[quote]pushharder wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Here’s a way to think about it. “You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.” CS Lewis
Powerful. Profound.
[/quote]
Good stuff
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Oleena wrote:
I cannot answer for God’s motive in allowing people to live, allowing them to choose and then treating them according to their choices - but it seems that the greater burden lies on the individual not on God - because He has done everything short of violating our free will to make it possible for everyone to go to heaven.
.[/quote]
This is basically reiterating my question. God knew which way each person would choose before he even created them. He did not simply “allow them to live once they were already in existnace” he ineffect gave birth to them. Allow them to live sounds compassionate, but when you really take the entire situation into consideration, it’s like allowing a rabbid puppy to live. What does free will matter if he already knew which direction we would choose to go before he created us?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
So if I were to have chosen to remain ignorant to God’s word then I would have got a free pass on the sin thing?
What if I were born in the wild and raised by a pack of wolves, would that change anything?[/quote]
are you asking me about my beliefs or was this in response to something else?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Oh yeah, I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, hardcore of hardcorez. Had to put on the little penguin outfit (I had a bitchin’ red bow tie like Pee-Wee) every day to go to the meetings and what not. Had to walk around telling people that their beliefs were false and that if they didn’t sign up they will be destroyed with Satan while we laugh at their death in our promised land.
They made me read become fluent with the Bible. It really robbed me of having a normal childhood. No Christmas presents, no birthday parties, zip, nada. I was the Damien (The Omen) equivalent when I hit 6 years of age. I had to be free. I lit things on fire during the meetings. I would throw narly fits and pick up chairs or whatever I could pick up and throw it across the room. I was a little porker so physically restraining me was a challenge. I realized I was truly alone when everything around me began to turn to shit, when people of faith suffered relentlessly, when truly good people were getting the shaft. I realized then that anything I do on planet Earth is only accomplished through my hand not His. If anything I’m partial to the teachings of Anton LaVey. Good post though.
GB - I am so sorry for your experiences. That is an evil thing to have done to you and those responsible for the twisted teachings of the JW’s will have to answer for all of the lives they have destroyed and the faith they have robbed so many of . . . my heart is broken for you . . . I am truly sorry . . . I really do not know what else to say right now . . .[/quote]
Hey no worries mate, its just part of life. Without that component I wouldn’t be who I am today. Some kids grow up in the faith and blossom to be straight arrow, God-fearing people with roll-on/roll-off missionary position 3 minute lasting sex lives. I couldn’t stand being in there. I couldn’t stand wearing the penguin outfit. I couldn’t do Power Ranger battle moves in the motherfucker. It truly limited my aspirations to be the black Power Ranger at the time. I find the Christian faith to be one of the most oppressive institutions in the history of man. From Galileo to a fat kid in a tux with a red bow tie, wearing a Power Ranger’s helmet, doing battle with an imaginary foe.
Free Methodist actually.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Oleena wrote:
In Revelations it states that most of the earth will be destroyed in the endtime, and only a very small percentage of all of humanity that ever existed will make it into the kingdom of Heaven.
Now I ask you- if you were going to have 10 children, and you knew from far before the moment that you conceived them that 9 of them were going to CHOOSE TO BURN IN HELL, would you have 10 children?
Am I correct in assuming that you were raised as, or used to be, an Evangelical Protestant? Because Revelation (no S) is generally seen in small-o orthodox Christianity as a book that is to be read allegorically. That goes for a lot of Scripture actually. If you take every word of the Bible literally, then yes, you will have serious problems.
As for who will be saved, that is an issue we can never know, but the idea that the vast majority of people will go to Hell is definitely not the sole or even main Christian interpretation. If you are truly an undecided atheist, the second chapter of the Catholic theologian Richard John Neuhaus’ “Death on a Friday Afternoon” talks a great deal about the idea of the “massa damnata” and who will be saved. Neuhaus is a conservative Catholic theologian, and he does not sound like a believer in “a well-populated Hell.” I recommend reading the whole book, and I’m not a Catholic.[/quote]
29!
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Here’s a way to think about it. “You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.” CS Lewis[/quote]
If the soul is the actual individual, and the body is simply some kind of receptacle, then why does putting chemicals in the body change the soul? I know people who, since being prescribed anti-depressors, are completely different people. To the point of straining old friendships. Even a few drinks too many will have people behaving completely out of character.
Then there is the question of how the soul controls the body. How does that work? Where does the soul “input” enter the body? Where does it get the feedback from? If the soul is interacting physically with the body, then we should be able to test for it scientifically and prove it’s existence simply from the behavior of whatever physical apparatus it interacts with (we’ll see phenomenon occuring for which there isn’t a possible natural, physical explanation).
Then again, if all a “person” (in the individual sense of the word) is, is complex chemical interactions in the brain, then we don’t need to wonder why messing with the chemicals change the person, nor do we need to ask how the spiritual whateve of the soul gets to interact with the physical body.
It also explains perfectly well why we never see a bodyless soul going around.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Oleena wrote:
I cannot answer for God’s motive in allowing people to live, allowing them to choose and then treating them according to their choices - but it seems that the greater burden lies on the individual not on God - because He has done everything short of violating our free will to make it possible for everyone to go to heaven.
.
This is basically reiterating my question. God knew which way each person would choose before he even created them. He did not simply “allow them to live once they were already in existnace” he ineffect gave birth to them. Allow them to live sounds compassionate, but when you really take the entire situation into consideration, it’s like allowing a rabbid puppy to live. What does free will matter if he already knew which direction we would choose to go before he created us?
[/quote]
Does God know what each person will choose - yes.
So, in your thinking, this then is reason enough for Him to never have allowed them to live at all. Is that correct?
It is the interconnectedness of all lives that allows each the ability to reason and to choose - so to eliminate those who would chose incorrectly negates their influence on the lives of those who would choose correctly - if you remove those who choose to deny God, then you have to remove all of them.
All of creation then would be pointless to your understanding because God created people He knows he will have to punish? Is this your real question?
Free will matters because it is the heart of our existence. It is not the same as allowing a rabid puppy to live - the puppy did not choose his disease. It is no fault of the puppy - but our lives are entirely up to us as individuals, and as I was trying to point out - it is our whole lives lived entirely in free will that are judged in the last day.
[quote]pookie wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Here’s a way to think about it. “You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.” CS Lewis
If the soul is the actual individual, and the body is simply some kind of receptacle, then why does putting chemicals in the body change the soul? I know people who, since being prescribed anti-depressors, are completely different people. To the point of straining old friendships. Even a few drinks too many will have people behaving completely out of character.
Then there is the question of how the soul controls the body. How does that work? Where does the soul “input” enter the body? Where does it get the feedback from? If the soul is interacting physically with the body, then we should be able to test for it scientifically and prove it’s existence simply from the behavior of whatever physical apparatus it interacts with (we’ll see phenomenon occuring for which there isn’t a possible natural, physical explanation).
Then again, if all a “person” (in the individual sense of the word) is, is complex chemical interactions in the brain, then we don’t need to wonder why messing with the chemicals change the person, nor do we need to ask how the spiritual whateve of the soul gets to interact with the physical body.
It also explains perfectly well why we never see a bodyless soul going around.
[/quote]
lol - that’s good stuff - BTW, scientist still do not know why the brain works . . . look it up - it will make for some interesting reading for you.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
My mind is never made up. It is open to new arguments and will consider solid evidence. In previous threads, I’ve made it clear that when I’m proven wrong on a point, I will admit it and take on the new point.
Most atheists are not people who have hardened their hearts against their religion, they are people who have opened their hearts and minds to other ways of thinking. Every atheist I’ve met wants to debate and try to prove the existance or non-existance of god, whereas most of the Christians I know “have their minds made up” and will do a lot to avoid evidence.
So once again, my mind is not made up. Anything I believe right now is subject to change if it does not fit reality, and you can show me how it doesn’t.
MaximusB wrote:
Oleena,
From your above post it seems your mind is made up. So why start such a thread (which is loaded from the start), and just believe what you believe? Why do people need to affirm their sensibilities with other people? If you are an atheist, then so be it. At the end of the day, you have to be happy with you. You bring your second guessing here in this thread to prove what? Just be happy you are an atheist and call it a day already.
[/quote]
Anyone who can so quickly bounce from religion to religion is not ready for religion. You will look for evidence here or there, and yet you might not find any. You might not ever find evidence about relgiion. So what will you do Oleena? Its called faith. Faith is what is behind your religion, whichever one you chose to believe in. Faith is what backs the notion when common sense doesn’t work. When miracles happen when you least expect it. There are no atheists in foxholes, and clearly you have never been in one. And if you think I literally mean a military-style foxhole, you are way off the mark and ready for anything this thread has to offer. You cannot have wings and roots at the same time.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Why are you seeking to mock Christianity?
Because it’s not his religion.
And you do exactly the same, you hypocrite jackass![/quote]
I mock not. I point out the fact that their is a tremendous predominance to violence from muslims. I don’t know why they do it. It muslims, not I that say their religion makes them do it. I don’t know enough about islam to criticize, but don’t expect me to turn a blind eye to it. The body count is way to high and growing daily. If I believed that that’s what God wanted, I turn away too like the other athiests. But I do believe that, I think it’s wrong to behave that way and then expect everybody to just accept it.
Islam is in deep trouble because to many muslims ascribe to a tradition of hate, violence and murder. All these I am against. Sorry the truth hurts. I will not back away from it until the behaviour changes.
Note, I said many not all, not even most, but the ones who do sure inflict a whole lot of damage and misery through out the world.
That’s not mocking. It is verifiable. I have proved it many times and can prove it many more.
[quote]Buff HardBack wrote:
pat wrote:
Why are you seeking to mock Christianity? A bible quiz from an atheist website, really? Seems a transparent effort to bash religious folk. I guess if you need to do so to feel better about yourself, go ahead. I will not play.
You can look up every freaking verse from that “atheist website” and…wait for it…ITS ALL TRUE. Its not a transparent effort to bash religion. I find it more along the lines of ‘how in the hell can people believe this’. I for one pray to the flying spagetti monster, or the one eyed one horned flying purple people eater. They seem nicer than the vengeful god described in that book.[/quote]
I hope that works out for you.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
lol - that’s good stuff - BTW, scientist still do not know why the brain works . . . look it up - it will make for some interesting reading for you.[/quote]
How can someone read about stuff that isn’t known? You can’t make science books up as you go along, those aren’t Bibles, you know.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I’d be worried if they weren’t bashing Christianity.
Whoa there Mister! Am I bashing Christians or are the Christians bashing me?
Let’s back up a step- so far I’ve been insulted as a person having my panties in a bunch, it’s been implied that I’m ignorant and cold hearted, and that my mind is made up.
In response, I have done nothing except ask few questions. None of the questions personally insulted anyone. I also did not group all christians as a whole and ascribe them negative traites, such as people have done numerous times with regards to atheists on this thread.
So stop feeling righteously persecuted, because so far that hasn’t happened.
[/quote]
I didn’t point anyone out…now read your last sentence in this quote.
[quote]pat wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
pat wrote:
Why are you seeking to mock Christianity? A bible quiz from an atheist website, really? Seems a transparent effort to bash religious folk. I guess if you need to do so to feel better about yourself, go ahead. I will not play.
You can look up every freaking verse from that “atheist website” and…wait for it…ITS ALL TRUE. Its not a transparent effort to bash religion. I find it more along the lines of ‘how in the hell can people believe this’. I for one pray to the flying spagetti monster, or the one eyed one horned flying purple people eater. They seem nicer than the vengeful god described in that book.
I hope that works out for you.
[/quote]
Im thinking it will. God has chosen not to “speak to me” and correct me in my flawed ways so ill go this route.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Pushme and IrishSteel, I am going to give you a chance to convert me back to Christianity right now. I swear to you that I am being serious, and if there is a good answer to this that does not involve the following, I will return to Christianity (when I was a Christian, I loved being a Christian) 1. Saying God is anything less than all knowing, because that’s been clearly stated in the Bible or 2. You cannot hold God to the same standards as men, because in this case the grievance is enormous and I would not want to follow someone who was this petty/selfish/unethical according to the most basic parenting standards. In other words, as a parent, it is your responsibility to look out for the well being of your offspring. Not 1% or less of them, but all of them.
First of all, as I mentioned, it’s stated that God is all knowing (Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)
In Revelations it states that most of the earth will be destroyed in the endtime, and only a very small percentage of all of humanity that ever existed will make it into the kingdom of Heaven.
Now I ask you- if you were going to have 10 children, and you knew from far before the moment that you conceived them that 9 of them were going to CHOOSE TO BURN IN HELL, would you have 10 children?
Think carefully on this answer as not to be hypocritical. If you support or use birthcontrol in any manner, you are choosing in the opposite direction that God did.
I cannot ethically follow a God who plays games with his children, the end result of which is far more than 99% burning in hell.[/quote]
Ahhh, your not atheist at all. You pissed off because of the ‘problem of evil’. You can’t know who is going to hell and who is not, why in the world would you think it is 99%? That’s just silly. I wouldn’t be religious if I thought that either.
You don’t deny God’s existence, you’re just pissed…“How could a loving God allow so much evil.” It is an age old problem, probably the biggest.
You aren’t going to be converted on a forumn, in a coffee shop or anywhere else. Each person’s journey is unique…Hell, I have friend of mine that turned the corner after a profound acid trip. He just saw things differently and it finally made some sense to him.
I can argue for the existence of God and you can argue against, and we can get pretty far into the discussion, but there is a lot we cannot know. WE can argue from the scientific perspective, at the quantum level, from the mathematical perspective, at the physical level, metaphysical level, and on and on.
Why don’t you ask God? You can ask push, and he is strong like bull, but he ain’t God and he cannot communicate to you like the Good Lord Himself.
As far as the bible many people read it and a lot just simply do not understand it. You can mine it and make it sound bad. Hell, I could mine “Chicken Soup for the soul” and make is sound like a tyrannical, murderous, violent composition, that’s the easy part.