How to Combat Anti-Climate Change Fools

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
IMO FAUX News is just a partisan hack . Fanning the flames of ignorance

Another Opinion I have that is in the minority is that Obama is just like George Bush no better and by all means no WORSE. [/quote]

What Ignorance? Again it is the most watched news of all news on cable. Give an example of a news ignorant story they advanced.

George Bush is not my fav president but in his library dedication the others praised his integrity and former Clinton people believe Obama should resign over these recent allegations.

Even Nixon is only guilty of trying to find out what Democrats were up to with a break-in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters before election. No one died like those in Benghazi and subsequent cover up, he did not sic the IRS on liberal Democrats, the election was not manipulated as it was in November 2012 with all of this information held until afterwards and Nixon never snooped through the phone correspondence of news organizations. And most importantly he did the honorable thing. He resigned.

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

What Ignorance?

[/quote]

to get me started would just hijack this thread

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

What Ignorance?

[/quote]

to get me started would just hijack this thread
[/quote]

Pittbull that may not be as far fetched as your side believes. I know how it sounds but that is not a dead element to the Obama legacy. Do you understand the released birth certificate has not been properly proven to be real? There is no hard copy of it.

It’s a digital birth record and has a number of oddities to it. There are software experts that have testified what was released was Photoshopped. That is not hard to prove.

Who would have believed the news stories breaking this month just two weeks ago?

http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-birth-certificate-story-not-going-away/

It is only going to get worse: IRS sued for seizing 60 million medical records - Washington Times

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

What Ignorance?

[/quote]

to get me started would just hijack this thread
[/quote]

Pittbull that may not be as far fetched as your side believes. I know how it sounds but that is not a dead element to the Obama legacy. Do you understand the released birth certificate has not been properly proven to be real? There is no hard copy of it.

It’s a digital birth record and has a number of oddities to it. There are software experts that have testified what was released was Photoshopped. That is not hard to prove.

Who would have believed the news stories breaking this month just two weeks ago?

http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-birth-certificate-story-not-going-away/

It is only going to get worse: IRS sued for seizing 60 million medical records - Washington Times
[/quote]

Case closed :slight_smile:

it is also funny :slight_smile:

[quote]conservativedog wrote:
DBCooper what don’t you understand about rapid climate and CO2 changes being much worse before man arrived on the scene?

Scientists drill into frozen lake and glaciers and can give the readouts from thousands of years back and the science says glaciers come and go. Oceans rise in temperature and fall again. Al Gore & Michael Moore take to the liberal shill networks to tell us the sky is falling unless we stop driving cars running on fossil fuels.

F them. They’re getting paid to scare people and open avenues for the U.N. to tax countries for their energy output. This isn’t something you and your neighbors can correct by how much you drive or heat your homes. You don’t amount to squat compared to what the planet is able to do on it’s own. Why can’t you comprehend that???

[/quote]

Where did I say that it was worse now than ever before? Why does what condition the globe was in prior to human civilization mean ANYTHING to the future of humans quality of life on this planet? I could care less about what the planet was like before mankind lived on it. All I know is that there are changes occurring on this planet NOW that are happening at a faster rate than at any other time in human history. There are many changes that are happening at a faster rate than at any time in the planet’s history.

Can we override the fact that the globe will continue to go through changes in its temperature no matter what humans do? No, of course not. But what we can do is slow the rate at which many of these changes occur. We can certainly do a lot to slow the impact that the changing climate is having and will have on the quality of our lives. Why can’t you understand that???

If you’re going to simply argue that the planet at one time in its relatively infant years went through more rapid changes than it is now then you simply don’t understand the problem at all and there isn’t much of a point to me continuing to respond to you. And if you are going to continue down the conspiratorial, the-left-runs-everything road then there REALLY isn’t much of a point in engaging you any further. You’ve made up your mind and created this little scenario in which any challenge to your preconceived notions can simply be written off by saying that those challenges are the result of some vast conspiracy within the scientific community to shove climate change onto an unsuspecting populace. If that’s what you think, then fine. But I am not going to continue to validate that sort of paranoiac, self-serving, ignorant thinking by continuing to engage you.

I laugh. If the climate change science community were simply willing to manipulate their findings and their research to serve the highest bidder it’s pretty ignorant to think that the liberal academic community is the one who would be able to provide the most bribe money. The business community and the oil industry in specific represents more power, money and influence than the academic community. I think they would have a lot more influence and a lot more to lose in this regard, and would follow suit by funding the science communities findings to the tune of something just a bit better than a whopping 3% of the studies that take a stance on the issue one way or another. Good day sir.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]conservativedog wrote:
Shows marked decline in atmospheric CO2 concentrations and decline in temperatures.
[/quote]
Well sort of.

This shows the [b]change[/b] in temperature and the [b]change[/b] in CO2 parts per million volume over time.

The CO2 levels of the Cambrian and Precambrian eras were literally over ten times what they are today (good thing the media wasn’t around to freak out back then!). It was several thousand ppm (it’s like 400 today). It’s a wonder Earth wasn’t some scorching lava planet like Mustafar. In fact it was quite lush.

If CO2 goes below 200ppm, plants stop growing… I don’t see how anyone can tell me we’re all gonna burn up from global warming due to man-made CO2 when the dinosaurs were happily prancing about at levels several times those of today. Hell sharks and crocodiles were alive pretty much back then anyhow, let’s ask them how much better they have it now that the CO2 levels aren’t so damn high.

I mean just look at the graph. Does it look like CO2 really has much sway on global temperatures? Does it? Maybe on a relatively microscopic scale, but not in the grand scheme of things. In fact, I love the infamous “hockey stick graph”. I would use that graph to prove my point that man-made global warming is bullshit. Ironic how one side uses it to prove the opposite isn’t it?

The difference between myself and the vast majority of spoon-fed Americans is that I know the most important part of any graph is the scale and not the pretty picture in the middle lol. Look at the scale! The whole entire hockey stick spike represents a whopping .55 degrees Celsius of temperature change. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!

And the other axis is even worse! It goes back to 1000AD. Sounds like a long time at first. However over the course of history since the emergence of complex lifeforms on this planet, it represents about .00000185% of the total time scale. So… as I often encountered in statistics, sample size is ridiculously too small.

The media loves “educating” people on the importance of the distinction between “weather” and “climate” so that they can push the message of global warming and climate change and why you can’t just look a few years back and talk about weather. But in reality that’s exactly what they’re doing! In the grand scheme of things they’re addressing a ludicrously miniscule amount of time and drawing massive and sweeping conclusions from it.[/quote]

I don’t know why you would think that what wasn’t harmful to the dinosaurs would be anything close to relevant to humans today. I also don’t know why you would hold anything prior to the advent of human civilization as anywhere close to meaningful or relevant either.

Point out to me where I said that climate change was going to “burn us up”, as you so eloquently put it. Oh wait, you can’t, because I never said that. My point is that climate change will lead to different conditions around us then we are used to right now. Someone else pointed to the changes that Vikings endured in “Vineland”.

Rather than be reactionary we should be proactive in preparing for these changes, which is impossible to do when there are still huge swaths of spoon-fed Americans who refuse to accept the reality that climate change is occurring and is at least partially man-made. We cannot reverse this trend and we cannot necessarily stop it. But we can slow it down. Anyone who lived in LA in the 1970’s can tell you how much cleaner it is today thanks in no small part to the changes that humans have enacted. Many of our waterways and our oceanfronts are much cleaner now than they were a generation ago.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OK Bert, let’s say you are 100% correct in all you’ve posted here on this thread. What now?[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t have a comprehensive plan of action. I don’t really subscribe to the whole “impending crisis bearing down on our asses” school of thought. I think the changes that are occurring are happening at a slower rate than many predicted they would in the past, which is at least partially due to some of the measures enacted to slow such changes down. I simply think that we need to be aware that these changes ARE occurring and that there are certain things we can do to our infrastructure and so on to prepare for further future changes.

I think some of these things include shoring up many of the coastal areas susceptible to erosion as ocean levels continue to rise. I think that’s something that is better done sooner than later. I think perhaps it would be wise to somehow discourage coastal housing developments in these areas as well. That could happen via legislation, closing off certain areas to future residential or commercial development, jacking insurance rates way up or whatever. I don’t know what the best pathway is, but I certainly don’t think it is that great of an idea to continue building in vulnerable areas. The same holds true for places like New Orleans or Sacramento, which are major cities sitting below sea level whose levees are in dire need of repairs or replacements.

I also think that the same holds true for places in areas that are already extremely warm, like Arizona or New Mexico, and are also in places where water is not plentiful at all. There are also changes to the sorts of crops that we grow across the country that could alleviate future problems. Like it or not, and I certainly don’t like it, but govt subsidies of certain crops are a reality right now. Perhaps the govt could start subsidizing crops that grow better in drier, warmer areas. Rice would be a crop that I think we should get away from a little bit. It requires a TON of water to grow.

I personally think this next scenario might be a bit far-fetched, but I think it’s still smart to have some sort of plan if it DOES happen in the future. At some point, whether it’s here or on another continent, climate change will lead to mass migrations. It’s happened before all throughout the history of each continent on this planet to varying degrees. Well, mass migration poses some very serious human rights/safety issues as well major national security issues. For the sake of argument, let’s simply assume that these migrations will generally be in a northern direction, at least in the northern hemisphere. Are we ready as a country to handle massive migrations of people from Mexico, Central and South America into Northern America? Is Canada ready for a potential migration of millions of Americans into its country? It’s hard to plan for something like that if we are still denying that the changes that could force that to happen are being denied.

There are more things that could be done. These are just some of the things that have come to mind in the last 15 minutes. If I were to brood on it more I’m sure there are other things we could do.

Actually, from a pure business standpoint there is another thing we could do. I really don’t know how China feels about this issue in relation to where this country is on the issue, but I think it’s safe to say that most of the developed world is at least partially onboard with the whole climate change thing. Green technologies are being utilized all around the world more than in recent memory, that’s for sure.

Even if the 3% is entirely correct, what would it hurt for the U.S. to be the unquestioned industry leader when it comes to “green” technology? If other countries are going to be using this technology, regardless of whether or not it does anything, shouldn’t the U.S. try to position itself to be the one making money off of manufacturing and selling it? If there was a huge market for snake oil, why wouldn’t you want to sell snake oil?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OK Bert, let’s say you are 100% correct in all you’ve posted here on this thread. What now?[/quote]

Here’s another thing to think about:

The mass migration issue is just part of the larger climate change/national security issue. Unrest in the Middle East can be tied in part to massive heat waves, water shortages, corresponding crop failures and so forth. Even if these issues never directly hit us here in North America, they are already hitting us in various ways around the globe. The last thing we need from a national security standpoint is increasing unrest in the Middle East. If that phenomenon continues to gain momentum due to climate change, and then it happens in places like India or parts of China or whatever, it could pose serious problems to U.S. interests around the world.

Here’s an article that highlights some of the national security concerns tied to climate change. How can we prepare for these growing possibilities in the future if we are in denial about the causes that are leading to these effects?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OK Bert, let’s say you are 100% correct in all you’ve posted here on this thread. What now?[/quote]

I also think that there are probably at least a couple of offices in Cincinnati working on these issues right now.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point is that climate change will lead to different conditions around us then we are used to right now.[/quote]
Ah so it’s not catastrophically dangerous? So I guess now I’m wondering… global warming; so what?

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point is that climate change will lead to different conditions around us then we are used to right now.[/quote]
Ah so it’s not catastrophically dangerous? So I guess now I’m wondering… global warming; so what?[/quote]

I never said it was. What IS catastrophically dangerous is being totally unprepared for whatever changes DO occur. I’ve covered this in my posts to Push.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point is that climate change will lead to different conditions around us then we are used to right now.[/quote]
Ah so it’s not catastrophically dangerous? So I guess now I’m wondering… global warming; so what?[/quote]

I never said it was. What IS catastrophically dangerous is being totally unprepared for whatever changes DO occur. I’ve covered this in my posts to Push.[/quote]
My apologies then. You must realize the number of people out there spouting how humans can increase the global temperature at the drop of a hat by drastic amounts which will result in like the end of the world. It’s highly sensationalized, and it pisses me off. The average surface temperature is rising whether we like it or not, no matter what we do. I really don’t know what kind of big time preparations are necessary though. I don’t think the oceans are going to sneak up on anyone or anything if rising water levels are what we’re worried about.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point is that climate change will lead to different conditions around us then we are used to right now.[/quote]
Ah so it’s not catastrophically dangerous? So I guess now I’m wondering… global warming; so what?[/quote]

I never said it was. What IS catastrophically dangerous is being totally unprepared for whatever changes DO occur. I’ve covered this in my posts to Push.[/quote]
My apologies then. You must realize the number of people out there spouting how humans can increase the global temperature at the drop of a hat by drastic amounts which will result in like the end of the world. It’s highly sensationalized, and it pisses me off. The average surface temperature is rising whether we like it or not, no matter what we do. I really don’t know what kind of big time preparations are necessary though. I don’t think the oceans are going to sneak up on anyone or anything if rising water levels are what we’re worried about.[/quote]

If you get bent out of shape by people spouting off shit that is just as ignorant or as misinformed as some of the stuff I hear on the opposite end of the spectrum (the dinosaur thing? really csulli? I’ve interacted with you enough around this website to know you’re smarter than that!) then you only have yourself to blame. Conservativedog is pretty much off my radar for that very reason. Why waste your time arguing with someone whose views are that outlandish in any direction?

I think education about the issue at hand will simply make whatever preparations there are to be made easier to identify when they do crop up. Like I said to Push, it may be as simple as changing where we build future housing developments and that sort of thing. Maybe Phoenix isn’t the best place to move to, maybe we should repair the levees around cities sitting below sea-level NOW instead of twenty years from now. Maybe you should take that job in Montana instead of New Mexico. Maybe that house going up on the side of a cliff in Malibu should be paying much higher insurance rates than what is called for right now. Maybe we should seriously change the way that we maintain our national forests and the dead growth accumulating in them now rather than three or four election cycles from now. Maybe the federal govt shouldn’t subsidize a crop that needs massive amounts of water to grow. Maybe we SHOULD invest more money in green technology instead of oil refining techniques.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point is that climate change will lead to different conditions around us then we are used to right now.[/quote]
Ah so it’s not catastrophically dangerous? So I guess now I’m wondering… global warming; so what?[/quote]

I never said it was. What IS catastrophically dangerous is being totally unprepared for whatever changes DO occur. I’ve covered this in my posts to Push.[/quote]
My apologies then. You must realize the number of people out there spouting how humans can increase the global temperature at the drop of a hat by drastic amounts which will result in like the end of the world. It’s highly sensationalized, and it pisses me off. The average surface temperature is rising whether we like it or not, no matter what we do. I really don’t know what kind of big time preparations are necessary though. I don’t think the oceans are going to sneak up on anyone or anything if rising water levels are what we’re worried about.[/quote]

Also, the impending doom crowd are the people that I like to call “alarmists”. They really aren’t representative of the climate change “believers” for lack of a better word. I can’t remember now if it was the Forbes article from earlier in the thread or something else, but I remember reading an article in which the author basically rejected the science community’s near-consensus view on climate change because a lot of the scientists surveyed did not believe in a climate change crisis.

That is misleading and I feel is very typical of the anti-climate change crowd. Many scientists do not believe that we currently face a crisis, but that does not mean that we will NEVER face a crisis of some sort and it certainly does not mean that climate change caused by humans is not occurring right this very second. But the Forbes-type articles see this and then try to play it up as if the science community doesn’t believe climate change is occurring at all.

Whether or not we will ever reach a crisis point is impossible to know at this stage. But I think it is safe to say that we WILL reach a crisis point if we simply do nothing at all and act as if climate change is a complete falsehood. THAT is the crisis we face, really. The willful denial of the issue is the impending crisis.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
the dinosaur thing? really csulli? I’ve interacted with you enough around this website to know you’re smarter than that![/quote]
Haha come on doesn’t that make sense? I mean the point was just about levels of CO2 in the atmosphere that did a perfectly good job of sustaining life on Earth. Dinosaurs could not have functioned in such a way as to be THAT dissimilar from life today (and like I mentioned there are still organisms alive today that overlapped with them).

You can shorten the data to go back to the Mesozoic Era where the first mammals arose. CO2 ppm was still a couple thousand back then and they got along fine. And as humans, we are the most adaptable of them all.

Your ideas on global warming aren’t what I had imagined. There’s probably no harm in doing whatever you think we need to do, and I have always maintained that it is irrelevant whether you believe humans are the cause of global warming or not, because it’s happening either way.

It’s the people who want to go fucking Gestapo on carbon emissions that are a nuisance.

Although that being said, everyone eventually supports an energy solution. There is after all only a finite amount of petroleum to burn through.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
the dinosaur thing? really csulli? I’ve interacted with you enough around this website to know you’re smarter than that![/quote]
Haha come on doesn’t that make sense? I mean the point was just about levels of CO2 in the atmosphere that did a perfectly good job of sustaining life on Earth. Dinosaurs could not have functioned in such a way as to be THAT dissimilar from life today (and like I mentioned there are still organisms alive today that overlapped with them).

You can shorten the data to go back to the Mesozoic Era where the first mammals arose. CO2 ppm was still a couple thousand back then and they got along fine. And as humans, we are the most adaptable of them all.

Your ideas on global warming aren’t what I had imagined. There’s probably no harm in doing whatever you think we need to do, and I have always maintained that it is irrelevant whether you believe humans are the cause of global warming or not, because it’s happening either way.

It’s the people who want to go fucking Gestapo on carbon emissions that are a nuisance.

Although that being said, everyone eventually supports an energy solution. There is after all only a finite amount of petroleum to burn through.[/quote]

I still support limiting carbon emissions by as much as possible. I do NOT think it makes sense to enact Draconian regulations that harm the ability of American businesses to compete on a global level, especially given that the emissions from China dwarf ours. However, that also does not mean that we should let businesses run free with their carbon emissions. I support incentives to change, rather than punishments.

I also think that there are a lot of companies that have seen the writing on the wall and are setting themselves up well for the future by trying to lead the way with green technology. Google is a prime example. I’m not sure about the details, but I do believe that they are already producing all of their own energy onsite in Mountain View with some sort of miniature nuclear reactor or something like that.

In terms of the overall economy’s health, I don’t think it can hurt at all and will probably be better for it in the long run if we begin to invest in more green technology, especially if we understand that there is a monetary AND an environmental profit to be made from this. Even if that means incentivizing these changes at the expense of companies from industries like the oil industry. It may not be good for individual companies or specific industries, but in general it WILL be good for the country to further explore as many green technologies as we can. It will be the companies and industries who stand to lose from the country’s gain as a whole that will fight the hardest, and THAT is where a lot of these anti-climate change studies and so forth come from.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

other than stating your opinion you stated ZERO fact . This statement would only be true if IN FACT you could prove Carbon was not the Culprit . It would make sense to tax that which does the most harm . The biggest problem I could see would be like America’s environmental policies ,it self . It could and would put some American Industries and Businesses at a price disadvantage
[/quote]

I never made the contention that AGW existed. No one has conclusively proven that it does exist.

Heck - if you throw out the lies, the fudged numbers, and the race to make the data support the hypothesis, the science community hasn’t even made a decent attempt at a good, inconclusive guess.

I’m really not going to put much faith into what you think you can see.