[quote]pushharder wrote:
See the disconnect in your statements, Ox Man?[/quote]
No I said they were hard for different reasons
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
See the disconnect in your statements, Ox Man?[/quote]
No I said they were hard for different reasons
[/quote]
Of course there are differences. Always have been, always will be.
Suck it up and make your way in the world – “hard,” “harder” or “hardest” be damned. Fuck all the excuses.[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
See the disconnect in your statements, Ox Man?[/quote]
No I said they were hard for different reasons
[/quote]
Of course there are differences. Always have been, always will be.
Suck it up and make your way in the world – “hard,” “harder” or “hardest” be damned. Fuck all the excuses.[/quote]
Indeed, I don’t disagree with you. I was just highlighting a few problems that young people face today.
It was really just in response to people talking about this generation being lazy and having it easy, which is a bit unfair. I think it’s an age old stereotype older people have about the younger generation. There are obviously a lot of lazy fuck ups in every generation that give everyone a bad name. Conversely there are a lot of hard working people who succeed.
In my old university for example the student population has grown in the last 10 years, but the sale of alcohol at the student union is a third of what it was, and overall standard of pupils is higher. A lot of the evidence at my uni at least is showing that the students entering university now are working harder than they were 10+ years ago. This is partly due to the value of the degree falling, so a 2.2 is no longer as sufficient, people really need a 2.1 or a 1st class degree to get their foot in the door.
That’s using the UK standards, I have no idea what those levels are comparable to in the US system.
I suppose some things legitimately have gotten more difficult.
In any economy, value is always about what people are willing to pay. With a goods-based economy, one dealing with the creation, manipulation and sale of physical stuff, valuation is fairly straightforward. And because of that, it’s pretty straightforward what it takes to succeed. Basically, controlling physical assets and/or get better at transmuting items of lower value into something of higher value. (E.g., turning gold into jewelry.)
I won’t say that physical assets have “intrinsic” worth, but most have a large market and values are fairly established within that market. You don’t have to put much work into convincing someone that they need to buy gas for their car; the prices fluctuate, but there’s no questioning that gasoline has value. It’s not a hard sell.
And likewise, people and their skills and their pay can be based on what they do with those assets and the value of those assets. There’s a whole service industry that still uses these goods as the basis for their value.
But here and there the West is shifting to a more idea-based economy, and valuation is becoming a lot less clear. The media industry was hit hard by it, but exactly how valuable is a film? How valuable is a game like Angry Birds? How valuable is a spreadsheet formula that solves some obscure business problem encountered by a single employee working in a bleeding-edge industry that has absolutely nothing to do with any physical good?
It’s no longer much about what it actually “is” (because, objectively there’s no value), but about what you can convince someone to pay for it. There’s always wide ranges of prices people are willing to pay for physical assets, but now we don’t even have a good frame of reference for things. Exactly how much is a digital artist’s time worth? If they happen to create something that people are willing to pay millions for (a successful game), or if they create something that few are willing to pay for (a movie with horrible CGI), does that make the artists work more or less valuable? Should they get paid more or less because of that? What about the guy in the cubicle next to him?
The value of their work is exactly what they sold it for to the person buying it, in this case their employer. The artist might have determined that their work is only worth $10 an hour, and the employer paid it gladly; their neighbor might have determined that they wouldn’t do the work for any less than $150 an hour, and the fact that they got the job shows that the company agreed on that valuation. It may or may not have had anything to do with past work, education, but they were able to successfully convince someone to pay that price.
So nowadays, the markets for your highly-specialized intangible goods (or skills manipulating those goods) can be so small and hard to value, that there’s very little precedent to use as a pricing reference… and that definitely makes some things harder. Especially given that the buyers often have more experience and turn that into influence over the price negotiations.
But the better you understand your capabilities and the better you are at finding the right buyers and the better you are at price negotiation… the better off you’ll be… at least if you’re working in an idea-based economy.
Or, you can work in the goods-based economy, since that will always still be there.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
But there are companies where you can hit a ceiling and you just won’t get promoted further without that bit of paper. Which I do think is stupid and wrong, but that’s just the way it is.
If you’re willing to work hard you’re going to succeed no matter what route you go, but a degree definitely keeps more doors open. But then today you pay a heavy price for it, so for many people it’s still not necessarily the right thing to do. I have no regrets for my education, but then I was only paying Ã???Ã??Ã?£3k a year, not the crazy amounts you have in the US, and I did a good subject.
[/quote]
Degrees obviously cost money and as you point out it is increasingly necessary to have a degree (and in many cases advanced degrees/certifications).
One thing I’d like to add though is that a lot of companies will help pay for a college education. For example, the company I work for employees a couple of thousand warehouse employees that do not have college degrees. Every single one of them has the opportunity to be reimbursed $5K a year in tuition expense. That would cover about 11 classes a year at the local community college. It covers a little over 2 graduate classes at one of the larger state schools in MD. This is a viable option to avoid long term debt, but does require sacrifice. [/quote]
Yeah typically you’re obligated to work for with the company for a certain amount of time following that.[/quote]
True. My company doesn’t do it, but my wife’s does.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
…However, not many teachers or university “advisors” seem too keen to share this information with students. I wonder why…
[/quote]
Because university education is an industry unto itself. It must market and promote itself to keep the government funds spigot wide open.
It’s an industry that relies on Other People’s Money taken from them by force and “redistributed” but it must still compete for that money.[/quote]
Say it ain’t so Push. I thought is was all about disseminating the knowledge to the next generation of wide-eyed little go getters.
An industry you say, I am shocked Sir, shocked I say.
While agree that college is not for everyone it is not as simple as willing to work hard. AC and Batman yes an apprenticeship is a good option but, most have 2-3 year long waiting lists. Everyone wants to get in now, especially for electrician.
There have been whole oil/pipeline threads asking about getting jobs with little to no luck. There are a lot of openings but, many are for leads/specialized personnel and the so called “entry level” jobs require anywhere from 1-3 years of industry experience (how the hell does that work?). AC got his job because he was very qualified.
The same goes for other no degree jobs like policeman and fireman either long waiting lists or hiring freezes. So, if a kid decides college is not for him puts his name on the lists with no guarantee of getting picked up what does he do if he doesn’t ? He now has no real job or degree to fall back on.
My brother and cousins have been looking into apprenticeships ( any openings) whil ein college ,with no luck.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
To Angry Chicken. No doubt you have worked hard and done very well for yourself, it obviously paid off for you.
But if you were 18 now there’s no way you would have got to where you are without doing a degree. Things have changed even in just the last 10+ years. You see this a lot in different industries now, older, senior people don’t have the formal qualifications, but younger people are no longer able to climb that ladder without it.
Times are hard for young people now, education is more necessary than ever, but education is more expensive than ever and education has less value added than ever. Not saying it wasn’t hard for people 30 years ago too, but times change and what problems people face change.[/quote]
I disagree. My current job is managing a the critical power for a data center. My company provides the union electricians that manage and maintain (and build/service) about 25 large data centers in the Northern VA area. Several of the lead electricians are very intelligent individuals who have only recently graduated the apprenticeship. They have seven or so years in the trade, no degree and make the same money as I do.
Also, this is true for the customer I serve (a very large provider that is a household name). Their management is all about the ability to perform, not what degree they have. There are some VERY high level managers without formal degrees. Some of them are good, some not so much, but it’s all about the individual’s ability to DELIVER THE VALUE.
Now, for full disclosure, they do not sit in on engineering meetings or review the prints like I do. They don’t “moonlight” in the testing department or get called for critical response like I do. But I do that because I enjoy it. I could very easily just sit back, manage the building, make my schedule for 72 hours a week and make the loot. But what fun is that?
I also know many skilled tradesmen in the oil/gas industry who make a shit ton of money with no degree. There are niches that you can take advantage of if you are smart. Not everyone is smart enough or savvy enough to see the opportunities and maximize them. But to say those opportunities aren’t there anymore just isn’t true.
I’ll concede that there are many industries where your point is VERY valid. But not in MY world…[/quote]
Yep. When I first started in the commercial dive industry, with 2 months’ training and the willingness to do difficult, dirty, potentially dangerous work I was immediately qualified for a job that paid more than twice what the guys on site with 4 year science degrees were making. That is still true in that industry today. The dive training centre I attended has a 100% job placement rate for graduates with jobs starting in the $30/hr range. If you have the skills to get onto a saturation diving crew you can expect to earn in the 100k/yr+ range potentially more if you have a skill like welding, electrical etc.
I googled oil and gas pipeline jobs yesterday and immediately got 4000+ vacancies. Many required no degrees and most ranged in pay from decent to quite good. One in particular paid $2500/wk and required HS, some trade/tech school, commercial driver’s license with a clean record and a few endorsements, first aid/H2S etc, some basic computer skills, the ability to pass a drug test and 5 yrs industry experience. This isn’t waaaaay back when I was your age sonny, this is today. A 25 year old who headed out to the patch 5 years ago instead of going to uni could apply for that job and, if he’s kept his nose clean and he’s not an idiot
He could expect to get it. A guy could do a lot worse. Oil and gas, mining, potash etc are some of the highest paid jobs in the country and many don’t require degrees.
I’m not trying to talk anyone out of doing a degree. If you have the means and inclination to pursue one, I fully encourage it. It opens doors. However, do it because you want to, not because you drank to Kool-aid that says you must. Like LB says, the market is saturated with degrees but companies in my country are literally going around the world looking for skilled tradespeople, such is the shortfall, and it’s only getting worse as the old farts hang it up and nobody’s there to take over who actually knows how to do stuff with their hands. This is not a matter of my opinion, it’s a statistical fact, backed by statements from numerous employers and government officials. However, not many teachers or university “advisors” seem too keen to share this information with students. I wonder why…
[/quote]
Software development is another niche that comes to mind depending on how you go about it.[/quote]
Makes sense. Universities don’t hold a monopoly on ideas.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I suppose some things legitimately have gotten more difficult.
In any economy, value is always about what people are willing to pay. With a goods-based economy, one dealing with the creation, manipulation and sale of physical stuff, valuation is fairly straightforward. And because of that, it’s pretty straightforward what it takes to succeed. Basically, controlling physical assets and/or get better at transmuting items of lower value into something of higher value. (E.g., turning gold into jewelry.)
I won’t say that physical assets have “intrinsic” worth, but most have a large market and values are fairly established within that market. You don’t have to put much work into convincing someone that they need to buy gas for their car; the prices fluctuate, but there’s no questioning that gasoline has value. It’s not a hard sell.
And likewise, people and their skills and their pay can be based on what they do with those assets and the value of those assets. There’s a whole service industry that still uses these goods as the basis for their value.
But here and there the West is shifting to a more idea-based economy, and valuation is becoming a lot less clear. The media industry was hit hard by it, but exactly how valuable is a film? How valuable is a game like Angry Birds? How valuable is a spreadsheet formula that solves some obscure business problem encountered by a single employee working in a bleeding-edge industry that has absolutely nothing to do with any physical good?
It’s no longer much about what it actually “is” (because, objectively there’s no value), but about what you can convince someone to pay for it. There’s always wide ranges of prices people are willing to pay for physical assets, but now we don’t even have a good frame of reference for things. Exactly how much is a digital artist’s time worth? If they happen to create something that people are willing to pay millions for (a successful game), or if they create something that few are willing to pay for (a movie with horrible CGI), does that make the artists work more or less valuable? Should they get paid more or less because of that? What about the guy in the cubicle next to him?
The value of their work is exactly what they sold it for to the person buying it, in this case their employer. The artist might have determined that their work is only worth $10 an hour, and the employer paid it gladly; their neighbor might have determined that they wouldn’t do the work for any less than $150 an hour, and the fact that they got the job shows that the company agreed on that valuation. It may or may not have had anything to do with past work, education, but they were able to successfully convince someone to pay that price.
So nowadays, the markets for your highly-specialized intangible goods (or skills manipulating those goods) can be so small and hard to value, that there’s very little precedent to use as a pricing reference… and that definitely makes some things harder. Especially given that the buyers often have more experience and turn that into influence over the price negotiations.
But the better you understand your capabilities and the better you are at finding the right buyers and the better you are at price negotiation… the better off you’ll be… at least if you’re working in an idea-based economy.
Or, you can work in the goods-based economy, since that will always still be there.[/quote]
You just convinced me to take even more risks lol.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
There are a lot of openings but, many are for leads/specialized personnel and the so called “entry level” jobs require anywhere from 1-3 years of industry experience (how the hell does that work?).[/quote]
I’ve asked myself this question so many times lol. Junior/entry-level positions that want 1-3 years of relevant professional experience makes no sense to me considering that the position is meant for people new to the industry lol. Say someone completed an internship every summer break since his/her freshman year and that person graduated in four years. That’s three 12 week internships. Not even a cumulative year of experience lol. If they did that every summer since graduating, then they just barely make it. Job requirement: defy time. Seems pretty damn unnecessary. I’ve even seen “internships” that specifically wanted applicants with PhDs.
Did you take that one from me?
[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:
Did you take that one from me?[/quote]
Yes. 
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
While agree that college is not for everyone it is not as simple as willing to work hard. AC and Batman yes an apprenticeship is a good option but, most have 2-3 year long waiting lists. Everyone wants to get in now, especially for electrician.
There have been whole oil/pipeline threads asking about getting jobs with little to no luck. There are a lot of openings but, many are for leads/specialized personnel and the so called “entry level” jobs require anywhere from 1-3 years of industry experience (how the hell does that work?). AC got his job because he was very qualified.
The same goes for other no degree jobs like policeman and fireman either long waiting lists or hiring freezes. So, if a kid decides college is not for him puts his name on the lists with no guarantee of getting picked up what does he do if he doesn’t ? He now has no real job or degree to fall back on.
My brother and cousins have been looking into apprenticeships ( any openings) whil ein college ,with no luck.[/quote]
Here’s the thing about apprenticeships: if you are worth a fuck, you WILL GET IN. I spent almost three years as a helper before I got in the electrical apprenticeship. I worked for a motor controls company and got a shit ton of valuable experience. After a year or so, I was able to run a few small projects. So the time waiting for an apprenticeship isn’t wasted. Working in the trade as a helper is very valuable experience.
But here’s the rub: If you AREN’T worth a fuck, show up late, are lazy, don’t retain what you’re taught and are unpleasant to work with, you sure as shit WILL NOT get in. And we don’t want you…
It’s not for everyone. In twenty years of being a union electrician, I’ve written exactly FIVE letters of recommendation for a young person to be accepted into the apprenticeship. And I’ve worked with literally hundreds of helpers. Most of them didn’t even ask how to get in… Some of them couldn’t find their ass with both hands. Others missed several days a month on average cuz they were out being stupid. But the few that I have recommended ALL got in and are doing/have done very well and have a bright future.
I guess what I’m getting at is this: If I waited almost three years to be accepted into the apprenticeship, what makes THIS generation so special that they shouldn’t have to wait? Why the fuck do they think it should be handed to THEM? It wasn’t handed US…
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
There are a lot of openings but, many are for leads/specialized personnel and the so called “entry level” jobs require anywhere from 1-3 years of industry experience (how the hell does that work?).[/quote]
I’ve asked myself this question so many times lol. Junior/entry-level positions that want 1-3 years of relevant professional experience makes no sense to me considering that the position is meant for people new to the industry lol. Say someone completed an internship every summer break since his/her freshman year and that person graduated in four years. That’s three 12 week internships. Not even a cumulative year of experience lol. If they did that every summer since graduating, then they just barely make it. Job requirement: defy time. Seems pretty damn unnecessary. I’ve even seen “internships” that specifically wanted applicants with PhDs.[/quote]
Apply anyway. Fuck what they “ask for”. That is just a line they put on a job listing to dissuade completely unqualified idiots. You can take just about ANY job and twist your daily activities into some kind of “relevant industry qualification”.
Every SINGLE job I had when I worked down south listed 5 years of off shore experience as a requirement. I was only down there for less than two… Show up and SELL THEM the product they are buying: YOU. Everything is negotiable.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
While agree that college is not for everyone it is not as simple as willing to work hard. AC and Batman yes an apprenticeship is a good option but, most have 2-3 year long waiting lists. Everyone wants to get in now, especially for electrician.
There have been whole oil/pipeline threads asking about getting jobs with little to no luck. There are a lot of openings but, many are for leads/specialized personnel and the so called “entry level” jobs require anywhere from 1-3 years of industry experience (how the hell does that work?). AC got his job because he was very qualified.
The same goes for other no degree jobs like policeman and fireman either long waiting lists or hiring freezes. So, if a kid decides college is not for him puts his name on the lists with no guarantee of getting picked up what does he do if he doesn’t ? He now has no real job or degree to fall back on.
My brother and cousins have been looking into apprenticeships ( any openings) whil ein college ,with no luck.[/quote]
Here’s the thing about apprenticeships: if you are worth a fuck, you WILL GET IN. I spent almost three years as a helper before I got in the electrical apprenticeship. I worked for a motor controls company and got a shit ton of valuable experience. After a year or so, I was able to run a few small projects. So the time waiting for an apprenticeship isn’t wasted. Working in the trade as a helper is very valuable experience.
But here’s the rub: If you AREN’T worth a fuck, show up late, are lazy, don’t retain what you’re taught and are unpleasant to work with, you sure as shit WILL NOT get in. And we don’t want you…
It’s not for everyone. In twenty years of being a union electrician, I’ve written exactly FIVE letters of recommendation for a young person to be accepted into the apprenticeship. And I’ve worked with literally hundreds of helpers. Most of them didn’t even ask how to get in… Some of them couldn’t find their ass with both hands. Others missed several days a month on average cuz they were out being stupid. But the few that I have recommended ALL got in and are doing/have done very well and have a bright future.
I guess what I’m getting at is this: If I waited almost three years to be accepted into the apprenticeship, what makes THIS generation so special that they shouldn’t have to wait? Why the fuck do they think it should be handed to THEM? It wasn’t handed US… [/quote]
I was gonna say something along this line. However I would add the caveat that you MIGHT not get in. You need to accept the possibility that even if you do everything right and you bust your ass for 2-3 years as a helper/menial labourer you may still get screwed. SO WHAT???!!! There are never any guarantees, except that if you don’t try you won’t succeed. You need to work hard, but you also need to be smart, good and sometimes just plain lucky. That said the better, smarter and more hard working you are, the luckier you tend to get.
A guy in my Search and Rescue group was recently telling me a story about a friend of his out in the oilpatch. Somehow this guy had gotten himself hired as a general labourer and had shown that he could show up on time, sober and ready to work. He had also shown that he had a brain in his head. The guy whose job it was to do the supply orders for this particular site didn’t show up for work one day and the order needed to get done.
Because this guy had distinguished himself they asked him if he had any experience with computers. He did, and since this was January in northern Alberta, he was more than happy to do his job inside for a couple days. He put his head down and did the job that would take the other guy a full week in 2 days. They promptly offered him the position permanently. He accepted, having enjoyed the chance to get out of the weather. Then he got his first paycheque and realized that his salary had nearly tripled (to almost 200k/yr) and he now had benefits. Lucky break, sure. But he had created the opportunity to get lucky.
This was about 8 months ago not sometime in the dim dark mists of antiquity when I was a young fella. I keep on hearing how “it doesn’t work like that anymore” and yet I see it working just like that again and again and again.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
See the disconnect in your statements, Ox Man?[/quote]
No I said they were hard for different reasons
[/quote]
Of course there are differences. Always have been, always will be.
Suck it up and make your way in the world – “hard,” “harder” or “hardest” be damned. Fuck all the excuses.[/quote]
Indeed, I don’t disagree with you. I was just highlighting a few problems that young people face today.
It was really just in response to people talking about this generation being lazy and having it easy, which is a bit unfair. I think it’s an age old stereotype older people have about the younger generation. There are obviously a lot of lazy fuck ups in every generation that give everyone a bad name. Conversely there are a lot of hard working people who succeed.
In my old university for example the student population has grown in the last 10 years, but the sale of alcohol at the student union is a third of what it was, and overall standard of pupils is higher. A lot of the evidence at my uni at least is showing that the students entering university now are working harder than they were 10+ years ago. This is partly due to the value of the degree falling, so a 2.2 is no longer as sufficient, people really need a 2.1 or a 1st class degree to get their foot in the door.
That’s using the UK standards, I have no idea what those levels are comparable to in the US system.[/quote]
Although it’s not exactly a representative sample, the students on my course were pathetically lazy. So much so, I graduated student of the year for a 2:1. Only 2 other students got a 2:1 - by the skin of their teeth - whilst the rest were happy to laze around and get 2:2’s or even 3rds.