How to Deal with Stupid Parents

Off Topic
261

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You think just because you have pretty piece of paper that you paid 50K for, that MEANS SOMETHING? LOL

Unless you can PERFORM and PROVIDE REAL VALUE, you are worthless. No matter how much that pretty piece of paper cost you.

[/quote]

yea? What if you have the piece of paper AND provide real value?�??�?�¢?�??�?�¦then what?

I know that a large construction equipment company in MN DUMPED EVERYONE who didn’t have that piece of paper (after talking to someone who works there).

Go tell this people who got laid off that the piece of paper does’t matter.[/quote]

There are PLENTY of people without that piece of paper who do AS WELL, if not BETTER, than those with it. And if I cared to rebut your fallacious argument from the particular to general, I could find tons of examples of people WITH that piece of paper who are unemployed AND unemployable.

My POINT is that if you can provide value, you will be steadily employed. If you have the degree AND can provide value, good for you. But having the piece of paper and NOT providing any value? UNEMPLOYED…

In many industries, it’s the PROVIDING VALUE that matters, not the degree.[/quote]

It’s the piece of paper that provides “value”. You think spending 5 years learning about engineering, accounting, law, etc means you’re useless? That’s laughable. That piece of paper means I put my time in learning this mind numbing shit, and means that I am liable for X work when I get employed.
[/quote]

You obviously don’t understand what “value” is. I spend a significant amount of my time, energy and brain power at my job several times a week explaining to “engineers” with degrees why their stupid, hair brained ideas will not work in real life, so spare me. An engineering degree is A START. I regularly tear to shreds the ideas of those 22 year old engineers with tattoos and a nose ring who think they know how to engineer a critical power design better than me and my nearly twenty years of EXPERIENCE (and five year apprenticeship, and a shit ton of continuing industrial power education, complimented by my own research). Some of these stupid mutherfuckers with “that piece of paper” cant even describe the difference between a centralized and distributive bypass setup on a UPS.

Look, I’m sure you’re smart. I’m sure that you will have a fine engineering career and god bless you - you’ve earned it. But make no mistake: when you come out of school and enter the workforce, you are a FUCKING TADPOLE. That’s it. You don’t “know” SHIT about how REAL construction projects work… Sure you’ve studied the theory, can do the math, know the liability of certain design factors, etc… Blah, blah, blah. That doesn’t tell you how to act in the weekly job meeting. That doesn’t tell you when to speak up or shut up (even when you know you’re right). That doesn’t get you off the hook for the change order you are liable for because you missed that extra conduit on the drawings.

And don’t get it twisted, when you are hired, you won’t be liable for SHIT! LOL Your boss, or your boss’s boss will be the one stamping the approved set of drawings, not you. If you’re lucky you’ll catch 80% of the mistakes. Your boss will catch the next 10% and his boss will catch the next 5%. Yours truly will find the final 5% after you’ve approved the drawings and BEFORE the construction begins and will turn a 10 and 5 profit job into a 10 and 25 profit job. And THAT’S why I make between 250K and 300K a year WITHOUT A DEGREE. Because I translate engineering mistakes into MONEY FOR MY COMPANY. So forgive me if I’m not so terribly impressed with that piece of paper… I’m just an ex felon without a HS diploma and I fix engineering mistakes for a fucking living. [/quote]
Damn lol.

262

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Sorry LB, the paper itself does not provide value. That’s always on the person and how he performs day in day out. Some jobs require that paper to get in the door, but that’s just where you find your opportunity to provide that value and it’s also often where you really begin to learn how to do your job.

Having a degree doesn’t mean you’re useless, that is laughable. It also doesn’t mean you’re not useless. Have you honestly never met anyone with a degree who was lazy, ineffective or just plain stupid when it came to practical matters? Really? Conversely have you never known a person with a grade 10 education who just plain knows how to get shit done?

I have put 10 years into my profession. My training has been 100% on the job, old school apprenticeship-style training. I am liable for the work that I do and I am one of the top guys in my industry. I have known guys who have gone the school route for the same job I’m doing. Are they worth more than I am? Sure they are, if they can do more work than I can per unit of time or if they can do it better, but I have not found that to be the case, neither have my clients, employer etc.

I’m not crapping on your degree, but it’s not the be all end all. It’s you, the individual, who brings the value.[/quote]

That’s not any different than a guy learning on the job for 10 years and scamming people with having poor worksmanship. The paper is not useless because it signifies you’ve learned the necessary information up to standard with what is considered necessary to be able to perform the duties and functions of your designated profession. The paper is PROOF that you are up to par as far as knowledge goes.

People saying “well, it’s more about the person” are missing the point. The piece of paper is on the job training. The piece of paper is knowledge of how to perform the job. Blanket statements of “haven’t you ever met lazy cuntface X in Feminism 101” are pointless.
When I get hired to oversee projects, I am being hired because of my knowledge and expertise in the subject. Doesn’t matter how star spangled awesome you are, if you aren’t an engineer, you will not be placed in an engineering position. If I am a lazy fuck, that’s on me, and my reputation will ensure I don’t get another job. That is the same for any job whether you have a degree or not. Politicians are the exception.[/quote]

Actually, learning on the job for 10 years and providing ethical, excellent quality service is essentially the exact opposite of that. Furthermore, having a degree in no way assures ethical conduct or workmanship. It proves you learned and retained information to the standards of a given institution at a given time. That is a good thing. It is however essentially the exact opposite of on the job training. This seems self- evident as one happens in a classroom and the other happens on the job…

As to whether the person or the credential is more important, my wife works in a grad studies dept in a top school. All the students she works with are Masters candidates from all over the world. Some will go on to work on projects that may change the world. Others will not. Some may go straight into teaching others without ever having done for themselves. They all have the same credential, their actions determine their worth. This is as it has always been.

Of course you need an engineering degree to do an engineering job. However not everyone needs or wants an engineering or equivalent job to be successful. Tradespeople, entrepreneurs, artists/artisans and many others earn their living solely on the strength of what they are able to accomplish or create, credentials or lack thereof notwithstanding. Examples of this abound.

I really don’t see why it’s hard for you to accept that there’s more than one way to skin a cat, unless you’re just so pissed off about what your degree cost you that you need to believe that the doors to prosperity are forever barred to those who opted to go another way. In which case, by all means carry on.

263

To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.

But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.

Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.

264

[quote]pushharder wrote:
The Batman delivers, as usual.[/quote]

265

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You think just because you have pretty piece of paper that you paid 50K for, that MEANS SOMETHING? LOL

Unless you can PERFORM and PROVIDE REAL VALUE, you are worthless. No matter how much that pretty piece of paper cost you.

[/quote]

yea? What if you have the piece of paper AND provide real value?�??�?�¢?�??�?�¦then what?

I know that a large construction equipment company in MN DUMPED EVERYONE who didn’t have that piece of paper (after talking to someone who works there).

Go tell this people who got laid off that the piece of paper does’t matter.[/quote]

There are PLENTY of people without that piece of paper who do AS WELL, if not BETTER, than those with it. And if I cared to rebut your fallacious argument from the particular to general, I could find tons of examples of people WITH that piece of paper who are unemployed AND unemployable.

My POINT is that if you can provide value, you will be steadily employed. If you have the degree AND can provide value, good for you. But having the piece of paper and NOT providing any value? UNEMPLOYED…

In many industries, it’s the PROVIDING VALUE that matters, not the degree.[/quote]

It’s the piece of paper that provides “value”. You think spending 5 years learning about engineering, accounting, law, etc means you’re useless? That’s laughable. That piece of paper means I put my time in learning this mind numbing shit, and means that I am liable for X work when I get employed.
[/quote]

Sorry LB, the paper itself does not provide value. That’s always on the person and how he performs day in day out. Some jobs require that paper to get in the door, but that’s just where you find your opportunity to provide that value and it’s also often where you really begin to learn how to do your job.

Having a degree doesn’t mean you’re useless, that is laughable. It also doesn’t mean you’re not useless. Have you honestly never met anyone with a degree who was lazy, ineffective or just plain stupid when it came to practical matters? Really? Conversely have you never known a person with a grade 10 education who just plain knows how to get shit done?

I have put 10 years into my profession. My training has been 100% on the job, old school apprenticeship-style training. I am liable for the work that I do and I am one of the top guys in my industry. I have known guys who have gone the school route for the same job I’m doing. Are they worth more than I am? Sure they are, if they can do more work than I can per unit of time or if they can do it better, but I have not found that to be the case, neither have my clients, employer etc.

I’m not crapping on your degree, but it’s not the be all end all. It’s you, the individual, who brings the value.[/quote]

Well put

266

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You think just because you have pretty piece of paper that you paid 50K for, that MEANS SOMETHING? LOL

Unless you can PERFORM and PROVIDE REAL VALUE, you are worthless. No matter how much that pretty piece of paper cost you.

[/quote]

yea? What if you have the piece of paper AND provide real value?�??�?�¢?�??�?�¦then what?

I know that a large construction equipment company in MN DUMPED EVERYONE who didn’t have that piece of paper (after talking to someone who works there).

Go tell this people who got laid off that the piece of paper does’t matter.[/quote]

There are PLENTY of people without that piece of paper who do AS WELL, if not BETTER, than those with it. And if I cared to rebut your fallacious argument from the particular to general, I could find tons of examples of people WITH that piece of paper who are unemployed AND unemployable.

My POINT is that if you can provide value, you will be steadily employed. If you have the degree AND can provide value, good for you. But having the piece of paper and NOT providing any value? UNEMPLOYED…

In many industries, it’s the PROVIDING VALUE that matters, not the degree.[/quote]

It’s the piece of paper that provides “value”. You think spending 5 years learning about engineering, accounting, law, etc means you’re useless? That’s laughable. That piece of paper means I put my time in learning this mind numbing shit, and means that I am liable for X work when I get employed.
[/quote]

You obviously don’t understand what “value” is. I spend a significant amount of my time, energy and brain power at my job several times a week explaining to “engineers” with degrees why their stupid, hair brained ideas will not work in real life, so spare me. An engineering degree is A START. I regularly tear to shreds the ideas of those 22 year old engineers with tattoos and a nose ring who think they know how to engineer a critical power design better than me and my nearly twenty years of EXPERIENCE (and five year apprenticeship, and a shit ton of continuing industrial power education, complimented by my own research). Some of these stupid mutherfuckers with “that piece of paper” cant even describe the difference between a centralized and distributive bypass setup on a UPS.

Look, I’m sure you’re smart. I’m sure that you will have a fine engineering career and god bless you - you’ve earned it. But make no mistake: when you come out of school and enter the workforce, you are a FUCKING TADPOLE. That’s it. You don’t “know” SHIT about how REAL construction projects work… Sure you’ve studied the theory, can do the math, know the liability of certain design factors, etc… Blah, blah, blah. That doesn’t tell you how to act in the weekly job meeting. That doesn’t tell you when to speak up or shut up (even when you know you’re right). That doesn’t get you off the hook for the change order you are liable for because you missed that extra conduit on the drawings.

And don’t get it twisted, when you are hired, you won’t be liable for SHIT! LOL Your boss, or your boss’s boss will be the one stamping the approved set of drawings, not you. If you’re lucky you’ll catch 80% of the mistakes. Your boss will catch the next 10% and his boss will catch the next 5%. Yours truly will find the final 5% after you’ve approved the drawings and BEFORE the construction begins and will turn a 10 and 5 profit job into a 10 and 25 profit job. And THAT’S why I make between 250K and 300K a year WITHOUT A DEGREE. Because I translate engineering mistakes into MONEY FOR MY COMPANY. So forgive me if I’m not so terribly impressed with that piece of paper… I’m just an ex felon without a HS diploma and I fix engineering mistakes for a fucking living. [/quote]

Outstanding post!

I work with engineers on a daily basis and the lack of critical thinking skills are astounding. Luckily most don’t have this arrogance of knowing everything because they have the paper.

267

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Sorry LB, the paper itself does not provide value. That’s always on the person and how he performs day in day out. Some jobs require that paper to get in the door, but that’s just where you find your opportunity to provide that value and it’s also often where you really begin to learn how to do your job.

Having a degree doesn’t mean you’re useless, that is laughable. It also doesn’t mean you’re not useless. Have you honestly never met anyone with a degree who was lazy, ineffective or just plain stupid when it came to practical matters? Really? Conversely have you never known a person with a grade 10 education who just plain knows how to get shit done?

I have put 10 years into my profession. My training has been 100% on the job, old school apprenticeship-style training. I am liable for the work that I do and I am one of the top guys in my industry. I have known guys who have gone the school route for the same job I’m doing. Are they worth more than I am? Sure they are, if they can do more work than I can per unit of time or if they can do it better, but I have not found that to be the case, neither have my clients, employer etc.

I’m not crapping on your degree, but it’s not the be all end all. It’s you, the individual, who brings the value.[/quote]

That’s not any different than a guy learning on the job for 10 years and scamming people with having poor worksmanship. The paper is not useless because it signifies you’ve learned the necessary information up to standard with what is considered necessary to be able to perform the duties and functions of your designated profession. The paper is PROOF that you are up to par as far as knowledge goes.

People saying “well, it’s more about the person” are missing the point. The piece of paper is on the job training. The piece of paper is knowledge of how to perform the job. Blanket statements of “haven’t you ever met lazy cuntface X in Feminism 101” are pointless.
When I get hired to oversee projects, I am being hired because of my knowledge and expertise in the subject. Doesn’t matter how star spangled awesome you are, if you aren’t an engineer, you will not be placed in an engineering position. If I am a lazy fuck, that’s on me, and my reputation will ensure I don’t get another job. That is the same for any job whether you have a degree or not. Politicians are the exception.[/quote]

Actually, learning on the job for 10 years and providing ethical, excellent quality service is essentially the exact opposite of that. Furthermore, having a degree in no way assures ethical conduct or workmanship. It proves you learned and retained information to the standards of a given institution at a given time. That is a good thing. It is however essentially the exact opposite of on the job training. This seems self- evident as one happens in a classroom and the other happens on the job…

As to whether the person or the credential is more important, my wife works in a grad studies dept in a top school. All the students she works with are Masters candidates from all over the world. Some will go on to work on projects that may change the world. Others will not. Some may go straight into teaching others without ever having done for themselves. They all have the same credential, their actions determine their worth. This is as it has always been.

Of course you need an engineering degree to do an engineering job. However not everyone needs or wants an engineering or equivalent job to be successful. Tradespeople, entrepreneurs, artists/artisans and many others earn their living solely on the strength of what they are able to accomplish or create, credentials or lack thereof notwithstanding. Examples of this abound.

I really don’t see why it’s hard for you to accept that there’s more than one way to skin a cat, unless you’re just so pissed off about what your degree cost you that you need to believe that the doors to prosperity are forever barred to those who opted to go another way. In which case, by all means carry on.

[/quote]

Another great post

268

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.

But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.

Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.[/quote]

I disagree. My current job is managing a the critical power for a data center. My company provides the union electricians that manage and maintain (and build/service) about 25 large data centers in the Northern VA area. Several of the lead electricians are very intelligent individuals who have only recently graduated the apprenticeship. They have seven or so years in the trade, no degree and make the same money as I do.

Also, this is true for the customer I serve (a very large provider that is a household name). Their management is all about the ability to perform, not what degree they have. There are some VERY high level managers without formal degrees. Some of them are good, some not so much, but it’s all about the individual’s ability to DELIVER THE VALUE.

Now, for full disclosure, they do not sit in on engineering meetings or review the prints like I do. They don’t “moonlight” in the testing department or get called for critical response like I do. But I do that because I enjoy it. I could very easily just sit back, manage the building, make my schedule for 72 hours a week and make the loot. But what fun is that?

I also know many skilled tradesmen in the oil/gas industry who make a shit ton of money with no degree. There are niches that you can take advantage of if you are smart. Not everyone is smart enough or savvy enough to see the opportunities and maximize them. But to say those opportunities aren’t there anymore just isn’t true.

I’ll concede that there are many industries where your point is VERY valid. But not in MY world…

269

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Speaking of jobs for young guys, I know this has been discussed before several times on T-N but you can land a very well paying job in western North Dakota if you can pass a drug test and know how to get out of bed in the morning. Very nice wages.

It has slowed up some in the last year or so and isn’t quite was it was awhile back but you CAN do very well if you’re a decent character. The opportunities are significant.[/quote]
I will jump in here and say I have 4 projects I manage in Houston. That will top out at about 3000 people per site. If you cant find a job in Houston right now you are just a lazy shit.

270

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
I forgot how fun this forum is sometimes. Only wish I could have seen the initial posts real time because I would have been on this so fast![/quote]
0_0

Blast from the past

271

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.

But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.

Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.[/quote]

I disagree. My current job is managing a the critical power for a data center. My company provides the union electricians that manage and maintain (and build/service) about 25 large data centers in the Northern VA area. Several of the lead electricians are very intelligent individuals who have only recently graduated the apprenticeship. They have seven or so years in the trade, no degree and make the same money as I do.

Also, this is true for the customer I serve (a very large provider that is a household name). Their management is all about the ability to perform, not what degree they have. There are some VERY high level managers without formal degrees. Some of them are good, some not so much, but it’s all about the individual’s ability to DELIVER THE VALUE.

Now, for full disclosure, they do not sit in on engineering meetings or review the prints like I do. They don’t “moonlight” in the testing department or get called for critical response like I do. But I do that because I enjoy it. I could very easily just sit back, manage the building, make my schedule for 72 hours a week and make the loot. But what fun is that?

I also know many skilled tradesmen in the oil/gas industry who make a shit ton of money with no degree. There are niches that you can take advantage of if you are smart. Not everyone is smart enough or savvy enough to see the opportunities and maximize them. But to say those opportunities aren’t there anymore just isn’t true.

I’ll concede that there are many industries where your point is VERY valid. But not in MY world…[/quote]

Fair enough. That does surprise me given your field. I’m not trying to say every single high ranked job requires a degree, as obviously that’s not true, and people can get to good positions by working their way up. But there are companies where you can hit a ceiling and you just won’t get promoted further without that bit of paper. Which I do think is stupid and wrong, but that’s just the way it is.

If you’re willing to work hard you’re going to succeed no matter what route you go, but a degree definitely keeps more doors open. But then today you pay a heavy price for it, so for many people it’s still not necessarily the right thing to do. I have no regrets for my education, but then I was only paying £3k a year, not the crazy amounts you have in the US, and I did a good subject.

272

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.

But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.

Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.[/quote]

I disagree. My current job is managing a the critical power for a data center. My company provides the union electricians that manage and maintain (and build/service) about 25 large data centers in the Northern VA area. Several of the lead electricians are very intelligent individuals who have only recently graduated the apprenticeship. They have seven or so years in the trade, no degree and make the same money as I do.

Also, this is true for the customer I serve (a very large provider that is a household name). Their management is all about the ability to perform, not what degree they have. There are some VERY high level managers without formal degrees. Some of them are good, some not so much, but it’s all about the individual’s ability to DELIVER THE VALUE.

Now, for full disclosure, they do not sit in on engineering meetings or review the prints like I do. They don’t “moonlight” in the testing department or get called for critical response like I do. But I do that because I enjoy it. I could very easily just sit back, manage the building, make my schedule for 72 hours a week and make the loot. But what fun is that?

I also know many skilled tradesmen in the oil/gas industry who make a shit ton of money with no degree. There are niches that you can take advantage of if you are smart. Not everyone is smart enough or savvy enough to see the opportunities and maximize them. But to say those opportunities aren’t there anymore just isn’t true.

I’ll concede that there are many industries where your point is VERY valid. But not in MY world…[/quote]

Yep. When I first started in the commercial dive industry, with 2 months’ training and the willingness to do difficult, dirty, potentially dangerous work I was immediately qualified for a job that paid more than twice what the guys on site with 4 year science degrees were making. That is still true in that industry today. The dive training centre I attended has a 100% job placement rate for graduates with jobs starting in the $30/hr range. If you have the skills to get onto a saturation diving crew you can expect to earn in the 100k/yr+ range potentially more if you have a skill like welding, electrical etc.

I googled oil and gas pipeline jobs yesterday and immediately got 4000+ vacancies. Many required no degrees and most ranged in pay from decent to quite good. One in particular paid $2500/wk and required HS, some trade/tech school, commercial driver’s license with a clean record and a few endorsements, first aid/H2S etc, some basic computer skills, the ability to pass a drug test and 5 yrs industry experience. This isn’t waaaaay back when I was your age sonny, this is today. A 25 year old who headed out to the patch 5 years ago instead of going to uni could apply for that job and, if he’s kept his nose clean and he’s not an idiot
He could expect to get it. A guy could do a lot worse. Oil and gas, mining, potash etc are some of the highest paid jobs in the country and many don’t require degrees.

I’m not trying to talk anyone out of doing a degree. If you have the means and inclination to pursue one, I fully encourage it. It opens doors. However, do it because you want to, not because you drank to Kool-aid that says you must. Like LB says, the market is saturated with degrees but companies in my country are literally going around the world looking for skilled tradespeople, such is the shortfall, and it’s only getting worse as the old farts hang it up and nobody’s there to take over who actually knows how to do stuff with their hands. This is not a matter of my opinion, it’s a statistical fact, backed by statements from numerous employers and government officials. However, not many teachers or university “advisors” seem too keen to share this information with students. I wonder why…

273

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
But there are companies where you can hit a ceiling and you just won’t get promoted further without that bit of paper. Which I do think is stupid and wrong, but that’s just the way it is.

If you’re willing to work hard you’re going to succeed no matter what route you go, but a degree definitely keeps more doors open. But then today you pay a heavy price for it, so for many people it’s still not necessarily the right thing to do. I have no regrets for my education, but then I was only paying Ã?£3k a year, not the crazy amounts you have in the US, and I did a good subject.
[/quote]

Degrees obviously cost money and as you point out it is increasingly necessary to have a degree (and in many cases advanced degrees/certifications).

One thing I’d like to add though is that a lot of companies will help pay for a college education. For example, the company I work for employees a couple of thousand warehouse employees that do not have college degrees. Every single one of them has the opportunity to be reimbursed $5K a year in tuition expense. That would cover about 11 classes a year at the local community college. It covers a little over 2 graduate classes at one of the larger state schools in MD. This is a viable option to avoid long term debt, but does require sacrifice.

274
275

[quote]SonOfWolf wrote:

Hey yankee college is free here
[/quote]

You’re “free” college obviously fucking sucks at teaching economics.

278

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.

But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.

Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.[/quote]

I disagree. My current job is managing a the critical power for a data center. My company provides the union electricians that manage and maintain (and build/service) about 25 large data centers in the Northern VA area. Several of the lead electricians are very intelligent individuals who have only recently graduated the apprenticeship. They have seven or so years in the trade, no degree and make the same money as I do.

Also, this is true for the customer I serve (a very large provider that is a household name). Their management is all about the ability to perform, not what degree they have. There are some VERY high level managers without formal degrees. Some of them are good, some not so much, but it’s all about the individual’s ability to DELIVER THE VALUE.

Now, for full disclosure, they do not sit in on engineering meetings or review the prints like I do. They don’t “moonlight” in the testing department or get called for critical response like I do. But I do that because I enjoy it. I could very easily just sit back, manage the building, make my schedule for 72 hours a week and make the loot. But what fun is that?

I also know many skilled tradesmen in the oil/gas industry who make a shit ton of money with no degree. There are niches that you can take advantage of if you are smart. Not everyone is smart enough or savvy enough to see the opportunities and maximize them. But to say those opportunities aren’t there anymore just isn’t true.

I’ll concede that there are many industries where your point is VERY valid. But not in MY world…[/quote]

Yep. When I first started in the commercial dive industry, with 2 months’ training and the willingness to do difficult, dirty, potentially dangerous work I was immediately qualified for a job that paid more than twice what the guys on site with 4 year science degrees were making. That is still true in that industry today. The dive training centre I attended has a 100% job placement rate for graduates with jobs starting in the $30/hr range. If you have the skills to get onto a saturation diving crew you can expect to earn in the 100k/yr+ range potentially more if you have a skill like welding, electrical etc.

I googled oil and gas pipeline jobs yesterday and immediately got 4000+ vacancies. Many required no degrees and most ranged in pay from decent to quite good. One in particular paid $2500/wk and required HS, some trade/tech school, commercial driver’s license with a clean record and a few endorsements, first aid/H2S etc, some basic computer skills, the ability to pass a drug test and 5 yrs industry experience. This isn’t waaaaay back when I was your age sonny, this is today. A 25 year old who headed out to the patch 5 years ago instead of going to uni could apply for that job and, if he’s kept his nose clean and he’s not an idiot
He could expect to get it. A guy could do a lot worse. Oil and gas, mining, potash etc are some of the highest paid jobs in the country and many don’t require degrees.

I’m not trying to talk anyone out of doing a degree. If you have the means and inclination to pursue one, I fully encourage it. It opens doors. However, do it because you want to, not because you drank to Kool-aid that says you must. Like LB says, the market is saturated with degrees but companies in my country are literally going around the world looking for skilled tradespeople, such is the shortfall, and it’s only getting worse as the old farts hang it up and nobody’s there to take over who actually knows how to do stuff with their hands. This is not a matter of my opinion, it’s a statistical fact, backed by statements from numerous employers and government officials. However, not many teachers or university “advisors” seem too keen to share this information with students. I wonder why…
[/quote]
Software development is another niche that comes to mind depending on how you go about it.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
But there are companies where you can hit a ceiling and you just won’t get promoted further without that bit of paper. Which I do think is stupid and wrong, but that’s just the way it is.

If you’re willing to work hard you’re going to succeed no matter what route you go, but a degree definitely keeps more doors open. But then today you pay a heavy price for it, so for many people it’s still not necessarily the right thing to do. I have no regrets for my education, but then I was only paying Ã??Ã?£3k a year, not the crazy amounts you have in the US, and I did a good subject.
[/quote]

Degrees obviously cost money and as you point out it is increasingly necessary to have a degree (and in many cases advanced degrees/certifications).

One thing I’d like to add though is that a lot of companies will help pay for a college education. For example, the company I work for employees a couple of thousand warehouse employees that do not have college degrees. Every single one of them has the opportunity to be reimbursed $5K a year in tuition expense. That would cover about 11 classes a year at the local community college. It covers a little over 2 graduate classes at one of the larger state schools in MD. This is a viable option to avoid long term debt, but does require sacrifice. [/quote]
Yeah typically you’re obligated to work for with the company for a certain amount of time following that.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.

But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.

Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.[/quote]

You’re too young to know if times have changed.

Pack your suitcase full of excuses around with you long enough and you will tire and fail no matter what.[/quote]

Times have changed, I didn’t say it was harder now. I just said it was different. What part of my statement do you disagree with? I don’t need to be 300 years old to know life for a teenager was different in the 1700s. Likewise I don’t need to be 60 years old to know things were different 35 years ago.

I have no excuses for myself. I did a masters at uni, finished now and I’m making strong progress towards the ultimate career I want.