[quote]Oleena wrote:
I would too. That’s why I made sure all the 14 year old bi-polar, Reactive attachment disorder, oppositional defiant disorder etc etc kids I worked with understood that condoms could save their lives and they’d be an idiot not to use one.
[/quote]
Amen.
I didnt see the question - “Who is GOD’s left hand?” Im sure you know that … its Satan. This religion is outdated and over rated. People are so blind to the fact that WE ARE ALL GOD IS DISGUISE… Whatelse can the all powerful, all knowing do with itself? -Play hide and seek of course… Have fun in your life! Its not real anyways. 
Excellent wit. You deserve a round of applause for that one. If only your arguments were half as complex as your humor.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
I’m beginning to wonder if you’re even a christian or if you’re just being the devil’s advocate for fun
As I am questioning your sincerity on this thread from the git-go. Are you a baiter? Or are you earnestly seeking answers?
I prefer to make sure that my opinion is backed in bitterness. However, why would I have this opinion if I wasn’t already pretty sure that it was? You’ll note that when someone brings up something that I have not thought of, I aknowledge it with a “That’s interesting” or I might scoff at other times and subsequently expect my opponents to respectfully abstain from that which I so earnestly implore them not to do to me.
Neither of us are here because we think we are wrong, but I know I’m ten times as frustrated as you are because I can’t dictate the terms of the discussion and I am a petulant girl, used to getting my way and willing to run a bait and switch routine if I don’t.
Fixed that for you.
[/quote]
…if free will exists then all the believers on this board can surely decide not to believe anymore?
[quote]mbm693 wrote:
You apparently don’t understand what an appeal to authority fallacy is. In this case, you appealed to the justice system to justify your system of morality. Our justice system is NOT an authority on morality. Seriously, please do A LITTLE reading before you subject anyone else to your ignorance.
I’m not trying to force determinism on free will. I’m illustrating that free will does not exist. You were the one that mentioned people being denied the ability to exercise their free will, through brain damage or otherwise. I simply asked you explain at what point I am too damaged or impaired to exercise my free will. You can’t answer that and now you’re running scared.
You mention a distinction between choices based on preferences and spiritual decisions of a moral nature. This a false dichotomy. If my actions can be influenced by the chemical make up of my brain, then my actions are ALWAYS influenced by the chemical make up of my brain. That being the case, I have no free will. This isn’t hard to understand, and you have yet to offer a single counter example. All you’ve done is insist that free will is something magical that is outside the causal chain, even though all the evidence points to the contrary.
Lastly, your unbelievably lame argument about how I had free will when I drank the first beer is completly missing the point, the average 3rd grader could see that. Since you probably haven’t put it together yet, I’ll explain it again for you. The human brain is constantly subjected to a variety of hormones and chemicals. These are present before I drink the first beer, and they have a far more profound effect on my behavior than 3 o4 4 beers will. You seem to readily acknowlege that I can’t exercise free will when I’m under the influence of alchohol. Why do you think the other chemicals in my brain don’t have any effect on my ability to exersize my free will?[/quote]
so much fun talking to someone who simple adds in his own words for what you actually said . . . kind of like a three-way with 2 people . . . mind-bender . . .
FAIL - I did not appeal to the legal system to justify any system of morality (was not speaking of moral systems but of free will) so please do a little thinking before you begin to type . . . .
You’re not illustrating that free will does not exist, you are merely illustrating your lack of understanding and refusal to believe in free will - something entirely different than proving something does not exist.
You finally got around to a real question . . . thought you’d never organize your thoughts enough to accomplish that . . . At what point are you too damaged or impaired to exercise free will? Now that you have actually asked a question, I’ll be more than happy to answer it. But understand that I hold that the soul and brain are two different things - more on that later . . .
First, if your ability to conceive moral distinctives has not matured to the point where you can freely exercise it (ie, immature children), you cannot make a volitional, morally culpable
choice - thus until you are able to, no choice you make can violate God’s law. At the point you become capable of understanding and making a volitional, morally culpable choice - you have reached the age of accountability and must make morally culpable decisions when they are presented to you in the course of your life. Infants who die before the age of accountability and people born with defects that would impair their ability to understand and make volitional, morally culpable decisions (basically moral infants with big bodies) can never make a volitional morally culpable choice. They are born morally clear and die morally clear - they could never “sin” and thus go straight to heaven.
EVERY one else who is born with the capacity for understanding morally culpable choices will have to answer for those choices made through the exercise of their free will . . . it is that simple . . .
Every volitional morally culpable choice you make are the ones you will have to answer for at the judgment . . . at what point are you impaired from making a free will choice? That’s simple - the moment that you do not have the capacity to understand and make a volitional morally culpable choice - then you could not make a morally culpable choice . . . If you make a volitional morally culpable choice - you have exercised free will.
Your are still confusing brain with soul . . . LMAO - what is really ridiculous about my going to such great lengths to explain all of this to you is that you do not even believe in a soul, so every answer I give based on the existence of your soul - you will simple ignore or try to rework into brain chemistry. It is only a false dichotomy if there is no soul. If there is a soul - then it is not a false dichotomy. you are simply trying to force my soul-based beliefs into your non-soul-based belief system. Of course they won’t match . . . . douh . . .
But why are you even questioning spiritual matters if you do not accept the existence of an immortal soul? That’s really stupid - go talk about something you actually have a stake in instead of wandering into conversations about issues you do not even acknowledge the validity of. . . Its the height of stupidity to ask me to explain something that in the end you will simply state that you do not believe in . . . It would be like asking me to explain orange fish, but then stating that you don’t believe in orange fish - so my explanation can’t be right . . . That’s not proof - that merely rhetorically juvenile pranks . . . Yeah, you really showed me - I explained the concept of free will and the soul as I believe them to be and you said there is no such thing as free will or a soul - wow, blew me right out of the water with that amazing wit of yours . . . yep- can’t possibly respond to your disbelief with my belief . . .
Again, you keep trying to make me explain a matter of the soul in terms of the brain . . . and then state that since I have not proven the soul through brain chemistry I must be wrong - that’s called circular reasoning and begging the question . . .
But I will entertain your immaturity a bit further . . . morally culpable decisions are based on the individual . . . For example -there are “dependent” choices such as drinking beer for one person under one set of circumstances may not involve a morally culpable decision, whereas for another individual in another set of circumstances it would constitute a morally culpable decision - and there are “non-dependent” choices such as the choice to commit adultery that are always a morally culpable decision - that is why we each have to give an answer for OUR choices made in OUR circumstances in OUR life.
Oh well, the answers in this post are not for you . . .you’ll ignore them like Oleena does, but hopefully they help others who do believe in the soul to better understand my beliefs.
(NOTE - any illustrations, analogies or comparisons used in the preceding post are made merely for illustrative purposes and in no way constitute a complete explanation of the matter in question)
[quote]Oleena wrote:
So you are saying it is impossible to hold God responsible to the same standards that he holds you responsible and to our lowly decision making standards because he exists outside of time?
(see my above post about the drug addicted parent to get a better idea of my response to the rest of what you wrote)
[/quote]
WTF - that’s what you got out of my post? I don’t even know why I bothered . . .
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…if free will exists then all the believers on this board can surely decide not to believe anymore?[/quote]
yes
Oleena, I took you at your word that you wanted to have an honest discussion about these issues. It turns out that all you want to do is rail against your concept of an evil deity based on how you interpret certain cherry-picked scripture. No matter how many questions I (or anyone else) answer for you based on what I understand of Scripture, you are not really seeking answers, but merely opportunity to denigrate any Christian belief system based on your confused views of what you think Christianity is. It’s the same with mbm693 - you are not honestly seeking an rational explanation of the tenets of Christianity, you’ve already made up your mind and will simply jump from topic to topic ad nauseum seeking another way to abuse a faith you admit is not your own.
That’s hardly honest . . . when you are ready (if ever) to actually discuss these issues, let me know. Otherwise, just go ahead and enjoy your rants against the Divine for what they actually are . . .
[quote]Oleena wrote:
mb693- It would appear that this thread has culminated into you and I essentially arguing the same point. What do you think? (anyone else, feel free to jump in)>
Would you rather a meth addict who was using throughout the entire pregnancy have the child or would you rather that they not get pregnant in the first place?
This is essentially the same question as the one I posed below. We can predict that the child will have limited capacities for life, and statistics show that they will most likely end up in jail, if they even make it past the first year of life in a hospital. We would prefer that children were born to healthy parents because we do not want to promote suffering of any sort in life.
God knew that much of his children would burn in hell FOREVER (according to the bible) and he still decided to have them. Burning in hell forever is much worse than being born to a drug addicted parent. If you knew that your child was going to burn in hell forever (and you knew this FOR SURE BEFORE YOU HAD IT) I bet that you would choose not to have it.
The view that his creation is a beautiful one is just a perspective. In reality, it is quite common for children to be raped before the age of 5, to turn into sexual offenders as a result and rape other children (this has happened to over 500 kids that I used to work with just in the small outskirt city where I lived). Babies are raped, and grow up with all sort of disorders that they don’t understand because most of the time they can’t remember that an object nearly as big as themselves was crammed into their tiny holes before their though process was complete (yes, this is possible). Many more grow up with parents that prostitute them out for drugs. 1000s upon 1000s are born to parents who used drugs and have personality disorders that cause them to commit horrible offenses to society that are a result of chemical imbalances resulting from the drug use during pregnancy. It would be a serious stretch of interpretive translation, according to everything that is written about how a person can get through the straight and narrow path and into heaven, for these individuals to get into Heaven. Many of them will tell you that they wish they were not born. Life is not a simple “right and wrong” process. These people are shades of grey.
[/quote]
The Bible has the answers to all of your questions. Hell is not for eternity, nor do you have an immortal soul.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
I’m pretty sure that the monks that lit themselves on fire in protest to war didn’t turn to god as they willingly burned to death to prove a point.
zarrs wrote:
I got 39 right I’ve read the bible a lot, as I find it very interesting. I am not a bible basher and I don’t go to church but I do have a interest in all religions.
And the only religious quote i truly do believes in and it isn’t from the bible is " every one turns to god just before death". That was said by our Chaplin the day before we left to go on a deployment.
He was spot on as well the most hard core theres no god turned to him in the end.
[/quote]
You couldn’t be more wrong, Monks have always protested liked that as there beliefs are if they do it in the name of religion and peace they will come back as something good in their next life. Theres recordings of them doing in ancient china and in more modern times the VIETNAM war
I actually think your hatred of religion has blinded you to everything that happens with religion so you will just try and punch holes in every single statement even if you have no idea what you are talking about. Which is a shame because religion itself is a very interesting topic if every body at the table has a open mind.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
so much fun talking to someone who simple adds in his own words for what you actually said . . . kind of like a three-way with 2 people . . . mind-bender . . .
[/quote]
ummm… whatever. I’m sure this looked better in your head.
You did, kindly go back and read your post. But wait till you calm down first, you’re in a bit of a huff. I’d offer you a hug, but I’m worried the stupid might be contageous.
You’ve got me here. I can’t prove free will doesn’t exist. However, let me lay out the situation for you.
You insist, without any evidence that free will exists outside the causal chain. I show you evidence that strongly suggests it does not. You continue to insist that free will exists outsid the causal chain, inspite of any evidence presented to you. You’re actions in this instance are just short of insane.
I actually asked THIS VERY QUESTION several posts ago. Thanks for playing though, it’s been great for my confidence.
I repeat: What about teenagers? The human brain, especailly the part concerned with evaluating consequenses, develops well into most ppls 20. Surely, then, no teenager (or 13 year old jewish boy) could be reasonable judged on his actions. Also, you mention people with defects that would impair thier ability to understand and make… morally culpable decisions. These people are presumably brain damaged in some way. Yet, you insist that the soul is something entirely independent of the brain. Why then, should it matter at all what kind of brain damage these people have suffered? Lastly, for this paragraph anyway, where is your PROOF that the world works this way? I’ve at least got some evidence on my side, but you don’t have ANYTHING other than your repeated assertions.
Still not seeing any evidence for the existence of the ‘free will’ you keep babling about. It’s great that YOU think this is the way it works, but I don’t see any ryhm or reason to it. Additionally, what you’re saying here would seem to suggest I can make up my own morality. As long as I truly believe (or have faith) that what I did isn’t wrong, it isn’t.
I’m not confusing the brain with the soul. You keep assuming I am, which should be impossible if you had even basic reading skills. I’m saying that the brain clearly controls the body(please try to argue with this and show everyone how crazy you really are). And you’re saying that the soul will be judged for what the body does (rape, murder, ect). Therefore, for any judgement of the soul to be justifiable, the soul must have some input into what the brain tells the body to do. YOu’ve already tacitly admitted this is the case with your comments regarding invalids. I’m just asking you to detail this relationship to me.
So now I’m not allowed to ask you questions about the views that you’ve put on display in a public forum?
WHile I am telling you along the way that I don’t believe what you believe, I’m trying to instill upon you the fact that you have NO EVIDENCE to believe what you believe. I"m not bait and switching you, I’m asking you to justify and provide evidence for the claims you are making.
Again, not asking you explain the soul in terms of the brain, just the relationship the soul will have to have with the brain for Judgement to rendered. Your dichotomy of dependent vs non-dependent choices is waaaaay out of left field. Where did that even come from? Where is your evidence and reasoning that it is true?
Meet my friend Mr Black
(I tried to add some witt but failed)
[quote]pushharder wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
The big bad man is making fun of me. What should I do. Will you go away if I give you my lunch money big bad man?
I was thinking of taking it from you either way.
I will see you at the flag pole at 3pm.
Whether or not you show up, you’ll surely be hungry.
[/quote]
That’s not very Christian of you. Especially since you could multiply the fish sticks in the cafeteria to the point that everyone could eat free.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
mbm693 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Awwwwww… him doesn’t want to debate the issue with widdle old me so him is going to post funny pictures instead… him so cute.
Tell ya what champ, let’s compare post count on this thread and the evolution thread (not counting my admitted bullshitting posts) and see who has been serious about debating, shall we?
Lets compare post CONTENT instead. You’re a blow hard that resorts to lame jokes when he runs into an argument he can’t address. Classic quantity over quality.
I said EVEN if you exclude my bullshittery and fun and good times you are still the Johnny-come-lately and I have put more than enough serious time into these threads. In fact, my serious posts dwarf yours, both quality and quantity.
Now seriously, get into the gym. You need to exercise the mind AND the body.[/quote]
Wow, you had to take two shots and making a come back to this one. They both suck though. You get one more strike. Swing away.