[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
and again - you miss my point entirely . . . is it fun just ignoring me altogether so you can reiterate your same view over and over?[/quote]
Have you considered that I understand your point, but you aren’t taking the time to understand mine? Your entire post tells me that you’re not grasping what I am trying to say. Seriously, just take a step back and listen for a second.
[quote We are agents of free will, open to choose any option WITHOUT CONSTRAINING CAUSES!
[/quote]
Then answer this question:
Given that you are open to choose any option without constraining causes, WHY DO YOU MAKE THE CHOICES YOU DO?
Is there a reason you make the choices you do, or are your choices entirely random?
Your choices are made by YOU, whatever YOU means. And since god made YOU, god is ultimately responsible for the choices you make.
Maybe this will help.
Think about Jesus, the only perfect person to have lived.
What was it about Jesus that caused him to make the right choice, each and every time?
Did he see the world differently? Did he have more willpower? Was his love greater than anyone else’s?
WHY did he make the choices he did? What were the underlying attributes that enabled him to make those choices instead of choosing to sin instead?
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” ~ Rush.
Damn you, Pat! Damn you! I was getting ready to post that!!![/quote]
I love that song.
Odd that you would be quoting Free Will, though, as the song seems to be advising against putting one’s faith in a host of holy horrors, celestial voices, and phantom fears.
Here’s another great Rush song that even more Peart-inent.
Now it’s come to this
It’s like we’re back in the Dark Ages
From the Middle East to the Middle West
It’s a world of superstition
Now it’s come to this
Wide-eyed armies of the faithful
From the Middle East to the Middle West
Pray, and pass the ammunition
So many people think that way
You gotta watch what you say
To them and them, and others too
Who don’t seem to see to things the way you do
We can only grow the way the wind blows
on a bare and weathered shore
We can only bow to the here and now
In our elemental war
We can only go the way the wind blows
We can only bow to the here and now
Or be broken down blow by blow
Now it’s come to this
Hollow speeches of mass deception
From the Middle East to the Middle West
Like crusaders in a holy alliance
Now it’s come to this
Like we’re back in the dark ages
From the Middle East to the Middle West
It’s a plague that resists our science
It seems to leave them partly blind
And they leave no child behind
While evil spirits haunt their sleep
While shepherds bless and count their sheep
Like the solitary pine
On a bare wind blasted shore
We can only grow the way the wind blows
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Please do present any evidence that sentience is a function of matter.[/quote]
We live in a material universe. Sentience is observed in that universe. We know of nothing else existing that could explain sentience, ergo, sentience is a function of (properly organized) matter. You can argue that it’s not evidence, but it is the best realistic (ie, no fairies or far-away imaginary lands involved) explanation there currently is.
There’s also that odd contradiction: You think I don’t find the brain mysterious or wonderful enough, yet my “not-so-wonderful” brain is capable of sentience; while your magical, wonderful, infinitely complex brain is incapable of it without a supernatural soul providing the special effects. If the brain is as fantastic as you claim it to be, why can’t it produce sentience on it’s own? Furthermore, you keep claiming that I lack evidence - when all I claim is the plainly evident - but I have yet to see you produce your shreds of evidence (that must be numerous enough to clothe an emperor, no doubt). So, where is your evidence for the soul and the divine and all the other imaginary stuff you see everywhere?
You wouldn’t be holding me up to a standard you can’t meet yourself, now would you? 'Cause that might be construed as a wee bit hypocritical.
[quote]Of course, you can’t. It’s embarrassing, I know. And so you resort to the above tactics.
The rest of your post is similarly misleading.[/quote]
I’ve seen people unable to understand complexity; it’s a rare occasion to meet someone who’s perplexed by simplicity.
[quote]It is so symptomatic of people today to look outside of themselves for a cause for what they have chosen to do and to become so that they can escape consequence/responsibility of those choices.
[/quote]
Don’t confuse any of this with my personal pespective. I’m arguing from YOUR viewpoint that god created everything. Since I don’t believe in “god(s)”, I’m not bound by the logical inconsistency of claiming that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being made people, the majority of whom are going to hell.
The perfect lyrics to describe the atheistic evolutionistic mindset, IMVHO.[/quote]
If you liked that one, you’ll love this one.
I’ve got my own moral compass to steer by
A guiding star beats a spirit in the sky
And all the preaching voices -
Empty vessels of dreams so loud
As they move among the crowd
Fools and thieves are well disguised
In the temple and market place
Like a stone in the river
Against the floods of spring
I will quietly resist
Like the willows in the wind
Or the cliffs along the ocean
I will quietly resist
I don’t have faith in faith
I don’t believe in belief
You can call me faithless
I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that’s faith enough for me
I’ve got my own spirit level for balance
To tell if my choice is leaning up or down
And all the shouting voices
Try to throw me off my course
Some by sermon, some by force
Fools and thieves are dangerous
In the temple and market place
Like a forest bows to winter
Beneath the deep white silence
I will quietly resist
Like a flower in the desert
That only blooms at night
I will quietly resist
[quote]pat wrote:
So youâ??re just an empiricist. Thatâ??s all, if itâ??s not observable or measurable it does not exist. Thatâ??s why science will be forever flawed.[/quote]
If you can’t detect something’s existence, how do you know then that it doesn’t simply not exist?
What’s your criteria for accepting God as real and Batman as imaginary? People have been inventing religions for millenia. What makes yours real and others false?
Science might not be perfect, but it does what it does very well. What’s your alternative for someone who’s skeptical refuses to believe just because he’s told to believe?
Now you’re just being dumb. What color is September? How honest is my toaster? Just because you can make up non-sensical questions, it doesn’t mean science is lacking.
Where is that thought then, and what evidence have you of that place? Computers makes billions of decisions everyday in countless automated systems. Do they need “souls” to make those decisions?
What is it with you guys and infinity? Something is either infinite or it isn’t. Any arbitrarily large number is a large number but it’s not infinite. Any single object doesn’t have and infinite amount of properties or attributes.
That’s an odd argument. If you can’t make a convincing argument for your own existence; and even less so for the existence of God, then why believe in him?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The fact of the matter is you have offered NOTHING except a devout fervor that science will someday come up with the answer. Weak, man, very weak. I don’t want to be mean, but for all your bluster and parading, when we get to brass tacks, you are nothing more than a man (child?) of faith.[/quote]
What else is going to come up with the answers? Should we expect your bait-and-switch combo of professing scientific inquiry only to later produce thinly-disguised apologetics to provide true answers?
You can make stuff up and say “I believe the world is thus!” all you want; but it doesn’t get you nearer to any truth. But that’s ok, a lot of people aren’t really interested in truth, and haven’t the mental fortitude required to accept the “we don’t know yet” or “we might actually never know” answers. For those people, fairy tales provide a soothing comfort.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
they need us, the elite, to rule them![/quote]
Right, cause who wants a smart, knowledgeable person holding office? If your car breaks down, you like having a great mechanic; if you’re about to undergo surgery, you surely wouldn’t mind being told that your doctor is an elite surgeon.
But for political office? NO! Let’s elect drooling morons to the job.
And then wonder in amazement at how badly the government is performing.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
pookie wrote:
pushharder wrote:
The fact of the matter is you have offered NOTHING except a devout fervor that science will someday come up with the answer. Weak, man, very weak. I don’t want to be mean, but for all your bluster and parading, when we get to brass tacks, you are nothing more than a man (child?) of faith.
What else is going to come up with the answers? Should we expect your bait-and-switch combo of professing scientific inquiry only to later produce thinly-disguised apologetics to provide true answers?
You can make stuff up and say “I believe the world is thus!” all you want; but it doesn’t get you nearer to any truth. But that’s ok, a lot of people aren’t really interested in truth, and haven’t the mental fortitude required to accept the “we don’t know yet” or “we might actually never know” answers. For those people, fairy tales provide a soothing comfort.
Do you use common furniture wax or automobile wax on your halo of secularism? It’s blindingly luminescent and I’m so jealous.[/quote]
Unfortunately, I tried Bikini Wax and all my hair fell out. The brilliance is the reflection off my lustrous pate.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
pookie wrote:
pushharder wrote:
they need us, the elite, to rule them!
Right, cause who wants a smart, knowledgeable person holding office? If your car breaks down, you like having a great mechanic; if you’re about to undergo surgery, you surely wouldn’t mind being told that your doctor is an elite surgeon.
But for political office? NO! Let’s elect drooling morons to the job.
And then wonder in amazement at how badly the government is performing.
Pookie for President?
Pookie for Prime Minister?
Pookie FTW!
Yes, materialists/secularists are the answer! They’re the only smart guys around. They are WORTHY. Messiahs.[/quote]
If I get Varq as my running mate, will you vote for our ticket?
I mean, come on, his avatar holds a gun, so you know he’s good people.