The difference between a NY Democrat and Southern Democrat are so striking it almost seems that they are not the same party.
Fortunately the Dems don’t get it and Dean is like a big wedge driving them further apart.
[quote]holifila wrote:
100meters wrote:
Dean’s expertise is fundraising, and he’s doubling the rate of 2003. (Double= better) in what 100 days? And you seem mildly confused as to who the anti party is. Rethugs=anti. Against oh S.S, progressive taxes, against individual rights, against fiscal responsibility, against middle and lower classes, against the constitution, american values. Voting for people that don’t think they should be helping you really makes no sense.
Wow, I guess you really put me in my place. I mean rethugs, thats just an argument that I can’t compete with. Oh and listing off a bunch of crap that the repubs are against that makes no sense what so ever. I will agree with you that they are against progressive taxes but I’m a little unclear as to how you think they are against everything else that you said. I suppose that I could take each one on a case by case basis but what would be the point? There is no point in addressing inane talking points endorsed by moveon.org. Maybe if the liberals in this country actually woke up to the fact that gross hyperbole concerning the republicans/conservatives is the main reason that they are losing ground. If the Dems had clue one Dean would be gone and someone who actually can play nice in the red states would be in. But then again, the Dems had 2 or 3 presidential nominees that probably could have beat Bush in the swing states but instead decided to prop up a New England lib and when he went down they went to another. There are plenty of Dems that can appeal to the reds, hell I live in one of the more conservative districts in freakin Texas and our rep is a dem who I voted for ( even though Bush won something like 70%). [/quote]
Why appeal to reds when you could just appeal to everybody’s liberal values, seems that would be easier…And I think thats what Dean’s trying to do. Look when Hillary Clinton is more popular than the president (NOW!)why appeal to the GOP 30% core? Poll after poll after poll after poll show americans by wide majorities agree with liberals on the vast majority at issues. Why do dems lose. They suck at campaigning. They suck at staying on message. They tell you everything they know instead of just giving you the catch phrase, like “fighting terror” and shit like that. Dems have to get better at the campaigning, till then they’ll keep losing. Dean is trying to do that, condense the message, repeat the message, get other dems to do the same.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Why do dems lose. They suck at campaigning. They suck at staying on message. They tell you everything they know instead of just giving you the catch phrase, like “fighting terror” and shit like that. [/quote]
I agree with that. This past election was nearly won on the use of the term “flip flop”…even though many of the people using it couldn’t name one issue Kerry flipped or flopped on. Appealing to the average voter means, simply, dumbing down the message and making it catchy. Democrats need someone who speaks “pop”. Well, that and great cool ways to work fear into the message.
Polls mean dick when you ignore them and assume that you know what is best for the dems. They consisntently (since 1994) ignore the middle and pander to the far left. Look at the last two presidential candidates. Extreme left-wing democrats will never win the South. And you can’t live in the Whitehouse if you don’t carry the South.
Look at the migration of the South to the republican party. It went from 20-6 in favor of the dems to 22-4 Republican now. It’s not a message issue. The dems have alienated an entire wing of their party that have found a home on the right.
Al Gore couldn’t even win his home state. Nor could Edwards. As a previous poster alluded to - the difference between the Southern Dems and the dems that the left panders to is something that Dean should pay attention to.
I’m not a big fan of Carville - but he’s right wrt the plight of the dems if they don’t start listening to someone besides the fringe left.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Why appeal to reds when you could just appeal to everybody’s liberal values, seems that would be easier…And I think thats what Dean’s trying to do. Look when Hillary Clinton is more popular than the president (NOW!)why appeal to the GOP 30% core? Poll after poll after poll after poll show americans by wide majorities agree with liberals on the vast majority at issues. Why do dems lose. They suck at campaigning. They suck at staying on message. They tell you everything they know instead of just giving you the catch phrase, like “fighting terror” and shit like that. Dems have to get better at the campaigning, till then they’ll keep losing. Dean is trying to do that, condense the message, repeat the message, get other dems to do the same.[/quote]
It is certainly more than campaigning problems. Also, quoting such polls are dicey at best, they tend to ask loaded questions. The more Dem poll asks “Do you think the gov. should help the poor” and the repub poll asks “Do you think your taxes should pay for people able to work but who don’t”. It is all a farce.
Most of this country are in a steady middle ground on issues overall, they might side with the dems for one thing and go with the repubs on another. I believe that the dems are currently losing ground and it is due to the all or nothing attitude. Most criticized Bush when he gave his “with us or against us” (though I can’t remember what the exact quote is) but the dems have commited to this approach themselves. Think that private accounts might be worth a look?..get the hell out, you want to hurt old people. Think that taxes are too high? You want to hurt the poor. And the grandaddy of them all, think that abortion is wrong? You must hate women. I believe Dean typifies this attitude (and so do many of us in the south, most of the non-extreme libs around here don’t really like him). Myself, I agree with many liberal ideals (and many conservative, not everything is mutually exclusive) but I normally vote Repub because I feel strongly about abortion and there is little or no room left in the dem party for me. But notice that there are a number of prominent pro-choice repubs. There seems to be little variety in the party and I think Dean is exactly the right man to keep it that way.
As for the Hillary poll, every year polls come out about how so and so has better numbers than the current pres, hell I remember Gingrich had would beat Clinton (Bill that is) but you have to wait for an actual campaign before most people start to think seriously about candidates. I just don’t buy this poll.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I agree with that. This past election was nearly won on the use of the term “flip flop”…even though many of the people using it couldn’t name one issue Kerry flipped or flopped on. Appealing to the average voter means, simply, dumbing down the message and making it catchy. Democrats need someone who speaks “pop”. Well, that and great cool ways to work fear into the message.[/quote]
I find it impossible to believe that half of the voters in the United States can only be reached with a dumbed down message. I find it even harder to believe that 55% of the United States (based on Senate spread) used fear to win.
Dead Floridians couldn’t even pull it out for the dems. Republicans have a message. Republicans have a direction. Republicans are doing something besides obstructing. and the most important thing - Republicans are winning elections.
But go ahead and think it’s because the left can’t campaign.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’m not a big fan of Carville - but he’s right wrt the plight of the dems if they don’t start listening to someone besides the fringe left.[/quote]
I don’t agree with Carville most of the time but I like him a lot more after I read Tucker Carlson’s book, there is a hilarious story about Carville in there.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Polls mean dick when you ignore them and assume that you know what is best for the dems. They consisntently (since 1994) ignore the middle and pander to the far left. Look at the last two presidential candidates. Extreme left-wing democrats will never win the South. And you can’t live in the Whitehouse if you don’t carry the South.
Look at the migration of the South to the republican party. It went from 20-6 in favor of the dems to 22-4 Republican now. It’s not a message issue. The dems have alienated an entire wing of their party that have found a home on the right.
Al Gore couldn’t even win his home state. Nor could Edwards. As a previous poster alluded to - the difference between the Southern Dems and the dems that the left panders to is something that Dean should pay attention to.
I’m not a big fan of Carville - but he’s right wrt the plight of the dems if they don’t start listening to someone besides the fringe left.[/quote]
The american public is the “fringe left”. There is no need to pander, going center why? We are the center! WE DON’T LOSE ON ISSUES! We lose because the public (surprise) likes someone who looks strong (and wrong) over someone who looks weak(and right) If you think that other than the “core” , people are voting for the GOP platform then you might be JeffR! The GOP don’t have public majority support for any issue—so why in the hell would you reach in that direction? It’s the campaign, the delivery, the massive unity of message that wins it for repubs. This is where dems are just god-awful pathetic measly wannabes. Fix that, win an election, get universal healthcare, and this country is DEM for a long time, and every rethug knows it.
[quote]100meters wrote:
The american public is the “fringe left”. There is no need to pander, going center why? We are the center! WE DON’T LOSE ON ISSUES! We lose because the public (surprise) likes someone who looks strong (and wrong) over someone who looks weak(and right) If you think that other than the “core” , people are voting for the GOP platform then you might be JeffR! The GOP don’t have public majority support for any issue—so why in the hell would you reach in that direction? It’s the campaign, the delivery, the massive unity of message that wins it for repubs. This is where dems are just god-awful pathetic measly wannabes. Fix that, win an election, get universal healthcare, and this country is DEM for a long time, and every rethug knows it.[/quote]
Please keep thinking that. Please keep waving polls around showing how you really won - even though you lost. You are doing the same thing that the Dem leadership is doing. And they keep losing. They’ll lose even more seats next November.
You can call it whatever you want. Wave all the polls you want. But you lost. Two presidential elections in a row, and seats in Congress since 1994.
I think it’s quite funny that you are this out of touch with reality. Come to think of it - you mirror the Dem leaderships attitude pretty closely.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Fix that, win an election, get universal healthcare, and this country is DEM for a long time, and every rethug knows it.[/quote]
Yeah, for about 5 to 10 years until everybody realizes that universal healthcare is another word for raising taxes exponentialy and lowering quality. I personally have seen a few good ideas for helping healthcare but having the gov. take it over is not the solution.
[quote]100meters wrote:
The american public is the “fringe left”. There is no need to pander, going center why? We are the center! WE DON’T LOSE ON ISSUES! We lose because the public (surprise) likes someone who looks strong (and wrong) over someone who looks weak(and right) If you think that other than the “core” , people are voting for the GOP platform then you might be JeffR! The GOP don’t have public majority support for any issue—so why in the hell would you reach in that direction? It’s the campaign, the delivery, the massive unity of message that wins it for repubs. This is where dems are just god-awful pathetic measly wannabes. Fix that, win an election, get universal healthcare, and this country is DEM for a long time, and every rethug knows it.[/quote]
The GOP doesn’t have majority support on any issue? What would lead you to that conclusion? Could it be historical dominance of the GOP on a state and federal level?
If you lose the presidency, lose by an ever-widening margin in the Senate, lose bigger and bigger in the House of Representatives, lose the balance of governorships, and get absolutely wiped out in the state legislatures… Concurrent with a national party shift to the hard left on political issues (ie. foreign policy, taxes), and continue to claim that everyone agrees with you on the issues but you’re just not “scary” enough, you will continue to lose.
It’s like adding a new ingredient that make your beer taste like shit, and then saying you are getting cleaned out by Budweiser because they have better TV commercials. (Or my favorite left line, that more than half of the public is blind or stupid or can’t tell substance from smoke). The bottom line doesn’t lie.
bill clinton could tell you how to win… just look at the poltical makeover that hillary is putting up, all the changing positions to make a run at national office. Why, pray tell, would she do that if her hard-left viewpoints would be great and everyone would love them in places like Nebraska and Indiana and Ohio?
If losing control of almost all of the government isn’t a good sign that some serious re-evaluation is needed, what would be good evidence in your book? If everybody agrees with you but nobody votes for you, then who cares?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
100meters wrote:
The american public is the “fringe left”. There is no need to pander, going center why? We are the center! WE DON’T LOSE ON ISSUES! We lose because the public (surprise) likes someone who looks strong (and wrong) over someone who looks weak(and right) If you think that other than the “core” , people are voting for the GOP platform then you might be JeffR! The GOP don’t have public majority support for any issue—so why in the hell would you reach in that direction? It’s the campaign, the delivery, the massive unity of message that wins it for repubs. This is where dems are just god-awful pathetic measly wannabes. Fix that, win an election, get universal healthcare, and this country is DEM for a long time, and every rethug knows it.
Please keep thinking that. Please keep waving polls around showing how you really won - even though you lost. You are doing the same thing that the Dem leadership is doing. And they keep losing. They’ll lose even more seats next November.
You can call it whatever you want. Wave all the polls you want. But you lost. Two presidential elections in a row, and seats in Congress since 1994.
I think it’s quite funny that you are this out of touch with reality. Come to think of it - you mirror the Dem leaderships attitude pretty closely.[/quote]
GOOD! You stick with the fringe- that scares the majority of americans, I’ll stick with america.
Why is she fake pandering to the
“center”? Good campaigning—MY WHOLE POINT! Thank you.And every dem is starting to parrot those points—just like good rethugs–result hillary’s so out of touch that she’s in touch with more people than the president. And that’s hillary!
[quote]100meters wrote:
Why is she fake pandering to the
“center”? Good campaigning—MY WHOLE POINT! Thank you.And every dem is starting to parrot those points—just like good rethugs–result hillary’s so out of touch that she’s in touch with more people than the president. And that’s hillary![/quote]
You really believe that, don’t you? Hillary will have a hard time making it out of the primaries.
She’ll actually have to answer questions when she runs - that should scare even the most partisan democrat to death. Plus Dean and Cankles hate each other. Money might be hard to come by for the Junior Senator.
[quote]holifila wrote:
100meters wrote:
Fix that, win an election, get universal healthcare, and this country is DEM for a long time, and every rethug knows it.
Yeah, for about 5 to 10 years until everybody realizes that universal healthcare is another word for raising taxes exponentialy and lowering quality. I personally have seen a few good ideas for helping healthcare but having the gov. take it over is not the solution. [/quote]
If you think that quality of health care is not already suffering due to insurance stipulations on what a doctor can use in certain treatments, then you haven’t been paying attention. Our current system is the reason for the term “Mc Donald’s Health Care”. Take away the power from insurance agencies and you increase the standard of care.
This is probably a good point to say again why Dean is a good guy for the DNC. He’s familiar with this big issue. Health care is going to be a solidifier for the middle lefts.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
100meters wrote:
Why is she fake pandering to the
“center”? Good campaigning—MY WHOLE POINT! Thank you.And every dem is starting to parrot those points—just like good rethugs–result hillary’s so out of touch that she’s in touch with more people than the president. And that’s hillary!
You really believe that, don’t you? Hillary will have a hard time making it out of the primaries.
She’ll actually have to answer questions when she runs - that should scare even the most partisan democrat to death. Plus Dean and Cankles hate each other. Money might be hard to come by for the Junior Senator.[/quote]
Others to answer questions:
Frist! cat killer kook lookout!
Santorum! eek!
McCain! You were tortured in vietnam right? Yes. How could you vote for the Gonzalez nomination? I’m a stooge for the base.
Guiliani! For Individual Rights? bye-bye.
Jeb! Why do you think the gov. should decide family matters? See ya’!
What does it matter how cankles and dean feel about each other, You think Bush likes I don’t know if I’m gay or not Ken Mehlman? And if Hillary runs…
There
will
be
huge
money.(for a dem that is)
[quote]100meters wrote:
Others to answer questions:
Frist! cat killer kook lookout!
Santorum! eek!
McCain! You were tortured in vietnam right? Yes. How could you vote for the Gonzalez nomination? I’m a stooge for the base.
Guiliani! For Individual Rights? bye-bye.
Jeb! Why do you think the gov. should decide family matters? See ya’!
What does it matter how cankles and dean feel about each other, You think Bush likes I don’t know if I’m gay or not Ken Mehlman? And if Hillary runs…
There
will
be
huge
money.(for a dem that is)[/quote]
Hillary has more skeletons in her closet (literally) than all other candidates from both parties, combined.
I think the riff between Dean and the old Clinton machine is deeper than you think. Should she win the nomination, money will fall from the sky - but getting the nomination will be the hard part. Rumor has it she’s already started flying Iowans in to D.C. for dinners.
Santorum will have the Bill Clinton pass. He’s really, really good looking - and not that much dirt.
Watch for Newt - the scariest man in the universe to libs inside the Beltway.
Newt v. Cankles - I’d buy tickets to that fight.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Hillary has more skeletons in her closet (literally) than all other candidates from both parties, combined.
[/quote]
How do you know this? If they are in the closet, how is it you know all about them?
Let’s just say it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there are many many unanswered questions that she will have to answer wrt The Rose Law Firm, insider commodities trades, and dead bodies.
You can choose to nitpick over the choice of words, but unless you are either a diehard left-wing partisan, or an idiot - it is fairly obvious who is bringing the most baggage into the election.
Regardless if YOU see these as being issues or not - they will be issues, and probably before the primaries are done with.