRT weekly “cocktail”? Thanks in advance for your help.[/quote]

Adding HCG will keep your testes working. After 18 months on 200mg test cyp/wk they should be shrunk and perhaps have been or are sore now. They may not come back well after all of this time. Many report an improvement in mood.

That dose is about twice what is normal. The higher dose may be leading to more estrogen. E is bad for your sex drive and prostate. If you get nocturnal wood but no morning wood, that is a sign that E is interfering with libido. If you are getting and breast tissue development or sensitivity, you need anti-E drugs. You would need a strong dose to get rid of gyno and a weaker maintenance dose after that.

I agree, your MD is clueless. Please post your blood work results for total test, free test and estrogen. You should have had a PSA test before you started and a DRE. Those should be repeated every year.

90

[quote]KSman wrote:
bobbyt wrote:
Hey guys-

I’m 47yrs.old and have been on HRT for approximately 18 months (200 mg. test cyp./week). My MD is clueless on HRT although he was willing to initiate the process. I have a question regarding HCG. If I were to add HCG to the equation, what physiological/psychological benefits might I expect? In addition, is there anything else I might want to include in my HRT weekly “cocktail”? Thanks in advance for your help.

Adding HCG will keep your testes working. After 18 months on 200mg test cyp/wk they should be shrunk and perhaps have been or are sore now. They may not come back well after all of this time. Many report an improvement in mood.

That dose is about twice what is normal. The higher dose may be leading to more estrogen. E is bad for your sex drive and prostate. If you get nocturnal wood but no morning wood, that is a sign that E is interfering with libido. If you are getting and breast tissue development or sensitivity, you need anti-E drugs. You would need a strong dose to get rid of gyno and a weaker maintenance dose after that.

I agree, your MD is clueless. Please post your blood work results for total test, free test and estrogen. You should have had a PSA test before you started and a DRE. Those should be repeated every year.[/quote]

I got some gyno/ swelling form HCG. However my E2 was low. The doc said all I can really do is run Nolvadex for awhile (40mg then 20mg then 10mg) and hope it helps. He thinks it may have been caused by fluxing levels of other hormones (IGF-1 and progesterone). Just talked to him today and he said maybe when I go on test we will cut out HCG for awile and see if that is the culprit.

91

Just an update;

It is day 6 after my 100mg shot. I gotta say I still feel pretty good. I do have this “intuition” or whatever that my body would like me to inject today, rather than waiting until tomorrow which is when I am “supposed” to. But I am going to wait. I want to try this frequency for the rest of the month to see if it still works for me. I am preparing myself mentally though to increase frequency next month if need be. Or probably would be a good “experiment” to try it and see how it works, even if once weekly seems good enough.

I am getting unsolicited comments along the lines of “you look more solid.” I am busting my butt on a new lifting program. It is way more challenging then anything I have done for a year. It is amazing to me that I am able to handle it. I am pretty sure I need to start eating more – now I just have to figure out how. I think I mentioned that I am carrying about 20 or 30lbs of fat on my frame. As my test was going lower and lower these last two years I got softer and softer.

Am looking at “natural” ways to supress estrogen. Right now, getting all soy out of my diet. Not sure how it got in my diet to begin with (Lesson 1 in life, read the damn ingredients label).

92

Interesting, another guy having estradoil issues from possible hCG use.

There really isn’t a whole lot of data on hCG use. Its extremely invaluable and an essential in HRT programs, but I would exercise caution doing so without an anti estrogen.

[quote]keaster wrote:
KSman wrote:
bobbyt wrote:
Hey guys-

I’m 47yrs.old and have been on HRT for approximately 18 months (200 mg. test cyp./week). My MD is clueless on HRT although he was willing to initiate the process. I have a question regarding HCG. If I were to add HCG to the equation, what physiological/psychological benefits might I expect? In addition, is there anything else I might want to include in my HRT weekly “cocktail”? Thanks in advance for your help.

Adding HCG will keep your testes working. After 18 months on 200mg test cyp/wk they should be shrunk and perhaps have been or are sore now. They may not come back well after all of this time. Many report an improvement in mood.

That dose is about twice what is normal. The higher dose may be leading to more estrogen. E is bad for your sex drive and prostate. If you get nocturnal wood but no morning wood, that is a sign that E is interfering with libido. If you are getting and breast tissue development or sensitivity, you need anti-E drugs. You would need a strong dose to get rid of gyno and a weaker maintenance dose after that.

I agree, your MD is clueless. Please post your blood work results for total test, free test and estrogen. You should have had a PSA test before you started and a DRE. Those should be repeated every year.

I got some gyno/ swelling form HCG. However my E2 was low. The doc said all I can really do is run Nolvadex for awhile (40mg then 20mg then 10mg) and hope it helps. He thinks it may have been caused by fluxing levels of other hormones (IGF-1 and progesterone). Just talked to him today and he said maybe when I go on test we will cut out HCG for awile and see if that is the culprit.[/quote]

93

Couple things you can do.

  1. Rez-V. Self explanatory.

  2. Vitex. Biotest used to sell it here but they discontinued it. You can pick it up online from other websites.

  3. Green vegetables, specifically brocolli. I dont remember the exact process on how it works but there is alot of documented evidence on this.

  4. Calcium D Glucarate. This also helps clear estrogen from the bloodstream. You can also pick this up online.

Right now Im heavy on #1, 3 and 4. Im going to be picking up Vitex soon.

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Just an update;

Am looking at “natural” ways to supress estrogen. Right now, getting all soy out of my diet. Not sure how it got in my diet to begin with (Lesson 1 in life, read the damn ingredients label).

[/quote]

94

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
Couple things you can do.

  1. Rez-V. Self explanatory.

  2. Vitex. Biotest used to sell it here but they discontinued it. You can pick it up online from other websites.

  3. Green vegetables, specifically brocolli. I dont remember the exact process on how it works but there is alot of documented evidence on this.

  4. Calcium D Glucarate. This also helps clear estrogen from the bloodstream. You can also pick this up online.

Right now Im heavy on #1, 3 and 4. Im going to be picking up Vitex soon.
[/quote]

Thanks for the tips – you made my life easy.

Well I’ve got a fridge full of Brocolli so I wonder how it is for breakfast? Damn I had forgotten about Rez-V.

I googled Vitex and came up w an herbal remedy for pre-menopausal women, some sites saying was also considered an aphrodiasiac for men. Is that the stuff you’re talking about? Here’s a link to info from an online vendor (They sell some Biotest stuff too, though not Rez-V)

ON EDIT – pretty interesting article in this weeks Newsweek on Resveratrol, which I beleive is the main ingredient of Rez-V:

QUOTING:

In early November, a research team (co-led by Sinclair) reported in the journal Nature the first study of resveratrol’s effects on the life span of a mammal. The study compared three groups of middle-aged mice on three different diets: (1) a standard diet; (2) a high-calorie, high-fat diet, and (3) a high-calorie, high-fat diet spiked with resveratrol. As expected, compared with the mice on a standard diet, the mice on the high-calorie, high-fat diet gained weight and developed fatty livers, inflammation in their heart muscle and a diabetes-like condition. And they died at a younger age. However, the mice on the high-calorie, high-fat diet that were also given resveratrol developed none of these complications: their physiology was that of a lean mouse. They were also more physically active, outperforming the untreated and overfed mice on tests of physical performance. Most striking, resveratrol reduced the risk of death by 30 percent.

Then, in mid-November, another research team reported in the journal Cell that mice treated with resveratrol were leaner and developed a greatly enhanced aerobic capacity; their muscles were like Lance Armstrong’s, consuming oxygen more efficiently and containing greater numbers of healthy mitochondria (and thus greater capacity to generate energy). Incredibly, the mice could run twice as far without getting tired, despite never having run on a treadmill before.] At least for mice, resveratrol is an outstanding performance-enhancing drug.

95

I now inject once every 2 weeks, and use Androgel daily during the last week. My wife won’t inject me and it does suck after a while to inject yourself all the time.

If you work for a large company or school, you can ask the school/company nurse to inject you. This also allows rotation of sites if you’re self-injecting.

Our nurse is cool and loves to play ‘Pin the Tail on the Teacher’! :wink:

96

So, I’m PATIENTLY waiting for my referal to a specialist but am currently getting 200 mg. injections of test.enanthate from my regular Doc.
Just got my 4th injection; 42 days in!
Things up here in western Canada seem to be really SLOW at best when it comes to getting doctors to think outside the old dusty med textbook.
My original free test score was 10.2 out of the accepted range of 25-98.
After my last blood level check about a week ago it’s up to 35. Still less than half of what they call acceptable.
All my symptoms are still here. There may be a very subtle improvement but nothing overly significant. If the referal takes longer than a month(!) than he says he’s going to jack my dosage to try and get it up more.
I just wanna feel better. Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired.
I’ll check back again later when hopefully I’m functioning better.

Cheers,
Kaleb.

97

Hahahah. Yea brocolli is nasty but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I cook mine light and throw on some melted chedder cheese. Makes it manageable.

As far as the Vitex goes, you have to get the right dosage. I believe it was 200 or 300mg? Thats a guess of the top of my head. Biotest used to sell a product called M that had the right dose for you…So your gonna need to do a little research on your own there. I I’ll dig it up when I get a chance sometime in the next few days and post it up.

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Thanks for the tips – you made my life easy.

Well I’ve got a fridge full of Brocolli so I wonder how it is for breakfast? Damn I had forgotten about Rez-V.

I googled Vitex and came up w an herbal remedy for pre-menopausal women, some sites saying was also considered an aphrodiasiac for men. Is that the stuff you’re talking about? Here’s a link to info from an online vendor (They sell some Biotest stuff too, though not Rez-V)

[/quote]

98

[quote]Kaleb wrote:
but am currently getting 200 mg. injections of test.enanthate from my regular Doc.
All my symptoms are still here. There may be a very subtle improvement but nothing overly significant. I just wanna feel better. Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired.[/quote]

Kaleb, so far switching to a shot of 100mg every week (rather than 200mg every two weeks) seems to have made a real good difference for me.

On the 200mg every two weeks I crashed and felt pretty bad about 4 or 5 days before the next shot. I really feel better now than then, even though this is only my second week of doing the every week shot. See if yr doc will try that with you for a while – I beleive he is requiring you to come to the office for injection. Any chance they will teach you to self inject?

(Note – KSman and others have done really well with even more frequent injections. . .which is probably something I will experiment w after I have a solid handle on how I feel for this every week thing)

99

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
As far as the Vitex goes, you have to get the right dosage. I believe it was 200 or 300mg? Thats a guess of the top of my head. Biotest used to sell a product called M that had the right dose for you…So your gonna need to do a little research on your own there. I I’ll dig it up when I get a chance sometime in the next few days and post it up.[/quote]

Hey – don’t worry about it – thru the magic of the internet wayback machine here’s the Biotest M formulation:

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size: 3 capsules
Servings Per Container: 20
Amount Per Serving
Vitex agnus-castus Extract (optimized phytochemical profile): 400mg
Calcium D-glucarate: 250mg
Tocotrienols: 50mg
3,5,4’-trihydroxystilbene: 10mg

Other Ingredients:
Cellulose, gelatin, magnesium stearate.

I will have to dig a little deeper to see what it all is. I have another Doc who has trained me to be real cautious about supplements. Won’t care if I supplement w broccoli though!

100

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Kaleb wrote:
Any chance they will teach you to self inject?

[/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1135091