Howard Dean

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Let’s just say it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there are many many unanswered questions that she will have to answer wrt The Rose Law Firm, insider commodities trades, and dead bodies.

You can choose to nitpick over the choice of words, but unless you are either a diehard left-wing partisan, or an idiot - it is fairly obvious who is bringing the most baggage into the election.

Regardless if YOU see these as being issues or not - they will be issues, and probably before the primaries are done with.[/quote]

I won’t deny she has baggage. I do deny how you think the public will take that. An ex-bodybuilding public marijuana smoker is now the governor of Cali. Most people accept that Clinton smoked and did inhale and many accept that W. Bush has had a drug and alcohol problem. I don’t think anyone, especially the younger generation, gives a damn about someone being crystal clean anymore. Since you already know all about her closets and what is in them, that gives HER the advantage by having more than enough to figure out how to deal with it publically. I understand that you simply don’t want a democrat to win. However, I would hope your ability to see trends in public perception hasn’t been blurred because of it. People want “real”. Every woman in this country who has had their man cheat on them is going to see her as an example, not a poorer choice. I could be wrong…or I could be absolutely right. No one is worried about “perfection” in the voting booth. It is all about spin and campaigning. Give her a decent catchy one liner that applies to the opposition, show her how to smile publicly and there won’t be much else to say. You can only sling the same dirt so many times.

142

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I won’t deny she has baggage. I do deny how you think the public will take that. An ex-bodybuilding public marijuana smoker is now the governor of Cali. Most people accept that Clinton smoked and did inhale and many accept that W. Bush has had a drug and alcohol problem. I don’t think anyone, especially the younger generation, gives a damn about someone being crystal clean anymore. Since you already know all about her closets and what is in them, that gives HER the advantage by having more than enough to figure out how to deal with it publically. I understand that you simply don’t want a democrat to win. However, I would hope your ability to see trends in public perception hasn’t been blurred because of it. People want “real”. Every woman in this country who has had their man cheat on them is going to see her as an example, not a poorer choice. I could be wrong…or I could be absolutely right. No one is worried about “perfection” in the voting booth. It is all about spin and campaigning. Give her a decent catchy one liner that applies to the opposition, show her how to smile publicly and there won’t be much else to say. You can only sling the same dirt so many times.[/quote]

You left out message. Like I said earlier - if you think that the Republicans won because of a catchy phrase - you couldn’t be more wrong. The left is dying a slow raspy-breathed death.

81% of all precints voted Bush. The Dems in the Senate will lose even more seats in '06, as well as the House. And you think it’s about catchy campaign slogans?

Anyhow - there’s no guarantee that Cankles can even make it out of the primaries. I mentioned the free pass that Clinton got because of his looks/charm/whatever. Arnold got a pass based on his fame/charisma/looks. Hilary has none of that. She will be treated much differently - she is plain-looking woman and certainly leaves much to be desired in the charisma department.

I think she will be cannibalized (sp) in the primaries and more than likely won’t make it to the Convention.

143

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You left out message. Like I said earlier - if you think that the Republicans won because of a catchy phrase - you couldn’t be more wrong. The left is dying a slow raspy-breathed death. [/quote]

You clearly give the average voter much more credit than I do. I remember hearing people call into politically based shows on tv and hearing callers go on and on about flip flopping yet not even knowing what issue Kerry flipped or flopped on. They simply heard the phrase and ran with it. The average voter is more than likely not college educated and they believe whatever the nightly news tells them…or their preacher. The spreaded belief that Kerry hated veterans was also lapped up by the segment of the population. Spin and fear won this last election.

[quote]
81% of all precints voted Bush. The Dems in the Senate will lose even more seats in '06, as well as the House. And you think it’s about catchy campaign slogans? [/quote]

I sure as hell do. For the average low income family, those catch prhrases make all of the difference in the world…aside from social characteristics and the unheard of religious turn out of this last election. There were documentaries of church buses in the south getting loaded up with church members to go vote. I haven’t seen that many elections in my life time but I would say that was a first if there ever was one.

[quote]
Anyhow - there’s no guarantee that Cankles can even make it out of the primaries. I mentioned the free pass that Clinton got because of his looks/charm/whatever. Arnold got a pass based on his fame/charisma/looks. Hilary has none of that. She will be treated much differently - she is plain-looking woman and certainly leaves much to be desired in the charisma department. [/quote]

…which means every Oprah-loving housewife will attach to her.

[quote]
I think she will be cannibalized (sp) in the primaries and more than likely won’t make it to the Convention. [/quote]

From what I have seen from her past, I would think it to be a huge mistake to count her out on much of anything.

144

I think it’s ironic that you think that preachers are telling their congregations how to vote. Especially Republicans.

Kerry appeared at, and spoke in more churches than Bush did.

The left has always tried to corner the poor black church market. They do it every election cycle.

The majority of people may not have college educations, but that is a far cry from calling them mindless and simple. The smartest man I ever knew never made it past the 8th grade.

I think your assumptions of the average American is the same assumption that the Dems have been making for 11 years. I can only hope that these elitist views of Joe Schmoe continue, as he will continue to vote Republican.

145

[quote]Professor X wrote:
People want “real”. Every woman in this country who has had their man cheat on them is going to see her as an example, not a poorer choice. I could be wrong…or I could be absolutely right…[/quote]

So…she let him lie over and over, and use her and their daughter to remake his image and most women are going to think she’s cool for sticking with him?
Don’t know where you get your women, PX, but all the women I know–even the ones who loved Bill think she’s pathetic.
Like you say though, we’ll see.

146

“You clearly give the average voter much more credit than I do. I remember hearing people call into politically based shows on tv and hearing callers go on and on about flip flopping yet not even knowing what issue Kerry flipped or flopped on. They simply heard the phrase and ran with it. The average voter is more than likely not college educated and they believe whatever the nightly news tells them…or their preacher. The spreaded belief that Kerry hated veterans was also lapped up by the segment of the population. Spin and fear won this last election.”

Elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

That aside, I see… The Republicans were fear mongers. Like: Pushing grandma down the stairs with Republican social security, the jackboots of Bush’s SS, Bush will inaugurate the end of the world, Bush lied millions of babies babies will die, guns don’t kill people Bush’s lies kill people, Bush was a draft dodger who will freely spend your kids’ lives, Bush flew al qaeda out of the country on Sept. 11, Bush didn’t care enough to answer the secret service on 9-11 and kept reading his book, Bush concocted the war as soon as he was elected to get money, Bush simply attacked Iraq because hard-liners feel the US needs a war for conservatives to retain power, a mysterious cabal of bastards who see democracy and freedom and the attached increase in standard of living (neo-cons) as the best way to combat terrorism and tyrrany formulated the war to test their theories, the democrats actually tried to pass a bill REINSTATING THE DRAFT to prove that… uh… George Bush was going to reinstate the draft…

Anyways, it’s easier to spout garbage like the quote above than to admit that the messages of both sides were painted in neon letters ten feet high, for two years leading up to the election, to the point that those of us that follow politics could literally watch the news with the mute button on and tell other people what each politician was saying. There were as many ignoramuses that voted against Bush because he was “stupid” as there were that were angry at Kerry for bad procedural votes.

“I sure as hell do. For the average low income family, those catch prhrases make all of the difference in the world…aside from social characteristics and the unheard of religious turn out of this last election. There were documentaries of church buses in the south getting loaded up with church members to go vote. I haven’t seen that many elections in my life time but I would say that was a first if there ever was one.”

There’s the danger of inserting opinion for fact – instead of a know-it-all you look like a know-nothing.

Busing happens every election. All kinds of people in both rural and urban areas run busing services. Where I live, both parties hired buses, there were churches, service organizations, the usual number of union buses and vans, and of course politicians running for office had transport services available.

The only thing different this year was that the county Republican party headquarters was trashed and the tires of their vans for getting voters out was sliced. This was after about two weeks of union intimidation of Republican party workers to the point where the building needed full-time police protection because workers were being physically assaulted by the union workers.

Oh, that’s right, it was the poor stupid democratic voters that were being bullied into voting for more Republican state senators (again), more Republican state representatives (again), more Republican US representatives (again), more Republican governors (again), more Republican senators (again), and a President that has trouble getting out complete sentences (again). The only demographic that actually increased for the democrats were dead people, and considering how many dead people voted dem in Philadelphia and Detroit in the last election, that’s no small achievement!

Could it have been that your platform and message (WE’RE NOT GEORGE W. BUSH, W IS HITLER, THE PATRIOT ACT WILL LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR THE SS, BUSH LIED TRILLIONS DIED, HALLIBURTON IS IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING, DICK CHENEY IS AN ALIEN PUPPETMASTER, NO WAR FOR OIL, WE PREFER fRANCE AND sADDAM TO BUSH, RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE STUPID) wasn’t all that appealing?

NO WAY! Hollywood, academia, the big three news networks, the largest newspapers, the bulk of the news magazines, and the populations containing most of the world’s greatest advertising minds (NYC, LA) simply couldn’t come up with the right slogans to woo the yokels!

147

Oh I think Hillary will get the nomination…after tearing the party apart from the inside out! She will then get crushed by the the GOP nominee.

Yea…that’s the likely scenario at this point in time.

148

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think it’s ironic that you think that preachers are telling their congregations how to vote. Especially Republicans.

Kerry appeared at, and spoke in more churches than Bush did.

The left has always tried to corner the poor black church market. They do it every election cycle.

The majority of people may not have college educations, but that is a far cry from calling them mindless and simple. The smartest man I ever knew never made it past the 8th grade.

I think your assumptions of the average American is the same assumption that the Dems have been making for 11 years. I can only hope that these elitist views of Joe Schmoe continue, as he will continue to vote Republican. [/quote]

I never called them mindless and simple. Those were your words. I said that the average American is prone to latching on to catch phrases without looking deeper into issues. That is difference between reading what I wrote, and assuming what I meant. It would help if you quoted me instead of the bullshit you keep pulling. It would keep you from making that mistake.

As far as someone stating that this was simple busing as a form of transportation, there were buses traveling around to churches that had posters and computers set up inside showing how voting for Bush was voting for the more Christian and Godly candidate. That is not busing. The congregation goes outside and gets treated to a tour of the bus where they learn how voting for Kerry would have been the un-Godly choice. I have never seen that done with regards to democrats going to churches for support. This was on MSNBC so some of you may not have caught it.

149

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
People want “real”. Every woman in this country who has had their man cheat on them is going to see her as an example, not a poorer choice. I could be wrong…or I could be absolutely right…

So…she let him lie over and over, and use her and their daughter to remake his image and most women are going to think she’s cool for sticking with him?
Don’t know where you get your women, PX, but all the women I know–even the ones who loved Bill think she’s pathetic.
Like you say though, we’ll see.
[/quote]

You act as if I have stated that I am voting for Hillary Clinton. I haven’t stated anything like that. My comment was directed at a comment by Rainjack as if she has too many skeletons in her closet. With that thinking, I can only assume that you think anyone who might run against her is crystal clean as far as image. As stated, regardless of who the public latches onto, I doubt the majority is looking for unnaturally clean closets when it comes to their choice in the voter’s booth.

They will vote for who they relate to. Considering this is politics and the spin, mud-slinging and fear promotion are all a part of the game, I think you all are counting people out long before you should.

150

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I never called them mindless and simple. Those were your words. I said that the average American is prone to latching on to catch phrases without looking deeper into issues. That is difference between reading what I wrote, and assuming what I meant. It would help if you quoted me instead of the bullshit you keep pulling. It would keep you from making that mistake.
[/quote]

Tomato/Tomahto. I re-read it. Dumb, mindless, an uneducated is how I interpret what you said. It’s the same elitist mentality that the Dems have had for eleven years. You have it down pat. I assumed nothing.

It looks like you are pulling your old bullshit - if anyones “pulling bullshit”. You don’t like how someone interprets your post - attack them.

151

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You act as if I have stated that I am voting for Hillary Clinton. I haven’t stated anything like that. My comment was directed at a comment by Rainjack as if she has too many skeletons in her closet. [/quote]

not at all…that’s why I said “but as you’ve said, we’ll see”…I think you’re wrong about that sentence, but it doesn’t really matter.

152

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I never called them mindless and simple. Those were your words. I said that the average American is prone to latching on to catch phrases without looking deeper into issues. That is difference between reading what I wrote, and assuming what I meant. It would help if you quoted me instead of the bullshit you keep pulling. It would keep you from making that mistake.

Tomato/Tomahto. I re-read it. Dumb, mindless, an uneducated is how I interpret what you said. It’s the same elitist mentality that the Dems have had for eleven years. You have it down pat. I assumed nothing.

It looks like you are pulling your old bullshit - if anyones “pulling bullshit”. You don’t like how someone interprets your post - attack them.[/quote]

Or, you could read it as the majority of lower income households being single parent families have a parent who is working 2 jobs and whose only exposure to the deeper aspects of politics might come while eating dinner. Their view of politics would rely completely upon views flashed at them in lines of text at the bottom of the screen. If you think the average parent or voter in America is researching these topics like Boston Barrister you are deluded.

That has nothing to do with “elitism” and everything to do with knowledge of the truth. You try so hard to flip things. It hardly ever works for you. If you responded to what I write instead of simply making up shit so you can make my words appear darker than they are, you could avoid that. Again, that has nothing to do with thinking that the general public are morons. You wrote that and nothing I have written implies such.

153

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Or, you could read it as the majority of lower income households being single parent families have a parent who is working 2 jobs and whose only exposure to the deeper aspects of politics might come while eating dinner. Their view of politics would rely completely upon views flashed at them in lines of text at the bottom of the screen. If you think the average parent or voter in America is researching these topics like Boston Barrister you are deluded.[/quote]

I don’t think there are very many people on the face of the earth that researches any topic like BB. You are referencing lower income folks as if those are the one’s that won the election for Bush. They weren’t. It was middle America.

[quote]
That has nothing to do with “elitism” and everything to do with knowledge of the truth. You try so hard to flip things. It hardly ever works for you. If you responded to what I write instead of simply making up shit so you can make my words appear darker than they are, you could avoid that. Again, that has nothing to do with thinking that the general public are morons. You wrote that and nothing I have written implies such. [/quote]

It is elitism. You can deny it all you want. I could give a shit. If I am wrong - then clarify. But what I’m reading from you si exactly what I called it.

If you are believing that the election was won because the Republicans had a better catch phrase - I would submit that you are the one that has a problem accepting “truth” because there is no proof to back up your claim.

154

[quote]rainjack wrote:
It is elitism. You can deny it all you want. I could give a shit. If I am wrong - then clarify. But what I’m reading from you si exactly what I called it. [/quote]

Believing that the general public doesn’t deeply research topics is elitism? Could you explain that to me? You actually believe that the average American is on the computer searching the internet for political statements of who they are voting for?

Middle America was watching CNN and FOX news more than that housewives series, Fear Factor or Survivor? WTF? It is elitism to point that out? That makes no sense. You just admitted that no one is going to research this info like BB yet it is too hard to imagine that many will do even less research than the casual reader of this political forum who never interacts with the topics? Do you really believe that everyone is at home searching for Hillary info right now?

Many people on this board alone want the entire political forum done away with…yet you think everyone is so involved with the issues? That is bullshit and you know it. Ackowledging that is not “elitism”. No matter how many times you want to throw that word around, nothing about that meets that description.

I guess in your world, everyone is discussing politics right now. Wow.

By the way, if me stating that the general public doesn’t research political topics deeply is “elitism”, then you claiming that no one researches topics like BB is equally “elitist”. That is, if you follow your own BS logic.

[quote]
If you are believing that the election was won because the Republicans had a better catch phrase - I would submit that you are the one that has a problem accepting “truth” because there is no proof to back up your claim.[/quote]

I already wrote why I believe they won and I didn’t just mention catch phrases. If you took the time to actually quote my responses…like I just did with yours…you would quit making these errors.

155

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Middle America was watching CNN and FOX news more than that housewives series, Fear Factor or Survivor? WTF? It is elitism to point that out? That makes no sense. You just admitted that no one is going to research this info like BB yet it is too hard to imagine that many will do even less research than the casual reader of this political forum who never interacts with the topics? Do you really believe that everyone is at home searching for Hillary info right now?[/quote]

Like you said several posts ago, and forgive of I don’t quote you verbatum, I have a higher opinion of the general voting public than you do. While I don’t think that the average joe pays as much attention to the issues as the regulars on this forum, I don’t think they are as lazy as you have characterized them. To make it more than a difference of opinion is just silly in my book.

I used words and phrases that have paraphrased what I believed to be your sentiments.

[quote]
Many people on this board alone want the entire political forum done away with…yet you think everyone is so involved with the issues? That is bullshit and you know it. Ackowledging that is not “elitism”. No matter how many times you want to throw that word around, nothing about that meets that description. [/quote]

When you qualify your original statement with the lack of education in the general public, it smacks of elitism. The educated v. the ignorant masses.

[quote]
I guess in your world, everyone is discussing politics right now. Wow.[/quote]

Now who is putting words in whose mouth, hmmmmm?

[quote]
By the way, if me stating that the general public doesn’t research political topics deeply is “elitism”, then you claiming that no one researches topics like BB is equally “elitist”. That is, if you follow your own BS logic.[/quote]

No - you using the lack of education as part of an excuse smacls of elitism. I was using BB as an extreme example of research. Not as a put down - that is just weak, prof.

[quote]
I already wrote why I believe they won and I didn’t just mention catch phrases. If you took the time to actually quote my responses…like I just did with yours…you would quit making these errors.[/quote]

I’ll make a deal with you right here and now - you stop picking and choosing what issues you want to address, and I will do the same.

156

[quote]rainjack wrote:
No - you using the lack of education as part of an excuse smacls of elitism. I was using BB as an extreme example of research. Not as a put down - that is just weak, prof.
[/quote]

Nonsense. You all claim that being politically correct is ruining the country, yet when someone makes an honest assessment of a situation, you all want to cry foul. Hypocrites. Someone with less education will no doubt be less likely to follow the deeper issues.

Are you saying this is not the case in majority? That those without higher educations are just as likely to dig as deep as BB or even you and me on these issues? I want to hear you say the words that you believe education has NOTHING to do with how someone processes the information that is out there.

You all see everyday through ephedra bans and the public nonsense of steroid stigma that the general public researches these “hot” topic very little. For you or anyone else to pretend as if education plays no role at all is ridiculous.

To go even further and claim I am being “elitist” by pointing that out not only makes you a hypocrite on the issue of political correctness, but it implies that you will do anything to twist the words I write into something much darker than ever intended.

[quote]
I’ll make a deal with you right here and now - you stop picking and choosing what issues you want to address, and I will do the same.[/quote]

What issues did I pick and choose? You respond to me, I respond back to each important point you try to make. How is that picking and choosing?

157

Everyone here crying elitism are fucking hypocrites. T-Nation is bar none the most elitist site I frequent on the internet. The world is full of idiots for eating the poison they eat. The world is full of idiots who don’t know how to train. Everyone’s a pussy except for “T-men/women”. Cars that aren’t from America are pussy cars. Blah blah blah…

Can one of the conservatives here tell me again how you’re so much better than all the stupid liberals on this board because liberals have no common sense, are feminine, can’t think logically, hate America, drink lattes, have no moral values, always want a handout and (worst of all!) think they’re better then you? Oh, I left out the fact that they have no reading comprehension skills, those elitist bastards!

I swear to god sometimes this forum is like watching chimps throw shit at each other. That is the beauty of it though, I suppose.

158

So apparently the average person researches political issues and makes well informed decisions with a deep understanding of the issue at hand. To state otherwise is elitist. The only exceptions being those people that don’t agree with your stance on the issues:

OK, let me make sure I got it all straight. People that agree with you are informed. People that disagree don’t understand the issues. You’re better/smarter/stronger than the elitists. Got it.

159

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Nonsense. You all claim that being politically correct is ruining the country, yet when someone makes an honest assessment of a situation, you all want to cry foul. Hypocrites. Someone with less education will no doubt be less likely to follow the deeper issues.[/quote]

I’ve read this like 5 times. I still don’t know what this has to do with anything. You make no sense. When in this discussion have I even used PC as an excuse for anything? And you get on my ass for picking out one issue wrt what you posted?

You are just making shit up - and using a blanket statement Like YOU ALL. Don’t you ever get on my ass about misquoting you - you’re just fucking lying right now - And the worst part is - You don’t even make any sense.

[quote]
Are you saying this is not the case in majority? That those without higher educations are just as likely to dig as deep as BB or even you and me on these issues? I want to hear you say the words that you believe education has NOTHING to do with how someone processes the information that is out there.[/quote]

How damn dense can you be? You are making this about extremes - and I have told you at least once before It’s not. You are once agaion making shit up and trying to convince yourself that I said it. You are wrong once again. But I doubt a little thing like the truth will stop you from making up a totally bogus argument for me. Terribly weak. Typical ProfX bully tactic, but weak.

[quote]
You all see everyday through ephedra bans and the public nonsense of steroid stigma that the general public researches these “hot” topic very little. For you or anyone else to pretend as if education plays no role at all is ridiculous.[/quote]

Please quote me where I, or anyone else, said education plays no role. The only thing that is ridiculous is the fact that you are lying and trying to build an argument out of shit you just made up.

[quote]
To go even further and claim I am being “elitist” by pointing that out not only makes you a hypocrite on the issue of political correctness, but it implies that you will do anything to twist the words I write into something much darker than ever intended.[/quote]

You might want to take the log out of your own eye first, before you go around judging me.

Prof - you are elitist. There’s nothing more I can say. I’d really like to know how your elitism makes ME a hypocrite. You’ve made up a lot of shit - but I want to see how you twist this lie into an argument.

[quote]
What issues did I pick and choose? You respond to me, I respond back to each important point you try to make. How is that picking and choosing?[/quote]

I think as this post indicates - you zeroed in on your elitism, leaving everything else I’ve said laying on the side of the road. In fact - you are making shit up about what I said wrt education. The difference is you are fabreicating my argument as you go along.

160

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
So apparently the average person researches political issues and makes well informed decisions with a deep understanding of the issue at hand. To state otherwise is elitist. The only exceptions being those people that don’t agree with your stance on the issues:

Rainjack wrote:
Embryonic stem-cell research has been co-opted by the pro-abortion crowd to the point that no one understands just how low on the totem-pole it is.

OK, let me make sure I got it all straight. People that agree with you are informed. People that disagree don’t understand the issues. You’re better/smarter/stronger than the elitists. Got it.[/quote]

Other than the fact that you just perfectly described professorX, and took a quote of mine completely out of context at the same time - I don’t have a clue what your drunk ass was even trying to say.

What’s going to be really sad is if you weren’t drunk - and you were actually trying to make a point. But you do spell pretty good for a drunk-ass.