How Much Protein Do We Really Need for Muscle Growth?

Training HIT
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Poliquin was also suspected of possibly juicing – we know he was a big advocate for creatine. Both can have negatve affects on “heart health”.

Either way, Poliquin’s history of heart disease to include his family is irrelevant. As MDs, researchers have shown proper diet, training, rest and – if necessary – medications can pretty much eliminate or reduce the risk of familial history of CVD. Example? Dr. Barry Sears’ family history nearly 1:1 with Poliquin…he’s still alive, doing research, writing books and supporting his Zone business. The difference? He probably hasn’t done all the wrong things Poliquin and his family probably did. (We hear the same thing about “our family has a history of obesity (or Type 2 diabetes”…and what is their history? Typically, the wrong choices…)

Fortunately, the creator of the video’s done his research and has a background in science (not human biology) to include statistical analysis…so, I’d say his video is spot on and not biased.

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The usual argument against excessive protein intake is that excessive stimulation of mTor and IGF-1 increases the risk of cancer. Death from heart disease doesn’t fit that theory.

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My family on my dad’s side has a history of heart disease…and none of them followed a high fat/protein diet…the ones that had heart attacks followed a normal balanced way of eating…

My family on my mother’s side has a history of cancer and all of them followed a normal balanced way of eating

Some were heavy and some were thin

So, all those studies on either side of the spectrum don’t really mean anything

I have a sister that lost weight on keto and my other sister lost weight on vegetarianism

I lost weight following Dardens high carb calorie deficit method…found what works for me

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Connect the dots for me. How does creatine have negative effects on the heart?

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There have been a number of good quality scientific studies on various animal and insect species that have looked at the impact of protein on longevity. The results seem to fall into a pattern - many species seem to have a naturally determined protein target, and when provided with a diverse diet, will select foods to hit that protein target. When fed diets below their natural target, they will tend to live longer, but have lower reproductive success (perhaps a proxy for reduced fitness or robustness). When fed a diet above their protein target, reproductive success is better, but life span is reduced (perhaps due to accelerated aging). It seems that the natural protein target is evolution’s answer to what is optimal from the standpoint of natural selection.

A pair of zoologists who have conducted studies like this have attempted to extend these ideas to human diets, and have written a book with the title “Eat Like the Animals”. They believe that the natural protein target for humans lies in the 15-25% range. They would recommend the higher end of the range for children (still developing), pregnant females, and older adults, and the lower end of the range for those in middle age.

This work, of course, is fairly new, so take it with a grain of salt. But it does suggest to me that there are tradeoffs involved with protein. My grandmother lived to be 100, but the last 7 or 8 years of her life were nothing to be envied. Ancel Keyes lived a long time too, but some of the pictures I’ve seen suggest he might have ended up pretty frail and vulnerable. Personally, I’d rather go out at 90, being fairly robust, than to linger on in a frail and vulnerable state for another 10 years.

With regard to the video…

  • I’m not a big fan of arguing diet using anecdotal evidence, even when you have 23+ anecdotes. That is a still a pretty small sample.

As more general observations:

  • When talking about diet and health, you likely have an interaction between individual genetics and dietary choices. If you are born with gene mutations which predispose you to metabolic syndrome and T2 diabetes, you may respond differently when given a diet high in refined carbohydrates than someone who has a more robust pancreas.
  • Heart disease and cancer remain major causes of death in modern society, and diet influences your risk of each. But other lifestyle factors, like stress, sleep, and physical activity levels also play a role. And for cancer, environmental exposures to the residues of modern industrial activity are clearly also a factor. This makes it pretty hard to sort through individual outcomes to draw conclusions about what kind of diet is optimal.
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Creatine absolutely does not have negative effects on heart health. Its therapeutic benefits for heart patients, are actually well-documented. For example:
The Evolving Applications of Creatine Supplementation: Could Creatine Improve Vascular Health? - PMC
“In summary, throughout this review we have highlighted studies that have not only shown potential benefit of using creatine to improve vasculature function, but have also elucidated the potential of creatine to alleviate the various factors that contribute to the development of CVD”

Awful lot of wiggle words in there. Dealing with facts would be better.

And I’m saying his video is exaggerated, if not deliberately misleading, and blatantly biased from the get-go. Just like, in his second video, he casually dismisses Zyzz’s rampant anabolic steroid use at age 22, neglects to mention his well-documented use of DNP (arguably the single most dangerous drug a bodybuilder can use) and skips over his well-known cocaine use, but still manages to point the finger at high protein intake as a significant factor in the kid’s heart attack.

The second bodybuilder he mentions, Daniele Pozzi, is also discussed inaccurately. The video guy claims the bodybuilder’s coach said he couldn’t get Daniele to eat any carbs at all. What the coach was actually quoted as saying was: “He was on zero carbs for a long time and he took substances that can be detrimental to his heart, yes in short, various products.” But Mr. Plant Chompers just wants to focus on the high protein intake.

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Another issue with it, is that he picked those 23 anecdotes. There are surely people who died early that followed and advocated for the high vegetable diet, and people that lived a long time that followed and advocated the high protein diet.

I can pick 23 dead people some smokers and some non smokers, and come up with a chart making it seem like smokers live longer. That would be nonsense, just like the video above.

FWIW, I think eating fruits and vegetables is good for health. If your lifting and trying to put on muscle or keep your muscle while losing fat, it seems a reasonable amount of protein is useful. I make a goal to be between 150g and 200g of protein (I am 210 lbs currently). I find I can do that pretty easily (I don’t have to eat the diet in a muscle mag).

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His ability to handwave away inconvenient but probably the largest determinants that contribute to disease and death is astounding.

“Family history? Pish-posh! That Man Used Creatine!”

I should add though, that post MI, and under conditions specific to me, my cardiologist did warn me away from creatine. Reasoning was pretty simple- I’m taking a diuretic to reduce cell volume and water retention, and creatine would be contraindicated, as it increases cell volume and fluid retention.

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All these health advocates are dying young.

All my optometrists ALWAYS wore glasses.

My physical therapists were ALWAYS folks who had surgeries in the past.

Geez: it’s like these folks got into these fields because they had a vested interest in it or something.

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An interesting and yet unexplored facet of this conversation:

No one ever told me a high protein diet would increase lifespan.

Bench press, yes. Muscle mass, yes.

Lifespan- no.

Now some may say that. I’m ignorant to the entirety of statements and attributions made to the merits of high protein, and specifically meat based.

So, arguing that some other thing is better than an entirely different thing being utilized for different reasons is kinda a moot point.

But I really doubt that anybody was following Vince Girondas recommendations with the idea that they would be a spry and stately old gentleman.

People do these things to lift big weight and have big muscle.

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Most psychiatrists and phycologists I’ve known are kind of nuts themselves. So what does this say about people who obsess on building muscles ? , ha ha !
Scott

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The only problem is that the so called “Mediterranean diet” doesn’t have anything common with the actual foods traditionally eaten at that region. And, by the way, there are so many countries over there with so much difference in their food intake that you can’t say that all people living there eat the same type of food. Finally, none of them traditionally emphasized grains, legumes, vegetables or fruits over meats, fats, dairy and other protein and fat rich foods. You can read three good books from Sally Morell Fallon on this subject where she exposed those myths: “Nourishing Traditions”, “Nourishing Diets”, “Nourishing Fats”

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Having gone through all those discussions, I have one simple question: are you guys pretty sure that your bodies work as a 100%-efficient furnace when you put 1000 kcal (or whatever the number) in and get 1000 kcal of energy output? Same with other nutrients: proteins, carbs, fats. Do you want to say that nothing is lost in digestion, absorption and assimilation; that all of your foods are digested easily and fully? If so, you are lucky bastards. I am 44 now and only now I fully understand what great Vince Gironda said long time ago is that “bodybuilding is 80% nutrition”: you can’t grow having poor digestion and assimilation of food, and when you digestive system is working properly, you don’t have a lot of food to grow muscle. Gironda used to say that he reached a peak in his own form eating just two meals a day of steak and eggs and they were not huge portions. I can say for myself that a lot of carbs in my diet (irrespective of their form, and I don’t take any supplements at all) make me literally sick, bloated and get me a lot of digestive issues. On the contrary, proteins and fats nourish me. The type and amount of proteins and fats makes a difference for me too: some of them are digested easily, some are not. Again, calorie from carbs and calorie from proteins and fats are different (at least, how my body reacts to them): low calorie, but high carb diet make me bloated; on the contrary, high calorie, high protein / fat diet makes me slimmer, even if I eat more.

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That’s actually a kind of massive question, with a physiology textbook sized answer.

There is absolutely nothing simple about it. People like John Berrardi get their PhD to be able to accurately answer that kind of question.

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My body is so awesome I get 110% energy output per calorie consumed.

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My mrs great grandfather drank whiskey every day, he smoked cigars every day, he ate a lot of canned food (including canned pies) and he lived to 107.

So on that evidence I’m going to take up smoking (I already drink a lot of scotch).

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If you want to talk pre diabetes and T2 diabetes, it’s not thought to be dietary fat, but excess calories and more from excess carbs. (it’s the conversion of carbs to lipids that is the issue) Excess as in enough to cause weight gain. Before anyone hollers, you have to read the research. The worst fat that is ‘stored’ ectopically (in organs) is palmitate, excess carbs, beyond what can be stored as glycogen, are converted to trigs, the key one is palmitate. When excess palmitate is stored in cells without enough mono fats, ceramides are created and those are causal for insulin resistance and pancreatic beta cell sensing issues.

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From Classic X questions

Ellington Darden PhD

How Much Protein?

Dr. Darden, in the last Classic X you mentioned that ingesting 300 grams of protein may be injurious to your kidneys. What about a man of 170 pounds who lifts weights? Is 170 to 200 grams is too much, let alone say from 200 to 220 grams of protein? Just how much protein does a man or woman need to build muscle?

Charlie

You need a lot less than most bodybuilders believe. My research shows that the U.S Department of Agriculture’s recommendation for protein is on target. They recommend 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day. Thus, at 170 pounds, or 77.3 kilograms, you would require 61.84 grams of protein a day (77.3 x .8 = 61.84).

But wait a minute, you must be saying, I want to build muscle. How much more do I need?

To answer this question, you have to go back to the USDA’s original research and determine how they did their calculations. First, they established a minimum need for a reference person who weighed 70 kilograms. Then, they subjected this data to the bell-shaped curve and appropriate plus or minus standard deviations.

The minimum protein requirement for the reference person was 23.8 grams daily. This meant that 50 percent of the population would have their needs satisfied by 23.8 grams or less of protein per day. And 98 percent of the population would have their protein needs met by 30.8 grams of protein a day.

Since most people do not consume ideal compositions of protein foods at each meal, the USDA added another 30 percent increment to the figure. The protein requirement per day rose to 40 grams per day, or 0.57 grams per kilogram of body weight.

And finally, just to sure that there was no question about the rationale, the figure was boosted from 0.57 per kilogram of body weight to 0.8. According to standard deviations, the 0.8 figure was twice as much as 98 percent of the population actually needed. The requirements of athletes and fitness-minded people were also considered in determining the guide number.

So, Charlie, even if you are a high-intensity bodybuilder, it’s highly unlikely that at a body weight of 170 pounds (77.3 kilograms), you would require more than 61.84 grams of protein per day. Remember, the 0.8-gram figure is not the minimum amount, it’s double minimum. Even if you fall at the upper end of the 98-percentile range, all you would have to do is consume a little bit more protein (not massive amounts) — which you probably already do. Nutritional studies reveal that men in the United States average more than 100 grams of protein a day.

Also, you should understand that only 22 percent of muscle is actually protein. Most of muscle is composed of water. It takes only a small amount of extra protein to produce a pound of muscle, particularly since so little muscular growth takes place within a week. Your 61.84 grams of protein a day guideline will be more than enough for you to build several pounds of muscle per week.

I know that for more than 40 years, almost everyone interested in bodybuilding has been brainwashed — primarily by the manufacturers of protein supplements — to believe that people who want to build muscle require massive amounts of protein each day. Even a few scientists somewhat and reluctantly agree. But the vast majority of nutritional research shows that massive amounts of protein are not necessary or desirable to build large muscles.

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Research on this topic has shown very small amounts of protein are required for muscle protein synthesis, especially when the source is leucine rich.

However, this is a myopic view when it comes to structuring a well formulated diet. Because you are left with a nutritional void to fill once you apportion your meagre protein needs.

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That is an interesting paper.

I’m having a little trouble reconciling their findings with other studies that I remember reading. In particular, I thought DNL only got up-regulated significantly when your carbohydrate intake started to exceed your total calorie needs (i.e., massive overfeeding). Under other circumstances (eating at or below maintenance calories, DNL rates were pretty modest). In the study you posted, the subjects were actually in a calorie deficit, circumstances which should have greatly limited DNL.

I feel like I’m missing something…