How To Make a Terrorist

[quote]btm62 wrote:
I didn’t think my reply was that lengthy. Your scatological reference certainly speaks to how clever you really are. Your right however, I do feel a little bad about having nothing to offer this thread, other than to jump in and give you a little taste of what its like to try have an intelligent discussion with you on the forum. I would imagine that if you flushed yourself along with your decent shit, we wouldn’t know the difference. Try a woman. Much better than a catalog and easier on the wrists.
[/quote]

Dude, you are lame. Your comebacks are lame. You have offered no point of view at all in this thread yet you keep posting responses. Please go play in another forum or possibly another web site.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
there is no room for tolerating terrorism.[/quote]

Who in this thread said anything about tolerating terrorists?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Who in this thread said anything about tolerating terrorists?[/quote]

Well golly, ProX, did you read the article that was linked in the first post? The author all but says that we should suck Osama’s cock in order to “stop terrorism from spreading”. He calls for capitulation to Al Qaeda; withdrawal of our forces from SA, an end to bombing of insurgent targets, etc.

Here’s a snippet I like:
"On the day of the disaster, President George W. Bush told the American people that we were attacked because we are “a beacon for freedom” and because the attackers were “evil.” In his address to Congress on September 20, he said, “This is civilization’s fight.”

This attempt to define difficult-to-grasp events as only a conflict over abstract values–as a “clash of civilizations,” in current post-cold war American jargon–is not only disingenuous but also a way of evading responsibility for the “blowback” that America’s imperial projects have generated."

This guy is saying that it is OUR fault that Osama trained, supported with money, intel, etc., those fucks that hijacked our planes and flew them into the Pentagon and WTC. Retarded.

If a guy held you up at gunpoint and demanded your wallet, would you blame him for it? Please tell me that you are not so much of a punk as to blame Bush’s economic policy and unemployment statistics for some dickhead deciding that it would be a good idea to rob you.

That’s what happened here, ProX. A crime was committed against our society. So we declared war against those who would seek to repeat the crime again. That means we hunt down and exterminate terrorists and those who support them. I’m sorry, but as much as I disagree with GWB on pretty much every other thing he stands for, his actions here in the WOT are pretty much common sense to me.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
That’s what happened here, ProX. A crime was committed against our society. So we declared war against those who would seek to repeat the crime again. That means we hunt down and exterminate terrorists and those who support them. I’m sorry, but as much as I disagree with GWB on pretty much every other thing he stands for, his actions here in the WOT are pretty much common sense to me.[/quote]

…and you are entitled to that opinion. I personally believe that we went in with no true plan in place. It seemed the plan was “blow the shit out of them, find Saddam, and then…well…uh…”. I doubt many Americans actually hold the opinion that nothing should have been done about Saddam.

The conflict is about how we went to war and what do we do after “war”…something that isn’t so hard to understand. It is also about what we do now that our actions have given many a new reason to turn towards terrorist activities. I would hope there is equal focus on the mentality that creates them instead of the belief that firing at them will one day get rid of them all.

My question is, why approach this as if there is no belief system in place that they hold? Why act as if we shouldn’t be attacking that system, finding out what fuels it and counteracting it? It seems that even approaching the idea of understanding what creates them is viewed as unpatriotic or irrelevant.

To those that hold that view, do you honestly think that we will “get rid of terrorists”? There are actually some who believe we are picking them off one by one and soon there will be no more? What is the countdown? There are 2,000 more to go? 1,000? A cool 500? Help me understand this line of thinking because from here, it seems pretty damn naive.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
My question is, why approach this as if there is no belief system in place that they hold? Why act as if we shouldn’t be attacking that system, finding out what fuels it and counteracting it? It seems that even approaching the idea of understanding what creates them is viewed as unpatriotic or irrelevant.[/quote]

Ah yes. But we ARE fighting that belief system of hate. Haven’t you noticed the newborn democracy (still a little wobbly, but it’s there right now) trying to figure itself out over in Iraq? We know what makes terrorists: tyranny, poverty, brainwashing in a population that feels powerless… these people are given a gun or an IED and told that their family will get a chance to escape from the hell of their existence. Lies. That is what makes a terrorist, ProX.

These citizens will get a taste of personal liberty. They will get tired of being targeted by suicide bombers for having the audacity for trying to escape the tyrannical grip of islamofascism.

Twenty years from now, I doubt that the free people of Iraq will hate us. I doubt that islamofascism will have a hold over them. And that won’t be Bush’s fault either. The credit will go to the citizens of Iraq for learning to let go of fear, xenophobia, and ignorance.

I have lived, studied and worked in four Mid-East/North African countries and have spent the last 30 years as a soldier, diplomat and now civil servant delaing with international affairs. Many years ago I was 20 minutes from being blown up by a terrorist bomb, myself. Six people were killed and 40 injured, mainly kids, and have absolutely no sympathy for terrorists of any persuasion.

It is important to realise that Islamists did not invent terrorism. The US was really very lucky (or the FBI very good) in being isolated from the effects of terrorism for so long. We had about 30 years of very active domestic versions here in Europe from about 1970 to 2000. Examples include the IRA, Red Army Faction, Red Brigades, ETA, neo-fascists. There are many similarities between them and the Al-Qaeda(s) of today.

First, the members generally come from two backgrounds. Some are middle-class, well-educated kids with no emotional or social stake in society. I have seen many youths of this type in the Mid-East (as well as remembering them from the 70’s here), who are educated enough to see the feebleness and brutal incompetence of their own leaders, but who do not feel any attraction to liberal democracy. The other group consist of equally rootless semi-criminal kids with no self esteem who are looking for some structure in their lives. Both categories are easy targets for recruitment by “revolutionary” groups.

Such groups thrive on a romantic appeal and on having a defined (if diffuse) enemy. What you do not do, if you want to cut off recruitment, is to accept the opponent’s claim of status. Unfortunately, this is exactly what Mr. Bush did in elevating dealing with Al Qaida to a “War on Terror”. This provides them with all the romantic appeal they could want in their catchment areas as “standing up to the big bully US”. If you want a comparison, just remember how normal providing money to the IRA was seen by many in the US in the 70’s as standing up to the English.

It is true that dealing with the Al Qaida camps in Afghanistan required a military response and a well organised coalition was put together to deal with that. (I have some misgiving regarding the blanket bundling of Al Qaida and the Taliban, though. When I dealt with Afghanistan in the mid-nineties, the US was probably the most Taliban-friendly of the Western nations, largely due to the perceived need for a non-Iranian pipe-line for Central Asian oil. I suspect that the insistence of keeping Taliban prisoners is more an issue of stabilising the present Government of Afghanistan.)

In most cases, fighting terrorism is however best managed viewing it as a criminal activity. This means police should be in the lead, closely linked with intelligence services. The military should be kept available but not visible.

I have no idea what concept of the war against terror motivated the US to go into Iraq. It was a massively brutal, but essentialy secular dictatorship and quite effective in limiting terrorist activity on its territory, by simply killing any suspects.

While the actual fighting of the war was very competently handled by the US, the lack of (preferably civilian) police accompanying the troops baffles me. There was a major opportunity lost there, and a lot of the present insurrection/terrorrism goes back to those weeks.

The US is now engaged in what can only be described as a peace-keeping operation, even if the term is not popular. Unfortunately, the Army Peacekeeping Institute was abolished early in the decade and the competence scattered. This has meant that a lot of time has been lost relearning the craft. Most people do not realise that peace-keeping is usually much more dangerous for the troops than anything but frontline combat. This is because you cannot use overwhelming force in the contacts with the general population (even if you are not actively threatening them). In some ways the most important message you can project is that “you would rather not be there”. This is why civilian police, wearing home uniforms, can play such an efficient role. Training local troops to take over is the other main job.

This is however well understood by the other side (never under-estimate people just because you do not comprehend them) and their strategy is playing out well. They want to insulate the US forces from the local population. They want to force the troops to act defensively and alienate them. They also, with very little success so far, want to provoke the Shiites to retaliate agaist Sunnis. As Ayatollah Sistani is playing a long game, expecting to take control of Iraq at the end, he has however not let that happen, prefering to have Sunnis being confronted by the US.

So, the Sunni insurgents/terrorist are playing a classical “guerilla” game, straight out of the book, the Shias are playing the political game, the Kurds are happy being autonomous provided they can keep Kirkuk, and the US is in the middle, trying to make sense of it. This is not a simple setup and it would be a pity to reduce it to certainties of good guys against bad guys (while the bad guys usually are quite bad, the good guys are usually not that good…) Welcome to the real world

[quote]TQB wrote:
Such groups thrive on a romantic appeal and on having a defined (if diffuse) enemy. What you do not do, if you want to cut off recruitment, is to accept the opponent’s claim of status. Unfortunately, this is exactly what Mr. Bush did in elevating dealing with Al Qaida to a “War on Terror”. This provides them with all the romantic appeal they could want in their catchment areas as “standing up to the big bully US”. If you want a comparison, just remember how normal providing money to the IRA was seen by many in the US in the 70’s as standing up to the English.

It is true that dealing with the Al Qaida camps in Afghanistan required a military response and a well organised coalition was put together to deal with that. (I have some misgiving regarding the blanket bundling of Al Qaida and the Taliban, though. When I dealt with Afghanistan in the mid-nineties, the US was probably the most Taliban-friendly of the Western nations, largely due to the perceived need for a non-Iranian pipe-line for Central Asian oil. I suspect that the insistence of keeping Taliban prisoners is more an issue of stabilising the present Government of Afghanistan.)

In most cases, fighting terrorism is however best managed viewing it as a criminal activity. This means police should be in the lead, closely linked with intelligence services. The military should be kept available but not visible.

I have no idea what concept of the war against terror motivated the US to go into Iraq. It was a massively brutal, but essentialy secular dictatorship and quite effective in limiting terrorist activity on its territory, by simply killing any suspects.

While the actual fighting of the war was very competently handled by the US, the lack of (preferably civilian) police accompanying the troops baffles me. There was a major opportunity lost there, and a lot of the present insurrection/terrorrism goes back to those weeks.

The US is now engaged in what can only be described as a peace-keeping operation, even if the term is not popular. Unfortunately, the Army Peacekeeping Institute was abolished early in the decade and the competence scattered. This has meant that a lot of time has been lost relearning the craft. Most people do not realise that peace-keeping is usually much more dangerous for the troops than anything but frontline combat. This is because you cannot use overwhelming force in the contacts with the general population (even if you are not actively threatening them). In some ways the most important message you can project is that “you would rather not be there”. This is why civilian police, wearing home uniforms, can play such an efficient role. Training local troops to take over is the other main job.

This is however well understood by the other side (never under-estimate people just because you do not comprehend them) and their strategy is playing out well. They want to insulate the US forces from the local population. They want to force the troops to act defensively and alienate them. They also, with very little success so far, want to provoke the Shiites to retaliate agaist Sunnis. As Ayatollah Sistani is playing a long game, expecting to take control of Iraq at the end, he has however not let that happen, prefering to have Sunnis being confronted by the US.

So, the Sunni insurgents/terrorist are playing a classical “guerilla” game, straight out of the book, the Shias are playing the political game, the Kurds are happy being autonomous provided they can keep Kirkuk, and the US is in the middle, trying to make sense of it. This is not a simple setup and it would be a pity to reduce it to certainties of good guys against bad guys (while the bad guys usually are quite bad, the good guys are usually not that good…) Welcome to the real world[/quote]

First, that was one of the most well thought out and “experienced” posts I have seen in this forum on the subject. Anyone in this country who even holds the belief that many of our actions are actually feeding the “romantic” facade of terrorism is seen as either wimpy, loony or damn near unpatriotic. It is as if there is no understanding that you can’t fight an ideal with gunfire and expect to simply pick them off one by one. Yes, there is hope that democracy spreads in that country, but Lothario, I am amazed that you believe this will happen in less than 20 years. To reduce terrorism to a non-threat by the means at which we are going will take many decades, not one or two (if not centuries).

Yes, considering our current placement (since our post-war actions do not seem to have been thought out), this seems to be our only course of action. Surely, however, you can see how those who don’t hold the opinion of “shoot first and ask questions later” are wondering why those in charge didn’t choose to think this through more thouroughly beyond the battlefield.

As the poster above spoke of terrorist actions in Europe from the IRA and other groups, does anyone truly believe we are about to end terrorism in a few years? If you do, then you obviously believe that “drug war” was won soon after Nancy Reagan quoted the slogan on the inside of a box of “Lemon Heads”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
I didn’t think my reply was that lengthy. Your scatological reference certainly speaks to how clever you really are. Your right however, I do feel a little bad about having nothing to offer this thread, other than to jump in and give you a little taste of what its like to try have an intelligent discussion with you on the forum. I would imagine that if you flushed yourself along with your decent shit, we wouldn’t know the difference. Try a woman. Much better than a catalog and easier on the wrists.

Dude, you are lame. Your comebacks are lame. You have offered no point of view at all in this thread yet you keep posting responses. Please go play in another forum or possibly another web site.

[/quote]

I’m not playin bitch.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
I didn’t think my reply was that lengthy. Your scatological reference certainly speaks to how clever you really are. Your right however, I do feel a little bad about having nothing to offer this thread, other than to jump in and give you a little taste of what its like to try have an intelligent discussion with you on the forum. I would imagine that if you flushed yourself along with your decent shit, we wouldn’t know the difference. Try a woman. Much better than a catalog and easier on the wrists.

Dude, you are lame. Your comebacks are lame. You have offered no point of view at all in this thread yet you keep posting responses. Please go play in another forum or possibly another web site.

I’m not playin bitch.[/quote]

LOL!

[quote]TQB wrote:
Unfortunately, the Army Peacekeeping Institute was abolished early in the decade and the competence scattered. [/quote]

I have to correct myself. The Army Peacekeeping institute was eventually retained and recast as the US Army Peacekeeping and Stability Operations Institute. Its focus is however very high level and does not really build up hands-on experience.

Thanks for posting, TQB. And maybe I’m an optimist here, but I just don’t see us still in Iraq the way we are now in twenty years. Things will get better.

[quote]Elder Troll wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The majority of the people against gay marriages aren’t against them because they object logically. They are against it because of personal biases (illogical) or religious beliefs (also illogical even though I hold the same).

Shouldn’t the law represent the spirituality and beliefs (note I don’t use the term religion) of the people?[/quote]

Not in a secualr society, that claims religious freedom as one of its fundamental values.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Wow, I think thunder actually struck a huge nerve with all you liberals. Why don’t you all just regroup and admit you just had your ass kicked intelectually. Very well thought out replies thunder, it couldn’t have been put better.[/quote]

Please send me some of what you are smoking.

Good post when will the US take responsibility for its actions?
I’m glad to know that if a bomb accidently fell on your house and killed your family you’d hold no grudges against that country.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Just more leftist bullshit! When will we ever, for the love of God, start to take responsibility for our own actions? When will we require others to take responsibility for their own actions, not just the USA? WTF!

New flash idiots, you can’t “make” anyone anything! Their actions are based on their own choices and free will. A Terrorist is one because he chooses to be so. No one can make him a terrorist.
[/quote]

Okay, you can’t make him, but you can torture his family, kill his children by bombing his house, and really enhance the likelihood of him making a choice you don’t want to be made.

Open your eyes. People make choices based on what they see around them, what happens to them, and whether or not within their belief system they become convinced that they see an evil they need to resist.

Wow. That’s a big one if your mind can grasp it.

You do realize that right? They don’t hate us because we are free. They see us an overbearing evil that is interfering in their region, their politics, consuming their oil, killing their families, and so on.

No, I don’t agree with them, but I do imagine a skewed media presentation of the west combined with troops being forced to kill and capture both guilty and innocent people isn’t helping people make the “right” choices over there.

Think man, use that big lump of shit between your ears for more than a simple pussy finding device.

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
-It’s not being sympathetic. Understanding what motivates our enemy is a critical step in fighting them. To have your head so deep in the sand as to believe that America was just innocently sitting around minding our own business when 9/11 happened is ignorant beyond words.[/quote]

So your position is that we were asking for it?

There are many degrees between simple innocence and guilt.

If you are starving, would you steal a loaf of bread to survive? Sure. If you were tortured, would you confess to crimes? Sure. In either case, would you have done anything wrong?

Our behaviors are certainly influenced by the situations around us. To ignore that and decide that actions are happening in the Middle East for no reasons at all is pure insanity.

Something, and I don’t live there so I don’t really know, is driving these people to hatred, desperation, or something to the point that they want to kills people to get their point across.

Let’s go torture them all, I’m sure they are asking for it. It’s not like torturing people will do any harm, I mean, it isn’t one of the reasons that the evil dictator known as Saddam had to be toppled or anything. You know, government sanctioned torture?

What happened? How come I live in bizarro universe? This is fucking surreal.

[quote]vroom wrote:

What happened? How come I live in bizarro universe? This is fucking surreal.[/quote]

Good question. You seek to provide justification for acts like strapping bombs on women to blow up hotels and hijacking planes to crash into buildings.

These acts are not justifiable, yet you try to blame them on our interrogation techniques our accidental killing of civilians and other harsh realities of war.

You do live in a surreal bizarro universe. Now I understand why you have such difficulties with the reality of this universe.

Do I sign off with “hello” or “bad bye” in your bizarro universe?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
-It’s not being sympathetic. Understanding what motivates our enemy is a critical step in fighting them. To have your head so deep in the sand as to believe that America was just innocently sitting around minding our own business when 9/11 happened is ignorant beyond words.

So your position is that we were asking for it?
[/quote]

Nice try, but I won’t let you bait me with your warped interpretation of what I say.

I will, however, answer your question with another question.

Are you saying that America minds it’s own business and we go about our merry way without any global impact, be it economic, political, military, or cultural?

[quote]nephorm wrote:
For a nuanced view on this, see Stern’s “Terror in the Name of God.” She goes into a lot of detail about the recruiting tactics for suicide bombers, and the mentality of the terrorist leaders pulling the strings. Hint: Not necessarily the same outlook on the situation.

She has some great information on marginalized cultural groups, including fundamentalist Christians in the US, some of whom feel that they require increasingly more drastic measures to prevent secular liberalism from taking over their lives.

She also goes into depth about the situation in the Gaza strip and the corruption of the PLO. Interesting reading, without all the rhetoric from our “sane American.”[/quote]

Going to have to look at this, cheers for reference.