What he didn’t mention is that three of the authors involved in the JACC review article were members of the committee which drew up the 2005 Dietary Guidelines for Americans. In fact, one of them, Janet King, was the chair of that committee. So, they have been objective enough to revisit the evidence and come to a different conclusion.
I had read, some years ago, and can’t remember the source, that Vince was an alcoholic. That may have been more of a factor in his decline.
Elite world class athletes including wrestlers, gymnasts, weightlifters and sprinters who averaged about 9% bodyfat and trained about 3 hours a day have been found to a) maintain nitrogen balance on .7 g/lb bodyweight, b) convert ALL protein above .85 g/lb bodyweight into glucose during that day and c) to convert all protein above 1.00 g/lb bodyweight into ammonia. At above .85, some of the additional protein is yielded Urea and some yielded ammonia which reduces performance. That means that if you are 9% bodyfat and train 3 hours a day at a world class level there is no benefit of protein above .85 g/lb bodyweight that can’t be gained by taking in carbs instead, and there ARE some negative issues related to performance and strength.
That is all based on them eating maintenance calories. It is possible that protein above that could improve nitrogen balance in a calorie deficit.
3 Likes
Saturated fat can not be the mechanistic cause of heart lesions. Heart lesions begin with glycosylated and oxidized fatty acids, and saturated fats ore the least oxidizable and glycosylated fatty acids. They do not carry oxygen free radicals. polyunsaturated fatty acids such as corn and soybean oil are the most prone to carrying oxygen free radicals to endothelial linings. Triglycerides are build almost exclusively on fructose and alcohol, and glycosylation of triglycerides and fatty acids is due largely to excess glucose.
Cholesterol is an indicator of chronic inflammation. The body elevated cholesterol levels as a mechanism of healing endothelial damage. Oxidized and glycosylated ldl (built on polyunsaturated fatty acids) can’t get back into the liver because they are mal-shaped. So it is precisely the cholesterol build on unsaturated fats that raises LDL. Statins only reduce non-oxidized and non-glycosylated (harmless) LDL.
Only when arterial scarring has already been caused by glycosylated and oxidized LDL does excess cholesterol start to cause fatty atherosclerosis. Based on these mechanisms it is most likely that there are two categories of people-those who have low inflammation and lack arterial scarring for whom saturated fat is not an instigator, and those who have already developed chronic inflammation and arterial scarring from other causes for whom saturated fat now can contribute to blockages.
If you’ve had a heart attack or a scan showing blockages, saturated fat might start to cause problems, but for as many people who have heart attacks and were eating high saturated fat, there are people who never got endothelial lesions because they avoided high omega-6 oils and fructose, and general oxidative and glycosylative stress.
It is important to also understand that cellular protein (meat, fish, fowl) can be very inflammation provoking in the percentage of the population that tends toward high uric acid. Of course, this inflammation from purines in meat will be associated with saturated fat since saturated fat is most commonly consumed with cellular protein.
1 Like
Given that most bodybuilding/powerlifting diets (I’m not educated on other sport diets that don’t require excessive muscles, so I’ll leave these alone) seem to settle around 1g/lb BW, I gotta ask for sources on this one.
1 Like
I’ll try to dig it up tomorrow. I’ve posted it on this site a few times over the last 10 years and I’ve been off site for a year or so.
1 Like
Keep in mind, I said if total calories were not sub-maintenance.
1 Like
Copy
I look forward to it. I noticed you’ve posted the Vertical Diet a couple times, which I’ve read through and understand they recommend as follows:
I just hadn’t heard anything about excess protein contributing to decreased performance. Happy to discuss when you have time.
1.2-2.0 g/kg would be 108-180 g for a 200 pound weight training athlete.
The numbers I cited as optimal were .7-.85 g per POUND which would be 140-170 grams for a 200 pound athlete. The upper end are basically the same.
1 Like
Ammonia rises with protein intake in healthy individuals. Effects of a high protein diet and liver disease in an in silico model of human ammonia metabolism | Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling | Full Text.
That alters blood pH. It has been proven to reduce endurance in mice, but I’m looking for a human study on that.
1 Like
The cholesterol discussion is fascinating to me. What would you do with someone who has already found themselves in a pro-inflammatory state with high cholesterol? Same steps as you would have taken to prevent it?
This is now an important question for me. I have genetically high uric acid which lead to 3-4 gout flair ups over the last 12 years. Reading more literature on that I have found that high Uric Acid can produce all kinds of inflammation and probably explains a lot of my families health issued (type II diabetes et. al) on my dad’s side.
My #1 thought would be to reduce the inflammation by elimination. High uric acid’s primary dietary cause is fructose, which I have mostly eliminated (I’d stick with 25 grams/day fructose limit though a little more around training is probably good). I’ve dropped all corn oil and soybean oil which are pro-inflammatory. I also gave up alcohol 21 years ago. I also cut non-alcoholic beer because it raises purine levels that can raise uric acid. My Uric acid levels are low now, with the exception of when I am in a calorie deficit and training hard. Caloric deficits and hard resistance training can both raise Uric acid which makes it harder to loose weight including hypothyroidism and insulin resistance so I am working hard to keep the U.A. low during the caloric deficit.
Since sugar (primarily high fructose) and omega-6 oils are the most inflammatory foods, I would get them out first, and try to turn the corner on inflammation. Well, that leaves 4 things to eat; glucose polymers/starch, protein, saturated fat, monounsatured fat. I suppose dairy would be there too since it has sugar but no fructose.
Now I already know that I have sinus inflammation from wheat, corn, oats and beans and lactose.
So remember, cholesterol is a sign of inflammation, and can actually help with minor inflammation, or with early stage inflammation. LDL’s role is largely to HEAL microtrauma.
The other thing that can cause chronic inflammation is poor sleep because it raises cortisol, raises night time insulin needs, and insulin blocks the night time secretion of growth hormone which heals microtrauma.
So YES, I would look to get cholesterol down as a marker of inflammation by reducing sugar, omega-6, and foods that you may have sensitivities too (in my case wheat, corn starch, oats, milk, legumes). So deal with inflammation at the root always. The cholesterol that is built on Omega-6 and fructose is the most harmful anyway since it carries free radicals and glucose to sites of inflammation, and since it has a hard time getting back into the liver to get recycled.
I’d try to reduce cholesterol directly if I had evidence of atherosclerosis but then inflammation reduction should still be the primary strategy for improved health. Statins may actually reduce cholesterol by reducing the inflammation that triggers its production.
3 Likes
Just want to make it clear, when you do the conversions I’m saying that 170 grams a day@200 is about optimal for physical performance and development on maintenance or higher calories if you are very lean and train very hard. At 170+ there are reasons to consider not adding more protein because it will raise ammonia levels.
Plus there is substantial research that increasing leucine intake and pulsing protein doses improves nitrogen retention at lower levels. 5 grams of leucine such as what is in a serving of Surge is a powerful anabolic signal that can replace much larger doses of inferior proteins, and pulsing fast absorbing protein every 3-4 hours produces greater overall anabolic signals than having larger, slower digesting and absorbing doses. Larger, slow doses, such as “dinner” or something like Metabolic Drive that has slow absorbing casein are best used for the last meal of the day before sleep to create an amino acid pool so that leucine can do it’s job the next day. Slower protein sources can prevent catabolism at night.
Fast, high leucine sources trigger anabolism, but there can be a rebound effect beyond about 4 hours where muscles will “spill” amino acids if there isn’t another pulse of leucine, or a slower food source to block the catabolic rebound. It’s not a great enough rebound to undo the anabolic effects, but I prefer not to use fast protein pulsing right before bed because there can be a mild catabolic rebound when you are asleep.
Also keep in mind that people who train and take androgens have the androgen receptor activated and will have elevated protein synthesis all the time, and also have the cortisol receptor in their muscle cells blocked largely, so they are less likely to have catabolic periods of the day.
I’m 5-8" 210 and 20% bodyfat at 51 years old. I do want to get down to where I’m floating in the 12-16% range, but I think that 120-150 grams a day is definitely topping out benefits (150 in a deficit and 120 at maintenance) with protein pulsing strategies and fast leucine sources plus just enough insulin.
The more protein you eat the more you oxidize. In theory, 5 grams of added protein per day would build 20 pounds of muscle in a year. So you consume say 140 grams a day, your body breaks down 135 grams (either from food or breaking down proteins in the body) and turns it into either glucose or ketones plus urea or ammonia. In theory, you could add 5 grams of protein and your body could just recycle what it breaks down and put it back into muscles every day, but for for some reason our bodies prefer to oxidize some of the protein that is broken down rather than just recycle the amino acids. It probably is because the liver can turn protein into glucose on demand if the brain needs it, so it is a nice flexible glucose source.
2 Likes
I was recently recommended to follow something along these lines by @Tim_Patterson. Currently I am following the Pulse Feast and aiming for protein intake at around 200g/day (at 220lbs ~18-20% BF).
You are quite well versed in these subjects, can I ask what it is you do for work?
2 Likes
According to a study I’ve read, protein intake is not necessary for muscle growth. In general, if active men get anything from their diet on a daily basis, it’s a lot of protein. Half of that quantity (0.5 grams per pound) of protein would be more than enough in place of 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. The primary driver of muscle growth is to promote cellular growth at the simplest possible level. Then get enough rest. And take in enough protein, calories, and water.
These statements are conflicting as fuck.
4 Likes
What about the concept of gradually increasing protein?
Like when I lift I increase reps to keep the stimulus “working.” Do I need to gradually increase protein over the weeks of my mass gaining cycle?
I read an old Charles Poliquin article and he talked about cycling whey protein. Building up to like 300 grams a day or something crazy when trying to gain.
Then getting off whey and pounding more BCAAs when you were ready to cut.
Male, 33 y.o., 69 in, 143 lbs
1 Like
Ohh right, this is the guy who decided to google 5/3/1, decided it wasn’t for him, then proceeded to follow the advice of random internet pictures instead.
1 Like