How to Go to Failure?

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
I do not see how someone can ‘perceive’ failure, if you choose to stop doing the exercise due to pain, then that is NOT failure.

For example, doing DB bench presses, I stopped at 6 reps on my first set, not due to pain, but because the weight would not go up anymore.

Like I said, people sometimes equate pain as failure. Imagine a noob thinking, “Oh my, that was a hard rep and it’s so hard and painful. I guess I can’t do another one. I guess I reached failure. I better stop this set.” He could have tried to do another one, and he probably could complete another rep if he didn’t equate the pain with failure.

You don’t feel pain when going to failure?[/quote]

On calves, biceps & hamstrings i most certainly do, on other stuff most pain is blocked out from the determination of finishing the rep

22

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Are we talking about “true failure” as in Mentzer’s example where you go to failure, and then someone holds a gun to your head and says they’ll kill you if you don’t get another rep, so you do. And then tell you that they’ll kill your family if you don’t get another rep, so you do. And that is “true failure”?

throwing caution to the wind like that on a regular basis is a fast lane to injury.

You’ve got to weigh the pros and cons of what you’re doing. Is that one extra rep really worth the risk of not being able to train that body part again for months (and in some extreme cases never again), or having nagging pain for the rest of your life? To me it’s really not.
[/quote]

I bought one of his books. According to Mentzer, the safest rep is the last one because it is so slow and methodical(summary). I don’t have a problem with going to failure, but not for deadlifts or squats.

23

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Are we talking about “true failure” as in Mentzer’s example where you go to failure, and then someone holds a gun to your head and says they’ll kill you if you don’t get another rep, so you do. And then tell you that they’ll kill your family if you don’t get another rep, so you do. And that is “true failure”?

Or are we talking about just not being able to complete another rep in good form (as hard as we may try)?[/quote]

The latter. The former would be like lifting a car to get your child out of an accident everytime you train. Even one rep of that would require months of rehab.

But I suppose the former becomes safer if the load is very light (ie. BW squats).

24

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
According to Mentzer, the safest rep is the last one because it is so slow and methodical(summary). I don’t have a problem with going to failure, but not for deadlifts or squats.[/quote]

Deadlifts, squats, lunges and goodmornings are some of the exercises that I will NEVER EVER train to failure. Maybe GHRs and leg presses, but not those 4.

25

Yeah going to failure for deadlift can be really dangerous. I stop a failed deadlift when its not moving, I don’t power harder and screw up my back.

26

Going to failure is very useful, it teaches you to push past threshholds. But it’s better for younger people then older (Better recovery if you get hurt).

First and foremost You want to try and minimize injury. Here preperation is key, the better you prepare the less likely something bad will happen when you go to failure. Whatever your doing, whether training for boxing, lifting weights, reps are key slow reps fast reps low intensity high intensity. The more you replicate it the more you feel mentally ready for the task. The more your body will be able to handle it.

The best way is to compete with somebody built like you but performs a little better. If it’s somebody you hate it’ll bring more out of you, but if it’s not an official competition it’s hard to get somebody you hate to want to go to the gym and compete against you.

If you have a big ego and like pretty girls, a new girl in the gym hanging around what your about to lift can help, but you have to get her to notice you first. Maybe count out loud the reps.

or last but not least steriods.

I hate going to failure, now that I have to work I don’t do it anymore, but good luck trying.

27

I usually go (intentionally) to failure in my last set.
I think this is the most popular system used by most lifters

28

best way to go to failure:

Don’t use a spotter.

Trust me, you’ll get the weight up.

29

OP,

You’re thinking about this WAY too much. You just keep on going until you know that you would have to cheat too much to get another rep, or that you would just fail completely. If you don’t know how to tell and you think you might have another rep in you, then try another rep, you’ll soon find out if you had it in you after all (just make sure you wont be in danger if you do fail).

30

[quote]IQ wrote:
OP,

You’re thinking about this WAY too much. You just keep on going until you know that you would have to cheat too much to get another rep, or that you would just fail completely. If you don’t know how to tell and you think you might have another rep in you, then try another rep, you’ll soon find out if you had it in you after all (just make sure you wont be in danger if you do fail).[/quote]

Yup, don’t make it so complicated.

D

31

I almost always train to failure. I don’t think it is absolutely necessary for growth however. I have worked out with plenty of people who never train to failure and still have attained impressive physiques.

It is also important to differentiate between the pain of muscle failure and the pain of joint or tendon or muscle tearing. The one time I will terminate a set before muscle failure is if I feel any joint pain or instability. Having dislocated both shoulders in the past, it is not worth the months or years of layoff to get that last rep. If you are just bulldozing your way through with sloppy form and not paying attention to the signals that your body is giving you, it is just a matter of time before you injure yourself.

The mental aspect of weight training and pushing myself as hard as possible is what I love most about weight lifting. Seeing myself get stronger and look better is great, but training my mind and body to work together and develop absolute focus has rewards that extend to all other areas of my life. When I go to the gym, it is the one time in the day that I don’t have to think about anything else. I can be absolutely in the moment and focus on lifting the weight. If I didn’t give 100%, then I feel like I have cheated myself out of an opportunity to improve.

32

[quote]Otep wrote:
best way to go to failure:

Don’t use a spotter.

Trust me, you’ll get the weight up.[/quote]

doesn’t always work.

worked for a while for my bench. After first few times rolling the bar off my body, It took more to make me push myself.

can’t have too many spotters on the deadlift. If it wasn’t so easy to quit deadlifting, alot of people would have alot higher max deads.

33

Going to failure to much taxes my nervous system. Be careful you don’t injure or overtrain yourself.

34

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
I liked the old avatar better, Austin.

I try not to go to failure. I set a number of reps before I touch the weight and I either make that number or I don’t. Bill Pearl was right. You don’t want to train yourself to fail. I don’t think overtraining is the issue. I think the mental aspect of training yourself to fail is the issue. [/quote]

I think you are correct. In fact, I believe there are studies that validate the idea that the more you go to failure the more you fail. In other words, going to failure actually lowers the neural threshold that causes failure. So the result is that you slowly reduce the time you take to reach failure; which means you reduce your ability to lift heavy weights.

35

Lorisco,

Are you being serious?

36

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Lorisco,

Are you being serious?[/quote]

Yeah that one defies response. There may be some study somewhere calculated to negate the armies of trainees who have demonstrated this to be false, but this sure ain’t true for me either.

You have to be smart about failure. In bodybuilding terms I define failure as that point beyond which the target muscles can no longer be worked with that weight with form safe enough to avoid injury. If you are endangering your well being failure has already happened.

Beyond failure is where specialized methods are used after that point to allow the set to continue safely. Squats can in fact be done to failure and beyond with the use of the power rack and a couple partners. The much maligned Smith machine can also be used in such a way to immediately change one’s mind concerning it’s uselessness and faggoty reputation. Multiple drops done with purpose in a Smith machine qualify as “crazy shit” as defined by todays article.

When every last bit of effort I can possibly muster, in safe form, is being expended and the weight is still going down I have reached failure. Do this with a set of squats in the power rack and have some buddies pull a plate off each side when the bar hits the pins so you can keep going and new definitions of hard work will be instantly forthcoming. Do it again and “crazy shit” definitely applies here too. If you think this conditions you to fail, nothing I can say will help.

Edit:
To tie this in with the Gym Rules thread, if you think you can do this without making some significant noise, I dare ya to try. I’m sure there are gyms that will be paging through their insurance policy after they see you do this with a stern fatherly prohibition to follow.

37

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Lorisco,

Are you being serious?

Yeah that one defies response. There may be some study somewhere calculated to negate the armies of trainees who have demonstrated this to be false, but this sure ain’t true for me either.

You have to be smart about failure. In bodybuilding terms I define failure as that point beyond which the target muscles can no longer be worked with that weight with form safe enough to avoid injury. If you are endangering your well being failure has already happened.

Beyond failure is where specialized methods are used after that point to allow the set to continue safely. Squats can in fact be done to failure and beyond with the use of the power rack and a couple partners. The much maligned Smith machine can also be used in such a way to immediately change one’s mind concerning it’s uselessness and faggoty reputation. Multiple drops done with purpose in a Smith machine qualify as “crazy shit” as defined by todays article.

When every last bit of effort I can possibly muster, in safe form, is being expended and the weight is still going down I have reached failure. Do this with a set of squats in the power rack and have some buddies pull a plate off each side when the bar hits the pins so you can keep going and new definitions of hard work will be instantly forthcoming. Do it again and “crazy shit” definitely applies here too. If you think this conditions you to fail, nothing I can say will help.

Edit:
To tie this in with the Gym Rules thread, if you think you can do this without making some significant noise, I dare ya to try. I’m sure there are gyms that will be paging through their insurance policy after they see you do this with a stern fatherly prohibition to follow.[/quote]

LOL. Good post Tirib.

I was thinking the same thing as you and Scott when I read Lorisco’s post. Maybe he is just being sarcastic and is laughing at us right now for taking his “obvious” sarcasm seriously.

The whole “training to failure is training yourself to fail” thing is just a clever play on words IMO and really doesn’t have any real world significance. Training to momentary muscular failure, is most definitely not the same as training yourself to fail at some specific sporting event (or life in general).

In fact, I’d personally go as far as saying that it’s quite the opposite. The athlete who pushes themselves the furthest (while still allowing for sufficient recovery and assuming all of the other components of their training are in place) is the one most likely to succeed.

Like was mentioned before, pushing yourself to the absolute limit of your bodies capabilities is not only going to improve those limits, but is also going to go a long way in developing mental strength and toughness as well.

Oh, and as for your “crazy” squat drop-set, yeah, that sounds brutal. I’m pretty happy with my current routine, so I don’t think I’ll be trying it any time soon (though it does sound like “fun”). I’d also pretty much guarantee that I’d be making some serious noise doing it if I did try it. :wink:

38

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Lorisco,

Are you being serious?[/quote]

I was actually being serious and there are a number of trainers / authors on this site that agree with me.

But I think it is how you define “failure”. My statements were related to absolute failure in the context of low volume high intensity work, basically the HIT method.

Going to failure after one set is much different than multiple sets to failure. The level of CNS activation is much higher in a one set to failure routine. So it is basically neural failure and not contractile tissue failure. I know many see it as the same, but I believe that it is much different.

When you do one set to failure all your HTMU’s are still fairly fresh. So you have most all of them functioning at a high level of force. With this high level of force and you still are reaching absolute failure on one set the rate coding is crazy. This in turn makes the GTO more sensitive and the result is that it shuts down the action quicker.

But with multiple sets to failure the HTMU’s are already fatigued and not producing a high level of actual (not perceived) force. This lower level of force does not make the GTO feel that you are in eminent danger of ripping your arms off, so it is less sensitive and the action is limited by actual muscle fatigue (metabolites, etc) and not neural activity (GTO).

So in my experience going to failure (cannot lift the load no matter how hard you try) on one set (HIT style) will slowly cause you to have a more sensitive GTO, which will limit you strength gains progression. But going to failure with a multiple set routine will not cause this GTO sensitivity.

This is another reason why HIT sucks!

39

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Lorisco,

Are you being serious?

I was actually being serious and there are a number of trainers / authors on this site that agree with me.

But I think it is how you define “failure”. My statements were related to absolute failure in the context of low volume high intensity work, basically the HIT method.

Going to failure after one set is much different than multiple sets to failure. The level of CNS activation is much higher in a one set to failure routine. So it is basically neural failure and not contractile tissue failure. I know many see it as the same, but I believe that it is much different.

When you do one set to failure all your HTMU’s are still fairly fresh. So you have most all of them functioning at a high level of force. With this high level of force and you still are reaching absolute failure on one set the rate coding is crazy. This in turn makes the GTO more sensitive and the result is that it shuts down the action quicker.

But with multiple sets to failure the HTMU’s are already fatigued and not producing a high level of actual (not perceived) force. This lower level of force does not make the GTO feel that you are in eminent danger of ripping your arms off, so it is less sensitive and the action is limited by actual muscle fatigue (metabolites, etc) and not neural activity (GTO).

So in my experience going to failure (cannot lift the load no matter how hard you try) on one set (HIT style) will slowly cause you to have a more sensitive GTO, which will limit you strength gains progression. But going to failure with a multiple set routine will not cause this GTO sensitivity.

This is another reason why HIT sucks!

[/quote]

Ah. I thought you meant training to failure in itself is bad. Cool info.

40

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

I think you are correct. In fact, I believe there are studies that validate the idea that the more you go to failure the more you fail. In other words, going to failure actually lowers the neural threshold that causes failure. So the result is that you slowly reduce the time you take to reach failure; which means you reduce your ability to lift heavy weights.

[/quote]

My opinion on this is that you have a set number of reps, but at least if you make those before failure (i.e. then continue to failure), mentally it’s not the same as just ‘going to failure’.

Personally when I do train to failure, I never do it for all my sets. I at least do the first set close to, but at least 1 rep short. I agree with the injury thing above - going to failure on the last set is less injury prone than on the first set or two.