[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…if free will exists then all the believers on this board can surely decide not to believe anymore?
yes[/quote]
…really? You may not want to, but can you really decide to stop believing like you do from one moment to the next? I know i can’t do the opposite, not with any sincerity at least…
…but still this question remains: if, in heaven, we have no other option than to worship God, which means no free will in heaven, then why give us free will on earth? I can see the rational here: if you choose him out of free will then you’d want to spend eternity worshipping him in heaven BUT because i exercise my free will against him knowing of him, he sends me to hell…
…at best, free will is provisional, right? A gift with strings attached. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth goes the saying, but this gift reeks big time…
mbm693 - Tell you what, little one, let’s start from your side of this issue . . . when you can explain what constitutes human consciousness in the brain and how/when it actually first occurs in the brain of an infant, then we can have this discussion on the soul and free will.
You deny the soul, but cannot explain your own mind. Even the best scientist of this day and age cannot explain consciousness, yet you in your infinite understanding arrogantly conclude that the brain is all there is of your consciousness . . .lmao . . . You cannot even explain your own conscious awareness of and interaction with the world and yet demand that I prove the soul to you . . .
the basis for my belief in the soul comes from reason and from scripture (that’s why it is a belief) . . . .you on the other hand believe there is no soul, but cannot offer an explanation then for your own consciousness except a feeble cry of "da brain . . .da brain . . . " while scientists know that the mind is more than the electrical impulses of the brain.
To make it easy on you - I believe the soul is the spiritual operator of the physical body and interacts with the physical world through the switchboard of the brain (thus impairing the brain interferes with our souls ability to interact with the physical world) . . . We know we can keep the body alive with “life” support, but we cannot return consciousness even to a perfectly healthy brain when there is no soul to operate it . . .
the mind is more than what the brain is doing . . .
[quote]ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…if free will exists then all the believers on this board can surely decide not to believe anymore?
yes
…really? You may not want to, but can you really decide to stop believing like you do from one moment to the next? I know i can’t do the opposite, not with any sincerity at least…
[/quote]
yes - We can choose not to believe.
That is the point - if you change your beliefs by accepting something previously believed to be untrue as now being true (or vice versa - regardless of the reason for the change), you possess the free will to make that choice. Sincerity would be found in the rationale for the change, wouldn’t you agree?
…and yet we have mindaltering drugs. There is disease that change personalities, like Altzheimers. Headtrauma that can totally change a person, most famously Phineas Gage - Wikipedia Brain surgeons can affect specific areas of the brain to illicit responses from the patient, without the patients doing. You can feel, sense, see, hear and move limbs by manipulating the brain from the outside. So where does this ‘more’ start, and where does the brain’s involvement end?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…if free will exists then all the believers on this board can surely decide not to believe anymore?
yes
…really? You may not want to, but can you really decide to stop believing like you do from one moment to the next? I know i can’t do the opposite, not with any sincerity at least…
yes - We can choose not to believe.
That is the point - if you change your beliefs by accepting something previously believed to be untrue as now being true (or vice versa - regardless of the reason for the change), you possess the free will to make that choice. Sincerity would be found in the rationale for the change, wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]
…yes, if you have a reason, something that superseeds the previous belief, then a belief can change, or you can stop believing. But if you have free will, you can also stop believing without a rationale, because that is what i get from christians that speak of free will: that free will is somehow independent from causality. Please understand, i’m not saying that you believe this way, it’s the impression i get from discussions on this subject…
…because in my view, nothing we do is independent from causality, e.i. every choice we make is based upon a previous experience, belief, unconscious preference and so on. Seen in that light, free will extends perhaps to the ability to make a choice, but not to the independence in making a choice free from previous influences. Am i making sense here?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…but still this question remains: if, in heaven, we have no other option than to worship God, which means no free will in heaven, then why give us free will on earth? I can see the rational here: if you choose him out of free will then you’d want to spend eternity worshipping him in heaven BUT because i exercise my free will against him knowing of him, he sends me to hell…
…at best, free will is provisional, right? A gift with strings attached. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth goes the saying, but this gift reeks big time…[/quote]
LOL - I tried to address this in another post. Heaven is not going to be an eternal choral group . . . we will have free will in heaven - want to go to the other end of the new universe - go for it, want to build a catapult - go for it . . lol
no - it’s not provisional - you get to exercise it here, there and everywhere.
If you choose to separate yourself from him - he gives you that choice, abides by your choice and allows you to separate yourself from him forever. . . you get what you want - not sure how that is problem. Oleena, and mbm don’t want to have anything to do with God and so they don’t have to have anything to do with him . . . apparently their only problem with it is the biblical promise of eternal punishment of “BURNING IN HELL FOREVER” - if that wasn’t involved they wouldn’t give two flips for any of this discussion or their eternal state - if it makes them feel any better, I believe hell will be a spiritual fire (burning/longing) to be reconnected with God once they realize it was all true . . . but now I have wandered far from your post- sorry
There are a lot of things that we couldn’t explain back in the day, and made up fairy tales for what was happening. For instance, one myth explains that everyday a chariot goes across the sky dragging the sun behind it. Without having the proper equipment and knowledge that we were going around the sun, there was no way to combat the argument, and it seemed that those on the side of the chariot in the sky had a solid fact going on, even though it was preposterous.
Also, many years ago people did not know what caused illness. Some believed sickness came because they failed to make proper sacrifices. Others thought it was caused by spells cast by enemies. Years later they developed the technology to discover that it had nothing to do with the spiritual world, but in fact was caused by germs that were too small for previous equipment to measure.
I hypothesize that we will find out how the thought processes and brains work and that souls will not be the cause.
Infact, so far no one has mentioned the role of hormones and chemicals associated with emotion when discussing thought processes.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
mbm693 - Tell you what, little one, let’s start from your side of this issue . . . when you can explain what constitutes human consciousness in the brain and how/when it actually first occurs in the brain of an infant, then we can have this discussion on the soul and free will.
You deny the soul, but cannot explain your own mind. Even the best scientist of this day and age cannot explain consciousness, yet you in your infinite understanding arrogantly conclude that the brain is all there is of your consciousness . . .lmao . . . You cannot even explain your own conscious awareness of and interaction with the world and yet demand that I prove the soul to you . . .
the basis for my belief in the soul comes from reason and from scripture (that’s why it is a belief) . . . .you on the other hand believe there is no soul, but cannot offer an explanation then for your own consciousness except a feeble cry of "da brain . . .da brain . . . " while scientists know that the mind is more than the electrical impulses of the brain.
To make it easy on you - I believe the soul is the spiritual operator of the physical body and interacts with the physical world through the switchboard of the brain (thus impairing the brain interferes with our souls ability to interact with the physical world) . . . We know we can keep the body alive with “life” support, but we cannot return consciousness even to a perfectly healthy brain when there is no soul to operate it . . .
the mind is more than what the brain is doing . . . [/quote]
[quote]ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:the mind is more than what the brain is doing . . .
…and yet we have mindaltering drugs. There is disease that change personalities, like Altzheimers. Headtrauma that can totally change a person, most famously Phineas Gage - Wikipedia Brain surgeons can affect specific areas of the brain to illicit responses from the patient, without the patients doing. You can feel, sense, see, hear and move limbs by manipulating the brain from the outside. So where does this ‘more’ start, and where does the brain’s involvement end?
[/quote]
seems to me that all they have proved is that the brain really is the switchboard for the body - not that there isn’t a soul in there operating it.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…but still this question remains: if, in heaven, we have no other option than to worship God, which means no free will in heaven, then why give us free will on earth? I can see the rational here: if you choose him out of free will then you’d want to spend eternity worshipping him in heaven BUT because i exercise my free will against him knowing of him, he sends me to hell…
…at best, free will is provisional, right? A gift with strings attached. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth goes the saying, but this gift reeks big time…
LOL - I tried to address this in another post. Heaven is not going to be an eternal choral group . . . we will have free will in heaven - want to go to the other end of the new universe - go for it, want to build a catapult - go for it . . lol
no - it’s not provisional - you get to exercise it here, there and everywhere.[/quote]
…is that your personal belief?
…well no, that idea of hell makes more sense than a burning lake of fire, tbh…
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[/quote]
uh huh . . . thanks
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:the mind is more than what the brain is doing . . .
…and yet we have mindaltering drugs. There is disease that change personalities, like Altzheimers. Headtrauma that can totally change a person, most famously Phineas Gage - Wikipedia Brain surgeons can affect specific areas of the brain to illicit responses from the patient, without the patients doing. You can feel, sense, see, hear and move limbs by manipulating the brain from the outside. So where does this ‘more’ start, and where does the brain’s involvement end?
seems to me that all they have proved is that the brain really is the switchboard for the body - not that there isn’t a soul in there operating it. [/quote]
…you know you can’t prove a negative. Otoh, no-one has proven a soul does exist either, and inspite of beliefs, if we look at the evidence without prejudice, there’s nothing that suggest souls exist…
…with a majority of men on this board, that shouldn’t surprise you, lol…
Ah, an interesting observation. Is there really such a thing as free will, or are we all slaves to operant and/or classical conditiong? That’s a toughie.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…but still this question remains: if, in heaven, we have no other option than to worship God, which means no free will in heaven, then why give us free will on earth? I can see the rational here: if you choose him out of free will then you’d want to spend eternity worshipping him in heaven BUT because i exercise my free will against him knowing of him, he sends me to hell…
…at best, free will is provisional, right? A gift with strings attached. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth goes the saying, but this gift reeks big time…
LOL - I tried to address this in another post. Heaven is not going to be an eternal choral group . . . we will have free will in heaven - want to go to the other end of the new universe - go for it, want to build a catapult - go for it . . lol
no - it’s not provisional - you get to exercise it here, there and everywhere.
If you choose to separate yourself from him - he gives you that choice, abides by your choice and allows you to separate yourself from him forever. . . you get what you want - not sure how that is problem. Oleena, and mbm don’t want to have anything to do with God and so they don’t have to have anything to do with him . . . apparently their only problem with it is the biblical promise of eternal punishment of “BURNING IN HELL FOREVER” - if that wasn’t involved they wouldn’t give two flips for any of this discussion or their eternal state - if it makes them feel any better, I believe hell will be a spiritual fire (burning/longing) to be reconnected with God once they realize it was all true . . . but now I have wandered far from your post- sorry[/quote]
For the last fifteen pages or so I have been debating this from a Christian perspective, using only thought patterns that they could come to naturally, accepting everything that they see written in the Bible. I have not stated why I care to debate this with people. What I’m debating and the reason I’m debating it are pretty seperate.
When I first started question christianity I remained empathetic to my christian friends and family. I figured their religion was a good thing for them, and this was my issue. I didn’t want to take christianity away from them.
However, as I researched christianity (and this applies to all god-fearing religions) I came to understand that there are many social structures and beliefs that it came into existance to support which are hurting a lot of people.
My biggest problem with it is that it leaves a person with an inability to complete their thought process. An analogy describing what I mean would be a child believing in Santa Clause. He does not TRY to understand where else the presents might be coming from because he KNOWS that they come from Santa Clause. In this same way god-fearing religions have opposed scientific progress and quite a few other societal improvements, such as the acceptance of gays (we need them to be accepted just from a purely economical standpoint because they are aweseome citizens. If you ever have one as a neighbor you’ll know what I mean. Very clean yards.) and the end of slavery.
…obviously i’m leaning towards the latter…