Ah, see, this is where you make a critical flaw in your thinking. Those acts are not justifiable. If I’m so against torture, do you think it would really make sense that I would ever try to justify something like that.
Shame on you for being such an asshole to even suggest that. I may be trying to understand the issues faced by those that do it, the issues the drive them to their decisions, but I’d never claim it was a justified action.
I’d really like an apology for your statements, but I’m pretty sure you aren’t man enough to do so. That’s horrible of you to say.
No, those actions are not justifiable. However, you try to blame them on some imagined hatred that springs out of existence for no reason. Rather than try to understand your enemy you would rather ignore the issues and put your soldiers at risk by not carefully considering the the reasons for the issues they are facing.
That is despicable. Your fellow citizens, fighting soldiers, risking their lives for your comfort and safety deserve much more effort from you than that. Again, you should be ashamed you are letting them throw their lives on the line for you without even trying to understand why.
Obviously, you don’t have to agree with me, but at least you should actually think about and have some small understanding of the issues involved.
Congratulations for being such an asshole as to just accept whatever talking points come along as justification for throwing away soldiers lives.
[quote]You do live in a surreal bizarro universe. Now I understand why you have such difficulties with the reality of this universe.
Do I sign off with “hello” or “bad bye” in your bizarro universe?[/quote]
You sign off any way you like. Until you open your eyes and learn to think, you are just taking up space on this planet. Couldn’t you have been born a rodent or something?
Really, congrats, it is a remarkable achievement that you’ve demonstrated…
What happened? How come I live in bizarro universe? This is fucking surreal.
Good question. You seek to provide justification for acts like strapping bombs on women to blow up hotels and hijacking planes to crash into buildings.
These acts are not justifiable, yet you try to blame them on our interrogation techniques our accidental killing of civilians and other harsh realities of war.
You do live in a surreal bizarro universe. Now I understand why you have such difficulties with the reality of this universe.
Do I sign off with “hello” or “bad bye” in your bizarro universe?[/quote]
I’m confused…do you honestly believe that they are blowing themselves up just because they felt like seeing what their intestines looked like? Do you not see the benefit in understanding what fuels your enemy’s hatred of you? I don’t even understand your position. It seems you are against even attempting to understand what CREATES these terrorists as you attempt to make yourself believe they just do it for no reason or because we just happen to exist. As long as people hold this view along with you, we damn sure won’t stop making new ones. No one here has tried to justify acts of terror.
Honestly, the FBI does more research into the mind of serial killers and their creation than many are even attempting to spend on the creation of an ideal that fuels the hatred of thousands. Does the FBI’s research constitute “justifying” serial killings? Please. Gain a clue on this one.
[quote]vroom wrote:
You seek to provide justification for acts like strapping bombs on women to blow up hotels and hijacking planes to crash into buildings.
Ah, see, this is where you make a critical flaw in your thinking. Those acts are not justifiable. If I’m so against torture, do you think it would really make sense that I would ever try to justify something like that.
Shame on you for being such an asshole to even suggest that. I may be trying to understand the issues faced by those that do it, the issues the drive them to their decisions, but I’d never claim it was a justified action.
I’d really like an apology for your statements, but I’m pretty sure you aren’t man enough to do so. That’s horrible of you to say.
These acts are not justifiable, yet you try to blame them on our interrogation techniques our accidental killing of civilians and other harsh realities of war.
No, those actions are not justifiable. However, you try to blame them on some imagined hatred that springs out of existence for no reason. Rather than try to understand your enemy you would rather ignore the issues and put your soldiers at risk by not carefully considering the the reasons for the issues they are facing.
That is despicable. Your fellow citizens, fighting soldiers, risking their lives for your comfort and safety deserve much more effort from you than that. Again, you should be ashamed you are letting them throw their lives on the line for you without even trying to understand why.
Obviously, you don’t have to agree with me, but at least you should actually think about and have some small understanding of the issues involved.
Congratulations for being such an asshole as to just accept whatever talking points come along as justification for throwing away soldiers lives.
You do live in a surreal bizarro universe. Now I understand why you have such difficulties with the reality of this universe.
Do I sign off with “hello” or “bad bye” in your bizarro universe?
You sign off any way you like. Until you open your eyes and learn to think, you are just taking up space on this planet. Couldn’t you have been born a rodent or something?
Really, congrats, it is a remarkable achievement that you’ve demonstrated…[/quote]
vroom, you are so full of shit. In the year I have posted in these political threads all you have done is criticise the war effort and tried to justify the terrorists acts by blaming US policies.
Everytime you are confronted you deny it and then go back to doing it.
Then you try to drag down the thread by insulting whoever dares call you on your bullshit.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
…
What happened? How come I live in bizarro universe? This is fucking surreal.
Good question. You seek to provide justification for acts like strapping bombs on women to blow up hotels and hijacking planes to crash into buildings.
These acts are not justifiable, yet you try to blame them on our interrogation techniques our accidental killing of civilians and other harsh realities of war.
You do live in a surreal bizarro universe. Now I understand why you have such difficulties with the reality of this universe.
Do I sign off with “hello” or “bad bye” in your bizarro universe?
I’m confused…do you honestly believe that they are blowing themselves up just because they felt like seeing what their intestines looked like? Do you not see the benefit in understanding what fuels your enemy’s hatred of you? I don’t even understand your position. It seems you are against even attempting to understand what CREATES these terrorists as you attempt to make yourself believe they just do it for no reason or because we just happen to exist. As long as people hold this view along with you, we damn sure won’t stop making new ones. No one here has tried to justify acts of terror.
Honestly, the FBI does more research into the mind of serial killers and their creation than many are even attempting to spend on the creation of an ideal that fuels the hatred of thousands. Does the FBI’s research constitute “justifying” serial killings? Please. Gain a clue on this one.
[/quote]
They do it because they are incredibly brainwashed.
For example in the Palestinian TV show “Childrens Club” they have sung such gems as:
“When I wander into the entrance of Jerusalem, I’ll turn into a suicide warrior, in battledress.”
“Occupier, your day is near, then we will settle our account. We will settle our claims with stones and bullets.”
The list of horrible songs they sing and other things to brainwash children into growing up to be suicide bombers is too long to repeat.
To blame the US for creating these Islamic terrorists is an indefensible position.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
…
Good question. You seek to provide justification for acts like strapping bombs on women to blow up hotels and hijacking planes to crash into buildings.
These acts are not justifiable, yet you try to blame them on our interrogation techniques our accidental killing of civilians and other harsh realities of war.
[/quote]
-Justifiable by who?
-You fail to grasp the reality that it doesn’t matter whether or not we, as America, justify it.
-They DO justify their own actions, and that’s the problem. That’s why we’re in this mess.
-The only viable way to “win” is to understand why they do what they do and attack the problem from that angle.
-Why is it so hard to understand that our current course of action, whether warranted from the start or not, is having the opposite effect of it’s original intent. By most accounts we’re creating more terrorists. How is that winning?
-And please, if you respond, try not reference Iraq. I’m talking about the war on TERROR, not our removal of a dictator we didn’t like.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
“Occupier, your day is near, then we will settle our account. We will settle our claims with stones and bullets.”
The list of horrible songs they sing and other things to brainwash children into growing up to be suicide bombers is too long to repeat.
To blame the US for creating these Islamic terrorists is an indefensible position. [/quote]
Do you or don’t you think that our occupation has created more terrorists or made the joining of the ideal more appealing to those who are susceptible?
Zap, you are blind. Throw around the justify word all you want, you are obviously wrong and it shows your blatant ignorance for the entire world to see. Congrats!
I’ve never ever tried to suggest justification for terrorist actions, and I never will.
However, I’ll be happy to jump into your so called little trap and say that the foreign policies of a country do influence people living in foreign countries. I guess that is why they are called foreign policies, wow.
Sometimes they like what you do, sometimes they don’t. Gee, I can’t imagine how that would add to the fray of the “brainwashed” as you put it.
If people over there are brainwashed by anything, it is religion. However, how come so many of them aren’t terrorists. Wow. Isn’t that important to figure out? How come they aren’t terrorist but at the same time they aren’t acting to stop it? Wow! That’s a bigger one if you are able to wrap your head around it.
Wouldn’t it be good to know the opposite of what causes a terrorist, perhaps what causes someone to not be vulnerable to that path? What things can the US do to help more people be immune to terrorist brainwashing. How can it get more people to be actively against it, such that it is harder to commit acts of terrorism?
Heaven forbid we figure out the answer to these questions. That would be horrible wouldn’t it! It would save the lives of soldiers, and it is truly sad that nobody, especially you, seems to think the effort needed to save the lives of soldiers is worthwhile.
Learning about these issues is in general good. It means you can take action to influence these things the way you want them to turn out. It allows you to make some predictions sometimes, helps you capture people other times.
Finding ways to fight terrorism, via a better understanding of the issues involved, will help you save lives.
Aren’t you the same guy that would do anything, including torture plenty of innocent people, if it would save even one life.
You clown. There are ways we can save lives by combatting terrorism through a better understanding of it. And, as I always try to make clear, this means the use of force AS WELL AS other means.
Your empty condescension notwithstanding, much like your attempts to cite your own unoriginal material, this is simply a Leftist rehash of the hackneyed ‘American foreign policy caused all this’ stuff.[/quote]
Because you site any material at all?
Terrorism is the warefare of those whom don’t have tanks. War is politics by other means that diplomacy. Of course it is a protest.
Yet you hastily ignore America’s funding of the non-Muslim Saddam Hussein when he attacked the Muslim Iran back in the eighties. Or the support of Israel’s genocide in Palestine. Or the detention against the Geneva convention of Muslims in Cuba. Or the US military presence in Saudi, Oman, Jordan etc. Since when has the US been Muslim friendly?!
As I have pointed a myriad of times you can not say terrorists have the same goal. The ones in Iraq? I have a feeling they aren’t bent on world domination! The ones in Chechnya, hmmm. Al Quaeda, well originally Bin Laden said he wanted to ‘remove the US military footprint’ from Saudi. The Palestinian bombers? I don’t think they are trying to take over the world.
We don’t know what the London bombers wanted but the BBC talked about a report commisioned after 7/7 in Muslim communities in which those communities themselves said foreign policy was a large part of their disenfranchisement. Don’t over-simplify and assume terrorist goals are black or white.
That is just made up (see above).
Who the hell is sympathetic?! Its a matter of being responsible for the grievences you create!
You’d have to read the whole Chalmers Johnson book to find out. He goes into quite a lot of detail about who wants to get rid of American bases.
Our welfare systems are based off US military subsidies? I don’t think France and Spain etc need huge land armies to fight off terrorists and Europe has given up going to war with itself. I think its smaller defense systems are more based on a lack of military industrial complex and a recognition that this is not 1942 any more.
Yeah, it’d be pretty hard defending ourselves from those Viking longships that keep raiding our shores without a US military presence. And what with all the UN missions? What bearing does that have? Its not tough, the world wants America to do the UN thing, just like most nations do, but not the things that contravene the UN (like the forrays into Iraq, Central America etc).
Well McDonalds does get targeted in France a lot, but I digress. You make out that all America does is ship the odd burger abroad when in reality US culture, financial and military establishments pervade the world. I know because I actually live in ‘the world outside’ and travel extensively in ‘the world outside’.
Nobody that I know of has brought a Marxist doctrine into any of this. You’d be well advised to read ‘Clash of Civilisations’ by Samuel Huntington.
Because he wants to remove the US military footpr… etc etc
Maybe they associated with the Palestinians, and the Iranians, and the Iraqis who all suffered injustice with backing from the West.
How nice. Part of the problem or part of the solution. Hmmm.
Explain with references. If you could address the Iraq-Iran conflict in particular that would be interesting.
Complicity? What, trying to understand grievences is complicity now is it? Because Muslims just made it up of the tops of their heads because they were bored. ‘Complicity’ was a foolish word to use.
Sorry are you talking extremists or are all Muslims now terror suspects? Your racism is poking through.
What the hell?
When have I even condoned a terror strike? I just think there are more ways to stop terrorism than invading Middle Eastern countries. In fact that has simply worsened things.
My ideas are open more diplomatic avenues with Middle Eastern countries. Withdraw from Iraq soon, but not to quickly and work damned hard with our own Muslim groups to achieve a good relationship. The doctrines of the IMF and World bank need to be heavily revised and updated and the UN’s power needs to be reinforced so that non-Western nations feel protected and will then co-operate to help catch terrorists with a sustained intelligence assault. We need to not invade Middle Eastern countries. What are your ideas? ‘Bomb the hell outta them?’ I suspect.
Does fighting back against the radical Islamic terrorists help them recruit? Yes.
Would not fighting back help us win? No.
Does using tough tactics in our war help them recruit?
I highly doubt it. They get enough recruits just by the fact there is a fight. Our tactics do not make them hate us more or make them want to win more.
But Zap why do we have to fight a war in the first place? Why can’t we all live in peace?
Because they don’t want to live in peace. They want their culture to dominate. We think ours is better so we want our culture to dominate.
Why does any culture have to dominate? Why can’t the world just be stagnant?
Things change. The world is a dynamic place. To try to maintain the status quo is impossible.
We can fight this war or we can surrender. There never has been long term peace in all of history. It is naive to pretend we can fight a clean war or no war and not be subjegated.
I await the silly insults from the left that apparently think life is like a Disney movie.
Umm, we have to look no further than this silly post of yours to find a strange disney movie.
Life is not “this” or “that”.
I’m amazed at the incredible “insights” you are able to offer into the complexities of the issue. Wow, that anlysis should be a presented to the DoD for study.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I await the silly insults from the left that apparently think life is like a Disney movie
Umm, we have to look no further than this silly post of yours to find a strange disney movie.
Life is not “this” or “that”.
I’m amazed at the incredible “insights” you are able to offer into the complexities of the issue. Wow, that anlysis should be a presented to the DoD for study.
Bad bye.[/quote]
vroom, the next incredible insight you offer will be your first.
When you cannot counter something that does not fit with your line of thinking you fall back on your sarcasm.
You claim that you are against the terrorists and their actions yet you continually rail against every action the US takes in the war. Perhaps you should be the one helping those poor misguided chaps in Washington with your incredible insight and wisdom.
Maybe you should start posting some real suggestions on how this war should be fought and not just parroting mindless criticism motivated by politics.
I don’t rail against every action taken against terrorism. I rail against the ones that are things I would view as mistakes. I wasn’t railing against Afghanistan at all. I think a war against Iraq launched under proper justifications would have been acceptable, but it was pushed through on fear.
I do rail against torture, is that what is confusing you? I rail against curtailing rights in a way that opens the door to potential abuse of US citizens. Is that what is confusing you?
If, in fact, the administration used illegal means to quell dissent when launching the war, such as the actions taken by Cheney, Rove and Libby (and, yes, the jury is still out on that), then I’d rail against that too. Can you not possibly imagine that a persons own principles would have them speak out about these things?
Perhaps you have missed them? If you have been paying attention as you say, you’d notice that I say things like clandestine operations, psychological warfare, determining how to win public opinion in the middle east, and so on, IN ADDITION TO armed combat.
I will routinely point out the principles, my own principles and reasoning mind you, for the positions I take. I’m not sure you notice, but that is what shows that I’m not just parroting talking points as you and many others love to do.
I’ll routinely concede points and try to demonstrate that I see parts of the issues as described by others… but that is not good enough.
Seriously, what are you talking about, you are arguing against what you have either heard that I do, or you just don’t even put in enough thought to even see what I really say.
[quote]AZMojo wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
-It’s not being sympathetic. Understanding what motivates our enemy is a critical step in fighting them. To have your head so deep in the sand as to believe that America was just innocently sitting around minding our own business when 9/11 happened is ignorant beyond words.
So your position is that we were asking for it?
Nice try, but I won’t let you bait me with your warped interpretation of what I say.[/quote]
I’m not attempting to bait you. However that is what you were implying with your comments, and I’ve certainly heard that argument before.
[quote]
I will, however, answer your question with another question.
Are you saying that America minds it’s own business and we go about our merry way without any global impact, be it economic, political, military, or cultural?[/quote]
Absolutely not. No country on the face of this earth is capable of such a feat as we are all symbiotic to a certain degree. Radical Islam however, has consistantly shown that it’s goal is to wipe from the face of the earth anybody except radical Islam.
Radical Islam and the terrorism that it espouses simply does not allow for peacful change in the world. If US foreign policy angers them, their first thought is not to meet it head on with intelligent political manuevering. It has always decided to meet it head on with death, destruction and terror.
The consistant application of terror as a polical means, combined with a United Nations which is nothing more than a parade of thugs, dictators, and crooks; sets the stage for what we saw as near unilateral action against terror and those who support it.
The US, along with it’s allies, crushed Germany and Japan in WWII. We then set about spending billions to build them back up and now those countries are our allies.
It is in this rebuilding that terrorism will dissapeer. A new infastructure, more and better hospitals, a democratic representation of the many different peoples of Iraq (kinda reminds you of the US huh), a stabalized econemy; all of these things and others that I haven’t mentioned will lend itself to the intolerance of terrorism.
Unfourtunately all of this will take time and the political opourtunists in this country are showing that they are willing to throw US success under the bus to regain power.
Hopefully politics won’t get in the way of this success.
Two things. First, it is arguable that that decision wasn’t the worst available, given the other option of placating Iran. Second, name one Islamist who hates the US because we subsidized Saddam. Oh, and the US represented less than 2% of Saddam’s subsidies. Under your rationale, France - 13% of the payouts - would be the crosshairs.
Nonsense. Mere recitation of the genocide claim won’t get you any traction. Go look at Sudan - that is what genocide looks like. Israel is an internationally recognized nation. Moreover, the Arab anger at Palestine is a recent phenomenon; one more excuse to direct rage at Israel.
Genocide? Arabs live and work in Israel - doesn’t it seem counterintuitive that that Israel was trying to conduct ethnic cleansing while giving sanctuary to Arab Muslims within its own borders?
At the invitation of the governments.
What kind of history do you learn?
Amazingly naive of you to take these fascists in good faith. The US is out of Saudi Arabia - so you expect OBL’s limited objective has been fulfilled so he will get out of the terror business, right?
As for Iraq, have you heard Zarqawi’s comments on democracy and Sharia law? As for the Palestinians, they simply want the destruction of the Jewish state, not compromise or settlement of boundaries.
All these motives add up to dominance and control. As for taking over the world, I suspect that is ambitious given their limitations, but so what? We cannot coexist with fascist jihad.
But, how open-minded of you to give them the benefit of the doubt!
Wait - foreign policy was the source of disenfranchisement at home? You do know that disenfranchisement means being neutered from the political process - so they can’t vote because of foreign policy?
I suspect you don’t know what you are talking about.
[quote]A desire to replace the authoritarian regimes of, say, Saudi Arabia with Islamist Sharia law is - repeat, not - a desire to experience liberal institutions and freedom. They want a more authoritarian regime - more cruel, more brutal, and more vicious than the one they are being oppressed by.
That is just made up (see above).[/quote]
Nonsense, go read the jihadist literature. Go read the statements of the various terror groups. If you need a hand, try www.memri.org.
Classic brainless academic exercise - imputing motives to people even when the people themselves contradict the ascribed motives. Want to know what the Islamists want? Go read what they say instead of manufacturing some external reason why they really do what they do.
Good for this Chalmers. Who the hell is Chalmers?. Only people I care about talking about the bases needing removal are the European leaders that would actually vote for such a thing. And what do I hear from the EU when it is time to vote the bases out? Crickets chirping.
You have become a cartoon. Do you have any idea what kind of expenditures individual European nations or the EU in the aggregate would have to spend to have a defense independent of NATO?
The European economies have nearly bankrupted themselves without the commitment to independent defense - what do you think would happen if they suddenly had to take on that responsbility?
As for your other statements - I am astounded at your naivete. What, with the threat of a nuclear-tipped Iran at Europe’s doorstep, an ascendant Russia, or potential trouble in the Balkans?
Are you a fool? Kosovo/Bosnia was in the late 1990s. Incredible ignorance of world events.
The foray into Bosnia did not receive UN approval. You knew that, right?
As for the Viking longship comment - do you actually think Europe has achieved a war-free paradise?
I just got back from a trip in Europe - I stopped in France and Austria.
Don’t pull the faux-elitist “I see the world” rubbish with me - or do you want to compare notes on our travels?
If Europe wants to de-Americanize its society, I am ok with that - so stop buying out products. Simple choice and it would do European identity a world of good. So why is no one doing it?
Then by all means, read up. The general grievance as blathered by the Left is that if only these poor Arabs weren’t being oppressed by global capitalism they wouldn’t be blowing themselves up. It is always about ow the ‘other’ is poor or victimized and that is why they do what they do. I am saying the poor aren’t conducting terror.
And so the US is gone - so OBL will quit, right? He won’t create another grievance and want to go further, right? And further still, right? He will - under your rationale - quit?
Let’s see if history plays out that way. If you could put money on that outcome, would do you do it?
What Palestinian injustice? Israel has the right to be where they are.
Who in Iraq is targeting the US because the US backed Saddam? You are making this up as you go.
And the Iranians? When have we backed Iran to the detriment of its people?
[quote]These grievances are self-inlflicted wounds.
Explain with references. If you could address the Iraq-Iran conflict in particular that would be interesting.[/quote]
Arab culture has been in a continual backslide - it is a culture increasingly humiliated by modernity. Its basis is tribalism, gender apartheid, theocracy, and idealization of a Dark Ages caliphate by those who have power.
Note the rarity of violence among democratic nations that conduct trade with one another. The Arab nations are left out of this, and so they grow ever poorer and stupider.
Even if we didn’t buy oil from Arab states, this culture would be in the shape it is in - angry, resentful, and humiliated.
As for Iran-Iraq - in retrospect, I would have preferred a different solution, but foreign policy most often deals with a choice not between something bad and something good - which is an easy choice- but between something bad and something worse.
[quote]Oh well - the sad part is that the Left - the self-appointed stewards of the Enlightenment - have thrown empiricism out the window and have had their reactionary attitude completely played by the Islamists like a tune.
Sorry are you talking extremists or are all Muslims now terror suspects? Your racism is poking through.[/quote]
Huh? That doesn’t even make any sense. How did you derive that I now suggested that all Muslims were terror suspects?
Embarrassing.
You would be wrong, as usual.
My ideas?
Give Iraq and - oh yeah, Afghanistan! - the foundation for democracy patterned after the Marshall Plan and make sure we create a modern trading relationship with the two countries.
But get out as soon as practically possible and let them take ownership of their fledgling democracies.
Continue to develop energy independence.
Begin to limit trade opportunities with countries that don’t share our political values (I, unlike some conservatives, do not think free trade relationships with autocratic countries will bring a cascade of liberalism to their political system).
Continue to deal with unsavory nations through diplomacy, but with a diplomacy that they know is always backed by an unapologetic use of force. Call it Big Stick.
I would suggest that Iraq is a ‘one shot deal’ in terms of bringing democracy to the ME - no plan to try and foster it beyond Iraq. If these countries want to liberalize, it will be their own decision.
I would support a non-UN multilateral alliance of Western countries, NATO-esque, to deal with international problems dealing with genocide, as in the Sudan.
I have no desire to invade a ME country, and I think that is largely a fantasy of the Left.
I would also seriously reduce foreign aid, or at the minimum, tie it to concrete incentives.
I would try and get a Palestinian state, but under the ultimatum that US help is contingent on exorcising terror elements entirely. Palestinians have to be willing to accept Israel as a legitimate state before I would lift a finger to help them.
Perhaps you have missed them? If you have been paying attention as you say, you’d notice that I say things like clandestine operations, psychological warfare, determining how to win public opinion in the middle east, and so on, IN ADDITION TO armed combat.
…[/quote]
We already do all that stuff. You have listed nothing new. Unfortunately the American left (and much of the world) continually focuses on the harsher realities of war in order to make the US look bad thereby undercutting our efforts at winning support.
If it wasn’t our some of our harsh interrogation techniques it would be something else that the left would be complaining about, such as loss of life and destruction of property.
This is the reality of war. To try to clean up war is impossible. The Geneva Convention only works when both sides adhere to it. When only one side follows it it just becomes a useless set of limitations that if anything may serve to lengthen the war.
Being nice to the enemies that have sworn to kill you is silly.
[quote]It is in this rebuilding that terrorism will dissapeer. A new infastructure, more and better hospitals, a democratic representation of the many different peoples of Iraq (kinda reminds you of the US huh), a stabalized econemy; all of these things and others that I haven’t mentioned will lend itself to the intolerance of terrorism.
Unfourtunately all of this will take time and the political opourtunists in this country are showing that they are willing to throw US success under the bus to regain power.
Hopefully politics won’t get in the way of this success.[/quote]
Flamer, though I am not a fan of many of the policies enacted while going towards this goal, the goal itself is great. I’m hoping the capacity to steer that path is within the abilities of our glorious leaders.
Perhaps if we applied ourselves to following our own principles while we travelled this road, such as not torturing people willy-nilly, not using illegal means to quell dissent (again, the jury is out on this one) then the probability of success would be higher?
People aren’t necessarily arguing against a successful outcome when they take issue with the behavior of the Bush administration. Can you see that is at least possible?
Pretty interesting that our forces are working to STOP torture and mistreatment. For the record I abhor the random mistreatment of any prisoners although I strongly believe that targeting specific terrorists for harsh interrogation is a responsible policy.
Some Detainees Found in Baghdad Tortured
By BASSEM MROUE (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
November 15, 2005 4:32 PM EST
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi and U.S. officials disclosed Tuesday that more than 170 malnourished Iraqi detainees had been found in a weekend raid at an Interior Ministry detention center and that some appeared to have been tortured.
U.S. and Iraqi forces discovered the inmates when they went into the facility suspecting that individuals there may have been mistreated, the Pentagon said.
A Sunni politician said the prisoners were Sunni Arabs and accused the Shiite-led government of long ignoring the abuse.
Coalition forces “found things that concerned them,” Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said. He did not say when the inmates were found, but U.S. troops took control of the Interior Ministry building on Sunday.
Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said Iraqi authorities were investigating what happened and that the detainees had been moved to a better location and given medical care.
Perhaps if we applied ourselves to following our own principles while we travelled this road, such as not torturing people willy-nilly, …[/quote]
I do not believe we are torturing people willy nilly. I am not sure if our interrogation techniques should be classified as torture or not and I am damn sure our forces our doing their best not to mistreat people willy-nilly.
We obviously have some bad apples, but to insinuate this is going on “willy nilly” is wrong.
[quote]We already do all that stuff. You have listed nothing new. Unfortunately the American left (and much of the world) continually focuses on the harsher realities of war in order to make the US look bad thereby undercutting our efforts at winning support.
If it wasn’t our some of our harsh interrogation techniques it would be something else that the left would be complaining about, such as loss of life and destruction of property.[/quote]
Who is this “the left” you like to refer to. Why don’t you talk to people about the issues they actually raise instead of presuming you know their minds for them?
Describe to me some of the initiatives taken, you can leave out the classified clandestine operations obviously. Show me what is being done, outside of invading Iraq and attempting to install a democracy, that is artfully winning friends overseas.
There is no undercutting efforts at winning support going on. You, and some others on these forums, really like to brand people as unpatriotic whenever you can, but it just isn’t so. Nothing being said on these boards is undercutting any efforts.
Well, perhaps you mean we won’t torture as many people indescriminately. You may be right, but I don’t think you get to decry that so much. War is hell, but you don’t have to relish in it and use that an excuse for any depravity you can think of.
If you want to win support, you’ll have to understand the issues on the minds of other people and address them. You can’t just sweep aside concerns and claim that raising the concerns instead of ignoring them is the problem.
Indeed, there are those that feel that all war is bad and so on. Most of the people on this forum are not of that opinion. I don’t think I hear many people bitching about Afghanistan. Why is that? Was that not a war? Did not and do not people still suffer? Why the hell is that not a touchy point with people?
The administration is unfortunately doing a very good job of making the US look bad. It isn’t the fault of the “left” that this is the case. It is the fault of the administration for having such low adherence to the principles that make America great. Blame them, not the left.
And yes, damn it, Clinton did a very fucking poor job of showing principles as well. I know some idiot out there would have to trot that out as if it justifies all transgressions for all times.
I should pull a Rainjack move on you and suggest you PROVE that the criticisms taking place have negatively impacted the war effort. That there are objectives that have been missed particularly due to such discussions.
America is a free and open society. You know what freedom is right? One way to look at it is the absense of abuse of authority. People will fight and die for freedom. The US should be sure to stay on the right side of the principles that caused it to be founded, no matter how depraved the other side is.
Maybe you don’t see my point. But put some thoughts down. Please, show me YOUR reasoning to support your claims. Then, perhaps I won’t be so incredulous at your responses.