How Much Do You Know About Christianity?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]mbm693 wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:

I make the choices I make because I make the choices I make . . . there is no WHY.

You are aware that ALL the evidence points the other way aren’t you? Take Terry Schiavo for instance. Were she the recipient of the free will you speak of, she probably would have got up and got a drink of water after they removed her feeding tube. Similarly, no one would ever get a DUI, they would just choose to be sober the minute they got pulled over. There is a very clear causal relationship between the stimulus received by our brains and the way we behave.
[/quote]

Wow- thanks for going there.

And please understand that this is stated within the context of my beliefs . . . . Therein lies the secret of the answer I posited for Oleena’s question - which she has studiously ignored.

When one lacks the capacity for exercising their God-given free will (whether due to age, damage or defect) there is no longer moral culpability. We already acknowledge this in our own legal system - mentally handicapped individuals are not held responsible for actions they commit that would be considered illegal if conducted by a person of normal function . . .

However - when someone ingests something knowing that it will affect their functionality - their FREE WILL CHOICE was made prior to any subsequent illegal action - and they are so held as being culpable for those actions under our legal system.

So you have only illustrated the truth I pointed out pages ago that each individual will be judged on their own life and the choices they made for which they are culpable before God.

NOW – – Speaking directly to your illustrations, free will does not negate resultant consequences of choices from being applied. Free will is not a magic “avoid bad things” escape card - it is the agency whereby you are free to make choices.

Where did you people get your concept of free will?

322

[quote]Oleena wrote:

Also, no one even tried to answer two questions:

  1. What would you think of God if you held him to the same standards he holds you (so far the only answer has been “I can’t do that because I’m a mortal”. Don’t bother responding to this question if that is your answer because it’s been said and is not an answer, but a reason NOT TO ANSWER)

  2. And the one that even Push didn’t answer.

Tell me how these things do not contradict each other. Go ahead and put them into whatever context you feel they were meant. They still contradict each other, even when figuring for context.

in 1 corinthians 14 it outlines that love is not jealous, proud, easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs.

John 4:16 “god is love…”

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 20:5, (note that here he apparently is keeping record of wrongs and punshing the children of those who committed them. Even if the children themselves did not commit wrong, they will still be punished)

Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret-it leads only to evil (Psalm 37:8).

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult (Proverbs 12:16).

And yet:

Psalm 2:12 (New International Version)

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

It is sad when you cannot hold the omnipotent, omniscient creator to the same standards he apparently hold you to BECAUSE HE WOULD FAIL.
[/quote]

LOL - way to change the questions and avoid the answer I did give to your original question yet again.

OK NEW QUESTION ONE: I do hold God to the same standards he holds me to - where is the problem with that?

NEW QUESTION TWO: I get a kick out of this one . . . basically your point boils down to limiting God to one Characteristic - here’s the construct:

God is Love
Love is not Jealous
God cannot be Jealous, because He is Love
God said he was Jealous - so there is a logical failure.

There is a breakdown in your construct though . . .

Jealousy is not always a negative as we use it today - there is Jealous for that which we do not possess and Jealous to retain that which is rightfully ours - the Hebrew word being “qin’ah” for the OT, and the Greek word “zelos” - both words are of the idea of “heat” or “warmth” - obviously, zelos works into the root construction of our word zealous as well as jealous. The idea of the word jealous is that of PASSIONATE DESIRE FOR HAVING something - the negative connotation being for obtaining that which is not ours, and the positive connotation being for retaining that which is ours.

You also forgot an important “jealousy” verse from the NT, namely, 2 Corinthians 11:2, where Paul (yes, the same guy who said love was not jealous) states that HE was “JEALOUS WITH A GODLY JEALOUSY” . . . even Paul understood that a distinction of connotation was needed.

When Paul said Love was not Jealous - he means Love was not PASSIONATELY DESIROUS of OBTAINING that WHICH WAS NOT ITS OWN - Love can be jealous in a positive light for those things which it does possess - and that is the context of the OT use where God said that he was a Jealous God - he was PASSIONATELY DESIROUS of RETAINING the loving relationship between himself and Israel - which love Israel was now giving to idols.

I cannot believe no one ever gave you the simple explanation of this . . . your entire argument is simply based on English words that do not convey the full meaning intended and does not account for interpreting Scripture by other scriptures . . .

So I answered both of your questions and I do hold my God to the same high standards he holds for me . . .so, no, there is no FAIL on his part. . . .

323

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:

…I would like to request that the Christians on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are just angry” or “you don’t want to hear my beliefs”. …

I would like to request that the atheists and agnostics on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are a fairy tale believer” or “you don’t want to hear my scientific superiority”.[/quote]

Excellent request!

324

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Cowboy_69 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Cowboy_69 wrote:
Nice. And well said, sir.

So says a bullshitter of epic proportions. <grinnin`>

What I find very tell-tale here push is that you spend the majority of your efforts spewing silly and arguably funny put-downs such as the above while failing to directly and rationally address the real questions being posed here :smiley:

Keep it up, it is definitely entertaining <grinnin`>

What I find very tell-tale here, cowpuppy, is that you spend the majority of your efforts spewing silly and arguably funny bullshit such as the above and you do this almost exclusively on SAMA and never crawl out there to display your incredibly deep intellect anywhere else while failing to directly and rationally ever address the real questions being posed here :smiley:

Keep it up, it is definitely entertaining <grinnin`>
[/quote]

Ahh push ya old dog…hard to teach an old new tricks eh? :wink: But to directly and rationally address your real questions here :D…

A.) I chose to engage primarily in posting in SAMA simply because I am a cyclist (as I`ve stated many times) and thus would have little to contribute in terms of lifting wisdom in the other forums. My lifting experience undoubtedly pales in comparison to many posters here; to partake in discussions in relevant forums would be arrogance at best :smiley:

B.) While I do respect Oleenas valiant efforts in this thread, Ive learned LONG ago not to engage in the sort of arguments she is sparking here. It is a respectable but ultimately go-nowhere effort IMO.

Having said that, I do very much relish hearing and observing what you creationists will resort to in order to justify your beliefs. That is the reason I am here :smiley:

326

So Push… are you the Crip in that analogy, or the Blood?

328

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
So Push… are you the Crip in that analogy, or the Blood?

Whatever butters your bread, [/quote]

That’s a pretty easy riddle. A knife butters my bread. A knife also slashes and stabs, resulting in blood.

They’ve got to do something about the diacritical character coding on this site. None of the graves or acutes or tildes or cedillas are working, and I can’t tell whether you called me “my friend of agnostic” or “my friend of silver non-directional movements in response to stimuli.”

Irritating.

330

Well, I’m glad we cleared that up, because my third guess, “my friend of a stick of silver nitrate” made absolutely no sense at all.

331

I have gone over those verses myself; numerous times when I was younger, infact (that’s why I knew where the contradictions existed and where to look for them many years after the last time I picked up a Bible). I could go ahead and post the way that I interpret each of them, but you would inevitably decided that one of those interpretations didn’t fit your interpretations, and therefore the entire argument was invalid. So I figured, let’s skip the bullshit and have you interpret them.

If you’re not going to, and instead are going to make baby references at me, I’m going to assume that it’s because you can’t do it without making the scripture contradict itself any better than I can.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:

…Also, no one even tried to answer two questions:

  1. What would you think of God if you held him to the same standards he holds you (so far the only answer has been “I can’t do that because I’m a mortal”. Don’t bother responding to this question if that is your answer because it’s been said and is not an answer, but a reason NOT TO ANSWER)

  2. And the one that even Push didn’t answer.

Tell me how these things do not contradict each other. Go ahead and put them into whatever context you feel they were meant. They still contradict each other, even when figuring for context.

in 1 corinthians 14 it outlines that love is not jealous, proud, easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs.

John 4:16 “god is love…”

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 20:5, (note that here he apparently is keeping record of wrongs and punshing the children of those who committed them. Even if the children themselves did not commit wrong, they will still be punished)

Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret-it leads only to evil (Psalm 37:8).

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult (Proverbs 12:16).

And yet:

Psalm 2:12 (New International Version)

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

It is sad when you cannot hold the omnipotent, omniscient creator to the same standards he apparently hold you to BECAUSE HE WOULD FAIL.

Oleena-me, instead of sitting in your high-chair and asking for Pushdaddy to spoon feed your pureed carrots, may I suggest you pick up a Bible and a Bible commentary, or several commentaries if you like, and go exploring for the answers you so earnestly seek here.

Guarantee you’ll learn more when you put forth an effort on your own.

Please don’t take the high-chair/carrots thing as being mean. Tough love, baby.[/quote]

332

[quote]Cowboy_69 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Cowboy_69 wrote:

B.) While I do respect Oleenas valiant efforts in this thread, Ive learned LONG ago not to engage in the sort of arguments she is sparking here. It is a respectable but ultimately go-nowhere effort IMO.

Having said that, I do very much relish hearing and observing what you creationists will resort to in order to justify your beliefs. That is the reason I am here :smiley:
[/quote]

For the record, I agree and disagree with the above. I don’t believe that one conversation changes a person’s opinion. But I have seen numerous conversations over the years change many people’s minds. It’s a lengthy process and there will be no resolution today or tomorrow.

333

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:

…I would like to request that the Christians on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are just angry” or “you don’t want to hear my beliefs”. …

I would like to request that the atheists and agnostics on this forum restrain from throwing out accusations such as “you are a fairy tale believer” or “you don’t want to hear my scientific superiority”.

Agreed. Flat out accusations like that are not the same thing as simply stating your argument relating to truths and they detract from people being open to ideas.

So why did I have to post that? Why didn’t you post it along with your exhortation of civility?[/quote]

Because so far I haven’t had to resort to calling anyone an angry baby or any back-handed insults in order to support my arguments :slight_smile:

334

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Wow- thanks for going there.

And please understand that this is stated within the context of my beliefs . . . . Therein lies the secret of the answer I posited for Oleena’s question - which she has studiously ignored.

[/quote]
At no point have I seen you contradict anything that I’ve said. I’ve seen you say that you don’t feel that I understood what you wrote, but as far as I can see, nothing that you’ve wrote has been an answer to the question I proposed. I already stated that the concept of free will is irrevelent to my question because god already knew which way his creation would decide with the free will he gave it.

I am making one assumption here that is not clearly backed up in the Bible, and only one. That assumption is that god had a choice in making the universe. BEFORE he created anyone, before he created sin, before he created free will, he knew that what he was creating would result in 1000s upon 1000s burning in hell for eternity. Whether or not his creation has free will is not important because he already knew what they would decide before he brought them into existance, and apparently he had a choice about whether or not to bring them into existance. I am not talking about the moment after the first human decided to sin or what god did after that.

What do you have to say about the original choice he made to bring all of humanity into existance knowing BEFORE HE DID IT that he was going to destroy it several times and burn 1000s upon 1000s for eternity in hell.

335

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Interesting. Did god exist before the creation?

What do you think? Do you think that a God who was capable of creating time could exist outside of it?

[/quote]

What does it matter what I think? I am clearly wrong about a lot of my thoughts about the creation and existance of the world, and giving you a chance to tell me how I’m wrong.

So, answer the question. Do you think that a God who was capable of creating time could exist outside of it? All that is needed for this is a yes or a no. Anything else is dodging and chickening out.

336

[quote]Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:

Wow- thanks for going there.

And please understand that this is stated within the context of my beliefs . . . . Therein lies the secret of the answer I posited for Oleena’s question - which she has studiously ignored.

At no point have I seen you contradict anything that I’ve said. I’ve seen you say that you don’t feel that I understood what you wrote, but as far as I can see, nothing that you’ve wrote has been an answer to the question I proposed. I already stated that the concept of free will is irrevelent to my question because god already knew which was his creation would decide with the free will he gave it.

I am making one assumption here that is no clearly backed up in the Bible, and only one. That assumption is that god had a choice in making the universe. BEFORE he created anyone, before he created sin, before he created free will, he knew that what he was creating would result in 1000s upon 1000s burning in hell for eternity. Whether or not his creation has free will is not important because he already knew what they would decide before he brought them into existance, and apparently he had a choice about whether or not to bring them into existance. I am not talking about the moment after the first human decided to sin or what god did after that.

What do you have to say about the original choice he made to bring all of humanity into existance knowing BEFORE HE DID IT that he was going to destroy it several times and burn 1000s upon 1000s for eternity in hell.

[/quote]

You have a very screwed up idea of what free will is. God knows what will happen with each choice we make but it is up to us to choose. With the exception of the few times he intervened in the bible he has stayed out of it and let us run our own lives.

337

One last question for everyone:

So far have you seen anyone answer any of my questions with an answer that can’t be summed up into “I don’t know and I can’t question god”? (just wondering if I missed something)

338

[quote]Oleena wrote:
One last question for everyone:

So far have you seen anyone answer any of my questions with an answer that can’t be summed up into “I don’t know and I can’t question god”? (just wondering if I missed something)[/quote]

I already answered one of your questions. If you are really interested please take some time to look through the other 5000 threads before creating another one asking the same questions.

339

[quote]John S. wrote:
Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:

Wow- thanks for going there.

And please understand that this is stated within the context of my beliefs . . . . Therein lies the secret of the answer I posited for Oleena’s question - which she has studiously ignored.

At no point have I seen you contradict anything that I’ve said. I’ve seen you say that you don’t feel that I understood what you wrote, but as far as I can see, nothing that you’ve wrote has been an answer to the question I proposed. I already stated that the concept of free will is irrevelent to my question because god already knew which was his creation would decide with the free will he gave it.

I am making one assumption here that is no clearly backed up in the Bible, and only one. That assumption is that god had a choice in making the universe. BEFORE he created anyone, before he created sin, before he created free will, he knew that what he was creating would result in 1000s upon 1000s burning in hell for eternity. Whether or not his creation has free will is not important because he already knew what they would decide before he brought them into existance, and apparently he had a choice about whether or not to bring them into existance. I am not talking about the moment after the first human decided to sin or what god did after that.

What do you have to say about the original choice he made to bring all of humanity into existance knowing BEFORE HE DID IT that he was going to destroy it several times and burn 1000s upon 1000s for eternity in hell.

You have a very screwed up idea of what free will is. God knows what will happen with each choice we make but it is up to us to choose. With the exception of the few times he intervened in the bible he has stayed out of it and let us run our own lives.[/quote]

Is God omniscient (as in all-knowing; as in he knew what each of us were going to do with our free will before we came into existance)?

Omniscient also means that God knew what we would decide to do with our free wills BEFORE he created us. What does it matter if he backed off after he created us? He still had the choice of whether or not to create us (otherwise he would not be omnipotent) and the knowledge of which direction we would decide to go with the free will he gave us (otherwise he would not be omniscient).

340

[quote]John S. wrote:
Oleena wrote:
One last question for everyone:

So far have you seen anyone answer any of my questions with an answer that can’t be summed up into “I don’t know and I can’t question god”? (just wondering if I missed something)

I already answered one of your questions. If you are really interested please take some time to look through the other 5000 threads before creating another one asking the same questions. [/quote]

You did not answer my question. You stated that I had a messed up idea of what free will is, and I reinterated that free will is not even revelant to or a part of my question unless we are talking about whether or not god had free will.

It seems to be very hard for all of the god-fearing people answering my questions to imagine that there was a time before humanity even existed during which god had a choice about whether or not to create humanity, and AT THAT TIME GOD ALREADY KNEW HOW IT WOULD TURN OUT IF HE DID BECAUSE HE IS OMNISCIENT. At that point it was not in human hands to decide which way humans would go because THERE WERE NO HUMANS.

All you addressed was the time after god created humans. I am asking you to address HIS DECISION TO CREATE HUMANS IN THE FIRST PLACE.