How Much Do You Know About Christianity?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

My mind is never made up. It is open to new arguments and will consider solid evidence. In previous threads, I’ve made it clear that when I’m proven wrong on a point, I will admit it and take on the new point.

Most atheists are not people who have hardened their hearts against their religion, they are people who have opened their hearts and minds to other ways of thinking. Every atheist I’ve met wants to debate and try to prove the existance or non-existance of god, whereas most of the Christians I know “have their minds made up” and will do a lot to avoid evidence.

So once again, my mind is not made up. Anything I believe right now is subject to change if it does not fit reality, and you can show me how it doesn’t.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Oleena,

From your above post it seems your mind is made up. So why start such a thread (which is loaded from the start), and just believe what you believe? Why do people need to affirm their sensibilities with other people? If you are an atheist, then so be it. At the end of the day, you have to be happy with you. You bring your second guessing here in this thread to prove what? Just be happy you are an atheist and call it a day already. [/quote]

62

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Oleena,

From your above post it seems your mind is made up. So why start such a thread (which is loaded from the start), and just believe what you believe? Why do people need to affirm their sensibilities with other people? If you are an atheist, then so be it. At the end of the day, you have to be happy with you. You bring your second guessing here in this thread to prove what? Just be happy you are an atheist and call it a day already.

Probably because debating religion is so much fun. You get such great reactions from people.

No, obviously it’s because she’s insecure in her atheist faith. [/quote]

She is the one posting the actual quotes from the bible. How is it she is insecure? Seems more and more that people who are overly religious just never want to try and use facts to prove thier beliefs to be correct. Its always ‘oh its just gods will’.

64

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Pushme and IrishSteel, I am going to give you a chance to convert me back to Christianity right now…[/quote]

While this wasn’t directed at me, one thing I won’t try to do is convert people on a company’s forum, in the PWI forum. It’s a bit rude. Though it hasn’t stopped your…evangelizing.

65

[quote]Buff HardBack wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

No, obviously it’s because she’s insecure in her atheist faith.

She is the one posting the actual quotes from the bible. How is it she is insecure? .[/quote]

You mean to say she’s posting actual quotes from the Bible? Wow. You got me there…you’re right, she must be truly secure in her atheist faith. I mean, after all, she went out of her way to create a thread based on complete nonsense to try to “debunk” something she allegedly doesn’t believe in. Wonder why she’s do this? Is she trying to “save” Christians? LOL!

66

Haha. This is hillarious. The entire point of being atheist is that it’s not a faith, and therefore my mind is constantly open to new ideas.

You have a funny way of putting it, but of course I’m “insecure in my atheist faith”. I’m “insecure” in the way that scientists are “insecure” with any hypothesis. Until the end of the experiment you don’t really know.

Well, actually we do know that you turn into compost. We have trouble imagining that there is an end to our own thoughts, a time when we will cease to exist. Sometimes we make up stories to make it easier on ourselves. I want to make sure that I’m not subscribing to something out of fear, and that it really exists.

I would say it’s harder to be an atheist than a god-fearer. You have to be willing to be wrong and you have to be willing to face the idea of non-existance.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Oleena,

From your above post it seems your mind is made up. So why start such a thread (which is loaded from the start), and just believe what you believe? Why do people need to affirm their sensibilities with other people? If you are an atheist, then so be it. At the end of the day, you have to be happy with you. You bring your second guessing here in this thread to prove what? Just be happy you are an atheist and call it a day already.

Probably because debating religion is so much fun. You get such great reactions from people.

No, obviously it’s because she’s insecure in her atheist faith. [/quote]

67

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Far be it from me to get “all psychological” on my jolly ol’ T-Nation friends (almost everyone of you lads and lassies) and enemies (Schwahzefer sp?) but when I see a post like the lovely Miss Olee and her comrades-in-arms on this thread I just have to think that somewhere, somehow in the past she had some kind of experience that really caused the bitterness volcano to erupt.

An untimely death of a loved one? A legalistic denomination that trapped you with a bunch of man made practices and traditions (I know all about this from first hand experience)? A convincing effort by oh say…evolutionists that the myth of creation is a sordid plot to infect mankind with an unsubstantiated mysticism?

OR

Is it a desire to be in the cool guys clique? The one that thinks it is so chic to bash Christianity? When you’re in this clique it’s only the Christians that have fucked up the world.

“Muslims need more understanding.”

“Satanists are benevolent humanists.”

"Buddhists are so “enlightened”.

“Leave the Hindu alone; let me worship his cow, it’s his culture, man.”

And on and on.

“But Christianity is sooooooo passe and I want to be on the cutting edge…”

When I see folks doing this, I think, “What sheep! What lemmings! They so want to be perceived as cool or intellectual or whatever.”

Grow a set, people, and quit allowing yourself to think “whatever” just so you can “fit in”. Sheesh.[/quote]

One would think that, in a country of 70%+ Christians, it’s you who’s trying to “fit in”. But here you are arguing the opposite.

Do cliches rank above hard evidence in your world?

68

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Far be it from me to get “all psychological” on my jolly ol’ T-Nation friends (almost everyone of you lads and lassies) and enemies (Schwahzefer sp?) but when I see a post like the lovely Miss Olee and her comrades-in-arms on this thread I just have to think that somewhere, somehow in the past she had some kind of experience that really caused the bitterness volcano to erupt.

An untimely death of a loved one? A legalistic denomination that trapped you with a bunch of man made practices and traditions (I know all about this from first hand experience)? A convincing effort by oh say…evolutionists that the myth of creation is a sordid plot to infect mankind with an unsubstantiated mysticism?

OR

Is it a desire to be in the cool guys clique? The one that thinks it is so chic to bash Christianity? When you’re in this clique it’s only the Christians that have fucked up the world.

“Muslims need more understanding.”

“Satanists are benevolent humanists.”

"Buddhists are so “enlightened”.

“Leave the Hindu alone; let me worship his cow, it’s his culture, man.”

And on and on.

“But Christianity is sooooooo passe and I want to be on the cutting edge…”

When I see folks doing this, I think, “What sheep! What lemmings! They so want to be perceived as cool or intellectual or whatever.”

Grow a set, people, and quit allowing yourself to think “whatever” just so you can “fit in”. Sheesh.[/quote]

I’d be worried if they weren’t bashing Christianity. That, and if Hollywood stars suddenly start converting to Christianity.

69

My god-fearing friends have been a huge support in life and I love them dearly. Some of the most intelligent, highly educated ones have secretly begun to confide in me that they are questioning things as well, and it doesn’t make sense to them. But due to their family’s involvement they are not going to stop going through the motions.

Nothing terrible happened. I hit 14, and started asking the question. When I first proposed it, I really thought it was just another question they would have a good answer for, like all the other questions I’d asked over the years.

Of course I am going to feel bitter. It’s like being 15 before you realize that Santa doesn’t exist. What a disappointment, waste, and you feel like a fool. Then, ontop of that, you learn about the anthropological and sociological purposes of the religion and you really wish it wasn’t in effect.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Far be it from me to get “all psychological” on my jolly ol’ T-Nation friends (almost everyone of you lads and lassies) and enemies (Schwahzefer sp?) but when I see a post like the lovely Miss Olee and her comrades-in-arms on this thread I just have to think that somewhere, somehow in the past she had some kind of experience that really caused the bitterness volcano to erupt.

[/quote]

70

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I hate using the term atheist to dedcribe myself because there is so much hate for the word, and we are generally viewed as a cold-hearted, sarcastic, snobbish crowd by god-fearing religions. Many god-fearing people think that we will not even begin to consider Christianity because the devil has hardened our hearts and that’s just the way it is. But I’m forced to use that word because I saw a comedy skit a while back that perfectly describes what I think happens when you die (basically, you go back into the earth and become fertilizer and that’s that).

I used to really love being a Christian. It took me 8 years of not getting answers from the people I’d viewed as religious authorities to even say that I didn’t believe in it anymore. I wanted it to be true in the way that you want your favorite fairy tale to come to life and suck you up and take you away from the cruel world.

I still secretly wish I could find someone to answer the question I posted above in a way that is neither contradictory to the written word, nor a slap-stick “God knows best”.

[/quote]

^^I know enough to use my knowledge as a weapon to punch holes in the Christian faith. I attack the overly faithful and call them out on their hypocrisy. The Clan (JWs) says that Satan has blinded me and hardened my heart. That I’m now part of the “World”. DAMN RIGHT. [iHe[/i] has showed me how to be free. How to live life to the fullest. In His world, the sky is the limit. Whatever I set my mind to I can achieve. Why have some when you can indulge? Enjoy drink, enjoy food, enjoy women, everything is mine for the taking. He will not judge me when I expire, but accept me with my flaws and for the way I chose to live my life. We only get one go on this ride and we don’t get our nickel back if we didn’t like the outcome. If I’m damned to hell for eternity, that’s fine. I won’t be alone.

71

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I hate using the term atheist to dedcribe myself because there is so much hate for the word, and we are generally viewed as a cold-hearted, sarcastic, snobbish crowd by god-fearing religions. Many god-fearing people think that we will not even begin to consider Christianity because the devil has hardened our hearts and that’s just the way it is. But I’m forced to use that word because I saw a comedy skit a while back that perfectly describes what I think happens when you die (basically, you go back into the earth and become fertilizer and that’s that).

I used to really love being a Christian. It took me 8 years of not getting answers from the people I’d viewed as religious authorities to even say that I didn’t believe in it anymore. I wanted it to be true in the way that you want your favorite fairy tale to come to life and suck you up and take you away from the cruel world.

I still secretly wish I could find someone to answer the question I posted above in a way that is neither contradictory to the written word, nor a slap-stick “God knows best”.

[/quote]

wow Oleena - It brought me to tears (literally) to read your comments here. I have dealt with so many people over the years that endured some of the worst spiritual abuse and lack of honest responses in the name of Christianity - I am so sorry for that, and I apologize for those who should have known better and taught correctly the faith of Christ. It breaks my heart to hear personal statements like yours.

Your question is obviously born of some heart-wrenching personal experiences and I would love to tell you that everyone gets to go to heaven and live happily ever after. But that is not the case.

We each (with no constraint by original sin - this is important) choose to break the law of God according the truth revealed to us individually and will have to give an account of that choice (and much more) at the judgment (if it were all cut and dried - there would be no judgment day) - i have a quote I like to use - I wonder who will be more surprised, the “christians” who don’t make it into heaven or the “heathens” who do - that takes a bit of explaining - but now I am getting off track to your question.

Would I choose to bring 10 children into the world if I knew 9 of them would end up being punished for their sins for eternity? No, I would rather condemn myself to hell to save all 10 of them - but if that were not allowed by God, I do not believe I could choose to bring them into the world at all.

HOWEVER - do not extrapolate my answer to God and try to make Him into the evil character of this narrative. None of those punished can blame God for their punishment - they did not have to sin and they did not have to reject God as revealed to them - they make their own decisions and bear the consequences of those decisions. He will judge each person individually based on their level of understanding, amount of revealed truth, their willful decisions, their true faith in God and their response to their own level of revealed truth.

I cannot answer for God’s motive in allowing people to live, allowing them to choose and then treating them according to their choices - but it seems that the greater burden lies on the individual not on God - because He has done everything short of violating our free will to make it possible for everyone to go to heaven.

Please understand, I do understand the weight of your heartfelt uncertainty and the powerful emotions behind your question, this answer is based on my feeble understanding and poor ability to communicate the truth.

I hope my answer was clear . . .

72

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Haha. This is hillarious. The entire point of being atheist is that it’s not a faith, and therefore my mind is constantly open to new ideas.[/quote]

You’re so confused I’m not even sure where to start. Let’s begin with: faith isn’t the opposite of being “open to new ideas.”

Right - like any faith, doubt is necessary.

One of the dogma’s of your faith is that “YOU” = corporeal body only.

Here’s a way to think about it. “You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.” CS Lewis

If you cannot imagine or dimly sense eternity, perhaps your imaginative faculties are atrophied. Is this something you’re proud of? Or do you want to change this?

Yes, it is FAR more difficult to go with the crowd and mock Christianity.

73

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Oleena wrote:
I spent 14 years as a die hard Christian. During that time I studied the Bible with mentors who majored in theology and grew up in Africa as kids of a missionary doctor.

I already did because even as an atheist, I was suprised at a few of these. <–You get better every post lol!

Oh yeah, I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, hardcore of hardcorez. Had to put on the little penguin outfit (I had a bitchin’ red bow tie like Pee-Wee) every day to go to the meetings and what not. Had to walk around telling people that their beliefs were false and that if they didn’t sign up they will be destroyed with Satan while we laugh at their death in our promised land.

They made me read become fluent with the Bible. It really robbed me of having a normal childhood. No Christmas presents, no birthday parties, zip, nada. I was the Damien (The Omen) equivalent when I hit 6 years of age. I had to be free. I lit things on fire during the meetings. I would throw narly fits and pick up chairs or whatever I could pick up and throw it across the room. I was a little porker so physically restraining me was a challenge. I realized I was truly alone when everything around me began to turn to shit, when people of faith suffered relentlessly, when truly good people were getting the shaft. I realized then that anything I do on planet Earth is only accomplished through my hand not His. If anything I’m partial to the teachings of Anton LaVey. Good post though. [/quote]

GB - I am so sorry for your experiences. That is an evil thing to have done to you and those responsible for the twisted teachings of the JW’s will have to answer for all of the lives they have destroyed and the faith they have robbed so many of . . . my heart is broken for you . . . I am truly sorry . . . I really do not know what else to say right now . . .

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:
pushharder wrote:

I’d be worried if they weren’t bashing Christianity. [/quote]

Whoa there Mister! Am I bashing Christians or are the Christians bashing me?

Let’s back up a step- so far I’ve been insulted as a person having my panties in a bunch, it’s been implied that I’m ignorant and cold hearted, and that my mind is made up.

In response, I have done nothing except ask few questions. None of the questions personally insulted anyone. I also did not group all christians as a whole and ascribe them negative traites, such as people have done numerous times with regards to atheists on this thread.

So stop feeling righteously persecuted, because so far that hasn’t happened.

75

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

No, obviously it’s because she’s insecure in her atheist faith.

She is the one posting the actual quotes from the bible. How is it she is insecure? .

You mean to say she’s posting actual quotes from the Bible? Wow. You got me there…you’re right, she must be truly secure in her atheist faith. I mean, after all, she went out of her way to create a thread based on complete nonsense to try to “debunk” something she allegedly doesn’t believe in. Wonder why she’s do this? Is she trying to “save” Christians? LOL!
[/quote]

First off are you actually “Laughing out loud”. I always find that quite entertaining when people do that. Like im arguing with a 15 year old teenager but anyways back on subject. Do you believe that god actually creates miracles on a daily basis? Saving people from diseases or just getting them through life or death situations in general?

77

So if I were to have chosen to remain ignorant to God’s word then I would have got a free pass on the sin thing?

What if I were born in the wild and raised by a pack of wolves, would that change anything?

78

I know this is going to seem weird to you, but I don’t consider CS Lewis a scientific authority on reality.

Also, I was not saying that it is hard to think of eternity. I was saying it is harder to think of there being no eternity. Basically, it’s more difficult to think of nonexistance than of existance simple because we haven’t experienced it.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Haha. This is hillarious. The entire point of being atheist is that it’s not a faith, and therefore my mind is constantly open to new ideas.

You’re so confused I’m not even sure where to start. Let’s begin with: faith isn’t the opposite of being “open to new ideas.”

You have a funny way of putting it, but of course I’m “insecure in my atheist faith”. I’m “insecure” in the way that scientists are “insecure” with any hypothesis. Until the end of the experiment you don’t really know.

Right - like any faith, doubt is necessary.

Well, actually we do know that you turn into compost.

One of the dogma’s of your faith is that “YOU” = corporeal body only.

Here’s a way to think about it. “You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.” CS Lewis

We have trouble imagining that there is an end to our own thoughts, a time when we will cease to exist.

If you cannot imagine or dimly sense eternity, perhaps your imaginative faculties are atrophied. Is this something you’re proud of? Or do you want to change this?

Sometimes we make up stories to make it easier on ourselves. I want to make sure that I’m not subscribing to something out of fear, and that it really exists. I would say it’s harder to be an atheist than a god-fearer. You have to be willing to be wrong and you have to be willing to face the idea of non-existance.

Yes, it is FAR more difficult to go with the crowd and mock Christianity.

[/quote]

79

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
So if I were to have chosen to remain ignorant to God’s word then I would have got a free pass on the sin thing?

What if I were born in the wild and raised by a pack of wolves, would that change anything?[/quote]

Of course it wouldnt. Duh. Just like all the muslims, hindus, toaists, buddhists, us evil atheists, and any other religious group I left out who doesnt believe in christianity. We are all equally fucked.

80

[quote]Oleena wrote:
In Revelations it states that most of the earth will be destroyed in the endtime, and only a very small percentage of all of humanity that ever existed will make it into the kingdom of Heaven.

Now I ask you- if you were going to have 10 children, and you knew from far before the moment that you conceived them that 9 of them were going to CHOOSE TO BURN IN HELL, would you have 10 children?
[/quote]

Am I correct in assuming that you were raised as, or used to be, an Evangelical Protestant? Because Revelation (no S) is generally seen in small-o orthodox Christianity as a book that is to be read allegorically. That goes for a lot of Scripture actually. If you take every word of the Bible literally, then yes, you will have serious problems.

As for who will be saved, that is an issue we can never know, but the idea that the vast majority of people will go to Hell is definitely not the sole or even main Christian interpretation. If you are truly an undecided atheist, the second chapter of the Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus’ “Death on a Friday Afternoon” talks a great deal about the idea of the “massa damnata” and who will be saved. Neuhaus is a conservative Catholic theologian, and he does not sound like a believer in “a well-populated Hell.” I recommend reading the whole book, and I’m not a Catholic.