The mistake is in thinking of the inevitable outputs of our wetworks as choosing. As choice.
[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
and again - you miss my point entirely . . . is it fun just ignoring me altogether so you can reiterate your same view over and over?
Have you considered that I understand your point, but you aren’t taking the time to understand mine? Your entire post tells me that you’re not grasping what I am trying to say. Seriously, just take a step back and listen for a second.
[quote We are agents of free will, open to choose any option WITHOUT CONSTRAINING CAUSES!
Then answer this question:
Given that you are open to choose any option without constraining causes, WHY DO YOU MAKE THE CHOICES YOU DO?
Is there a reason you make the choices you do, or are your choices entirely random?
Your choices are made by YOU, whatever YOU means. And since god made YOU, god is ultimately responsible for the choices you make.
Maybe this will help.
Think about Jesus, the only perfect person to have lived.
What was it about Jesus that caused him to make the right choice, each and every time?
Did he see the world differently? Did he have more willpower? Was his love greater than anyone else’s?
WHY did he make the choices he did? What were the underlying attributes that enabled him to make those choices instead of choosing to sin instead?[/quote]
Yes - I do understand your point and have correctly identified your reasoning as being consistent with pre-determinism rather than with free will.
There is no “why” to be discovered within the choice. There is simply the choice made. You continually ask me to remove the concept of the agent of free will in order to fit within your pre-determinism and I cannot do so. Being an agent of free will negates the construct of a cause for the choice - and that is all there is.
Jesus made the right choice every time because he made the right choice every time - again, that is all there is. He saw the world exactly the same as we do. Having more will power implies something to overcome to make the right choice - again not consistent with free will. He was identical to us in every way and tempted in every way we are and He chose not to sin - again, that is all there is - he chose, we choose.
You cannot merge your view of pre-determinism with the concept of free will no matter how hard you try, nor can you force free will to accept a cause for the choices made no matter how much you wish it to be so.
SO, you believe in pre-determinism and I believe in free will and never shall they mix.
I make the choices I make because I make the choices I make . . . there is no WHY.
Every time there is a why, there is not a choice but a ONLY pre-determined action.
[quote]forlife wrote:
It is so symptomatic of people today to look outside of themselves for a cause for what they have chosen to do and to become so that they can escape consequence/responsibility of those choices.
Don’t confuse any of this with my personal pespective. I’m arguing from YOUR viewpoint that god created everything. Since I don’t believe in “god(s)”, I’m not bound by the logical inconsistency of claiming that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being made people, the majority of whom are going to hell.[/quote]
If you don’t believe in god(s), then quite trying to define my God by your terms . . . 
god, as you understand god, made all of man’s choices for man by creating differences in their moral agency - God, as I know Him, made man free to choose whatever man will choose free of all constraining causes.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I make the choices I make because I make the choices I make . . . there is no WHY.
[/quote]
You are aware that ALL the evidence points the other way aren’t you? Take Terry Schiavo for instance. Were she the recipient of the free will you speak of, she probably would have got up and got a drink of water after they removed her feeding tube. Similarly, no one would ever get a DUI, they would just choose to be sober the minute they got pulled over. There is a very clear causal relationship between the stimulus received by our brains and the way we behave.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Well, we might have a problem. Since I believe in God I might not be smart enough to vote for the best ticket. My low IQ might be an inhibitory factor in the polling process. Shucks and double darn for you![/quote]
Everyone get ready for Palin-Jesus in 2012.
Just got caught up reading what everyone had to say.
I would like to request that the Christians on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are just angry” or “you don’t want to hear my beliefs”. Someone being angry or not has nothing to do with the truth. Since we are talking about the truth, I see these accusations as nothing more than drop down from the reasoning, cognitive level to the feeling level. I would hate to think that all there is to believing or not believing in god-fearing religions is feelings, because that would imply that truth according to measurable reality does not matter.
Also, no one even tried to answer two questions:
-
What would you think of God if you held him to the same standards he holds you (so far the only answer has been “I can’t do that because I’m a mortal”. Don’t bother responding to this question if that is your answer because it’s been said and is not an answer, but a reason NOT TO ANSWER)
-
And the one that even Push didn’t answer.
Tell me how these things do not contradict each other. Go ahead and put them into whatever context you feel they were meant. They still contradict each other, even when figuring for context.
in 1 corinthians 14 it outlines that love is not jealous, proud, easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs.
John 4:16 “god is love…”
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 20:5, (note that here he apparently is keeping record of wrongs and punshing the children of those who committed them. Even if the children themselves did not commit wrong, they will still be punished)
Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret-it leads only to evil (Psalm 37:8).
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult (Proverbs 12:16).
And yet:
Psalm 2:12 (New International Version)
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
It is sad when you cannot hold the omnipotent, omniscient creator to the same standards he apparently hold you to BECAUSE HE WOULD FAIL.
Pushme so by saying that you will not hold your god responsible for the way he created so many that he knew ahead of time that he would destroy because he knew which direction they would pick with the free will that he gave them, you are in essense saying “Yeah it doesn’t really make any sense to me. Infact, it does seem wrong, but who am I to say that I wouldn’t have made the same decisions as this god because I wouldn’t feel right destroying so many? That is wrong and arrogant. I can’t think like that.” ?
And also, let’s stop talking about the present. Instead, focus on the time before the creation. That’s the time frame I’ve been talking about. It’s not like god was forced into creating. Apparently he chose to. Therefore, anything that he’s doing right now is irrevelent to the argument.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
…I would like to request that the Christians on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are just angry” or “you don’t want to hear my beliefs”. …
I would like to request that the atheists and agnostics on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are a fairy tale believer” or “you don’t want to hear my scientific superiority”.[/quote]
Agreed. Flat out accusations like that are not the same thing as simply stating your argument relating to truths and they detract from people being open to ideas.
[quote]pookie wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I have some ideas but I’m worried to fuckin death to discuss them because I’m scared half out of my mind you’ll dismiss me as one who lacks scientific standing.
If you would put half the fucking effort towards an actual discussion as you do bullshitting, dodging and attempting lame gags that are no doubt highly amusing to you, this thread would be so much more interesting.
What are you afraid of?[/quote]
Nice. And well said, sir.
And props to oleena for starting this thread. I loves me a good ole atheist vs creationist debate <grinnin>
Interesting. Did god exist before the creation?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Pushme so by saying that you will not hold your god responsible for the way he created so many that he knew ahead of time that he would destroy because he knew which direction they would pick with the free will that he gave them, you are in essense saying “Yeah it doesn’t really make any sense to me. Infact, it does seem wrong, but who am I to say that I wouldn’t have made the same decisions as this god because I wouldn’t feel right destroying so many? That is wrong and arrogant. I can’t think like that.” ?
And also, let’s stop talking about the present. Instead, focus on the time before the creation. That’s the time frame I’ve been talking about. It’s not like god was forced into creating. Apparently he chose to. Therefore, anything that he’s doing right now is irrevelent to the argument.
Oleena-me,
There was no time before creation. Time IS part of creation. It did not exist “before” creation.
[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
There was no time before creation. Time IS part of creation. It did not exist “before” creation.
[/quote]
And how long ago did this creation occur?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Cowboy_69 wrote:
Nice. And well said, sir.
So says a bullshitter of epic proportions. <grinnin`>
[/quote]
What I find very tell-tale here push is that you spend the majority of your efforts spewing silly and arguably funny put-downs such as the above while failing to directly and rationally address the real questions being posed here 
Keep it up, it is definitely entertaining <grinnin`>