How to Develop a Better Adonis Belt?

Training
21

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
When I started lifting, I weighed 125 lbs, 40 lbs less than your friend. I’m 5’10. I had zero injuries in my past. I was just very small, although not completely unathletic. I played golf and tennis in high school, and baseball until I was 15. It took me a year to reach 165lbs BW. When you start out very, very small/weak, progress can be slow-going initially, because there are so few things in the weight room you can actually do.

I couldn’t do a broomstick squat with any sort of reasonable form when I started. There was no way in hell I could have done what your friend did, starting at 85 lbs. 85 would have stapled me. I remember being stapled the first time I tried to squat 135, in fact.[/quote]

Well, that’s interesting. 125 at 5’10 is VERY skinny. I know because I was pretty damn skinny myself, and I was 135-145 throughout high school (also 5’10).

If you could play tennis, though, you could probably do a few bodyweight squats, right? There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). But for underweight young males they can usually squat bodyweight at least. And the question is how fast your progress could have been with proper coaching/training/nutrition.

If you did 3x5 bodyweight squats Monday, couldn’t you have done 3x5 with a 10 or 15lb bar on Wednesday? Assume some basic coaching on form, and a caloric surplus, couldn’t you have added 10 lbs per workout for a few weeks? If you were eating enough to gain 40 lbs in a year (which is quite a lot), my guess is you could have added A LOT of weight to your squat in that time.

And maybe you did. My point is that a lot of guys just never make the attempt, more because of lack of knowledge than motivation, I think. I didn’t have any one coaching me, for sure. I started lifting with a home DB set that only went up to 52.5 lbs, and still put on 25 lbs BW in 3-4 months. Then I went back to college, where there was a beautiful new weight room with 5 double-sided power racks, and the first time I tried squatting I went straight to the smith machine lol.

22

I’m not sure why these arguments always occur. People develop at different paces for different reasons. If you took two kids and put them in the same classroom doing the same exact work from Kindergarten to 12th grade would you expect them to know the same exact things? The answer, imo, is no because each student is different and is going to absorb / retain different knowledge based on any number of factors. The same principle applies here and there’s an even greater number of variables.

23

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
When I started lifting, I weighed 125 lbs, 40 lbs less than your friend. I’m 5’10. I had zero injuries in my past. I was just very small, although not completely unathletic. I played golf and tennis in high school, and baseball until I was 15. It took me a year to reach 165lbs BW. When you start out very, very small/weak, progress can be slow-going initially, because there are so few things in the weight room you can actually do.

I couldn’t do a broomstick squat with any sort of reasonable form when I started. There was no way in hell I could have done what your friend did, starting at 85 lbs. 85 would have stapled me. I remember being stapled the first time I tried to squat 135, in fact.[/quote]

Well, that’s interesting. 125 at 5’10 is VERY skinny. I know because I was pretty damn skinny myself, and I was 135-145 throughout high school (also 5’10).

If you could play tennis, though, you could probably do a few bodyweight squats, right? There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). But for underweight young males they can usually squat bodyweight at least. And the question is how fast your progress could have been with proper coaching/training/nutrition.

If you did 3x5 bodyweight squats Monday, couldn’t you have done 3x5 with a 10 or 15lb bar on Wednesday? Assume some basic coaching on form, and a caloric surplus, couldn’t you have added 10 lbs per workout for a few weeks? If you were eating enough to gain 40 lbs in a year (which is quite a lot), my guess is you could have added A LOT of weight to your squat in that time.

And maybe you did. My point is that a lot of guys just never make the attempt, more because of lack of knowledge than motivation, I think. I didn’t have any one coaching me, for sure. I started lifting with a home DB set that only went up to 52.5 lbs, and still put on 25 lbs BW in 3-4 months. Then I went back to college, where there was a beautiful new weight room with 5 double-sided power racks, and the first time I tried squatting I went straight to the smith machine lol.
[/quote]

Your point about the leg press is definitely relevant. That’s what I started with, since just having the 45 lb bar was unmanageable to start. My leg training when I started definitely wasn’t ideal, but I also had mobility issues at multiple joints. It’s hard for me to say I could properly perform even a bodyweight squat at the very beginning. I did not see real progress on the squat until I really nailed down the movement pattern. Once I did, my strength went up quite a bit over a short period of time, but it took awhile to get to the point where that could happen.

I definitely ate plenty when I started though. That was something I did right. coaching was non existent, so I can’t speak to how much this COULD have helped. I did read TNation articles regularly, but I don’t think I found the site until I’d been lifting for about a year.

24

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.

25

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’m not sure why these arguments always occur. People develop at different paces for different reasons. If you took two kids and put them in the same classroom doing the same exact work from Kindergarten to 12th grade would you expect them to know the same exact things? The answer, imo, is no because each student is different and is going to absorb / retain different knowledge based on any number of factors. The same principle applies here and there’s an even greater number of variables. [/quote]

There are certainly variables, including starting points – people begin at different levels of strength, flexibility, bodyweight, fat %, etc. But I don’t think the school example is analogous, because that concerns the relatively nebulous arena of intellectual development. We are talking about physiology.

And the point is that the RATE OF ADAPTATION of the human body to a strength training stimulus, in an unadapted / untrained individual, is very high. Hence “newbie gains.” And that the VAST MAJORITY of people in the typical gym have not actually taken advantage of their genetic potential to quickly get stronger.

So, yes, there are lots of variables, and people will progress at different rates… GRANTED… but I don’t see the point of continually harping on that when there’s another point not commonly accepted or realized by a lot of people who spend time spinning their wheels in the gym – namely that you can get a lot stronger in a relatively short period of time if you’re unadapted to training. The first point – everyone is different – while true, can easily be and IS used as an excuse to limit progress.

26

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.

27

before lifting vs now. That’s what 125 lbs looks like on a 5’10 male, lol.

28

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’m not sure why these arguments always occur. People develop at different paces for different reasons. If you took two kids and put them in the same classroom doing the same exact work from Kindergarten to 12th grade would you expect them to know the same exact things? The answer, imo, is no because each student is different and is going to absorb / retain different knowledge based on any number of factors. The same principle applies here and there’s an even greater number of variables. [/quote]

There are certainly variables, including starting points – people begin at different levels of strength, flexibility, bodyweight, fat %, etc. But I don’t think the school example is analogous, because that concerns the relatively nebulous arena of intellectual development. We are talking about physiology.

And the point is that the RATE OF ADAPTATION of the human body to a strength training stimulus, in an unadapted / untrained individual, is very high. Hence “newbie gains.” And that the VAST MAJORITY of people in the typical gym have not actually taken advantage of their genetic potential to quickly get stronger.

So, yes, there are lots of variables, and people will progress at different rates… GRANTED… but I don’t see the point of continually harping on that when there’s another point not commonly accepted or realized by a lot of people who spend time spinning their wheels in the gym – namely that you can get a lot stronger in a relatively short period of time if you’re unadapted to training. The first point – everyone is different – while true, can easily be and IS used as an excuse to limit progress.
[/quote]

Sure, but even noobie gains are individual and varied. Some people experience them for 6 months some for 3 years.

I would say physiology is a relatively nebulous arena as well.

29

225x5 for a beginner squatting is pretty good, I think…

30

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe there are adult males who are unable to do air squats (I feel bodyweight squats could be a misleading term) without serious medical conditions.

31

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe there are adult males who are unable to do air squats (I feel bodyweight squats could be a misleading term) without serious medical conditions.[/quote]

https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+guy&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1291&bih=616&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CXBnVefzN6u0sASQ9oCgDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&dpr=0.9

…

(I guess you could say that’s a serious medical condition).

32

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe there are adult males who are unable to do air squats (I feel bodyweight squats could be a misleading term) without serious medical conditions.[/quote]

https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+guy&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1291&bih=616&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CXBnVefzN6u0sASQ9oCgDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&dpr=0.9

…

(I guess you could say that’s a serious medical condition). [/quote]

As a leading cause of death in the developed world, I would say yes, that definitely counts as a serious medical condition.

33

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe there are adult males who are unable to do air squats (I feel bodyweight squats could be a misleading term) without serious medical conditions.[/quote]

https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+guy&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1291&bih=616&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CXBnVefzN6u0sASQ9oCgDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&dpr=0.9

…

(I guess you could say that’s a serious medical condition). [/quote]

As a leading cause of death in the developed world, I would say yes, that definitely counts as a serious medical condition.[/quote]

Swell…

34

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe there are adult males who are unable to do air squats (I feel bodyweight squats could be a misleading term) without serious medical conditions.[/quote]

depends on what you mean here. If you’re talking about dropping below parallel, with their heels remaining on the ground, then I’ve seen plenty who can’t. I’ve seen people who get close, and then simply can’t go deep enough. I’ve seen others who literally fall over when they try.

35

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
There are some people not strong enough to even squat bodyweight when they start, and they need to build some basic strength first (Rippetoe says this is the only reason to use a leg press machine). [/quote]

That seems silly.
[/quote]

He says a lot of hyperbolic things. That is part of his charm, I guess.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe there are adult males who are unable to do air squats (I feel bodyweight squats could be a misleading term) without serious medical conditions.[/quote]

depends on what you mean here. If you’re talking about dropping below parallel, with their heels remaining on the ground, then I’ve seen plenty who can’t. I’ve seen people who get close, and then simply can’t go deep enough. I’ve seen others who literally fall over when they try.
[/quote]

Fair point, I should have clarified that I meant from a strength point of view.

36

[quote]Yogi wrote:
225x5 for a beginner squatting is pretty good, I think…[/quote]

What would you guys consider a pretty good bench press, for a beginner?

37

That is a GREAT before/after pic, Flipcollar. I need to find a pic of myself at 20 years old 150 lbs.

The people who can’t do a BW squat are generally overweight. More BW = higher starting load for the lift.

38

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
225x5 for a beginner squatting is pretty good, I think…[/quote]

What would you guys consider a pretty good bench press, for a beginner?[/quote]

If by beginner we mean someone in their first year of training with no significant athletic background, I’d say… 225x1 would be a pretty good benchmark if they started out fairly weak. I don’t think I reached that in my first year, but I started out barely being able to bench the bar. For someone who starts out heavier, I’d probably raise the standard. Or maybe bodyweight for 5 reps. That’s a pretty good goal in the first year I think. That’s probably more along the lines of what I achieved.

39

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
225x5 for a beginner squatting is pretty good, I think…[/quote]

What would you guys consider a pretty good bench press, for a beginner?[/quote]

If by beginner we mean someone in their first year of training with no significant athletic background, I’d say… 225x1 would be a pretty good benchmark if they started out fairly weak. I don’t think I reached that in my first year, but I started out barely being able to bench the bar. For someone who starts out heavier, I’d probably raise the standard. Or maybe bodyweight for 5 reps. That’s a pretty good goal in the first year I think. That’s probably more along the lines of what I achieved.[/quote]

Bodyweight for 5 would be about what I would say. I don’t think most beginners need encouraging to increase their bench though.

40

[quote]craze9 wrote:
That is a GREAT before/after pic, Flipcollar. I need to find a pic of myself at 20 years old 150 lbs.

The people who can’t do a BW squat are generally overweight. More BW = higher starting load for the lift. [/quote]

I’m almost tempted to start a thread, could be interesting to see peoples before and afters.