I pay $95 for 45 50mg tabs
welp, 20 years ago there was like 1 gym in the capital of the country and maybe 30 ppl going there… i said - average teen IN the gym, not in school…
15 years back there were maybe 3 gyms and 150ppl total training in the whole country… i remember i saw a GIRL in the gym once, in just usual baggy training pants, and i couldnt do shit because of my boner 
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35euros(40-50 usd?) for 100x10mg pills here.
Actually I think 200 is around the avg. What’s more that 200-220 isn’t a lean 200-220… look up the avg BF percentage, bicep measurement and waist circumference of a normal adult
I’m 5’6 or so… 220lbs lean would equate to me being the size of a professional bodybuilder. I’m considered “muscular” compared to the average Joe and I’m only around 170lbs
Is it? THere’s only ONE teen in my college gym who weighs 220lbs lean, the guy is around 6’3 and has a massive frame
Avg height of an Australian male is 5 ft 10 and a half. To be lean at 5 foot 10 and a half and 220lbs isn’t average by any means. Remember the avg dude now only has a TT of around 450-500ng/dl, this is equitable to injecting say 75mg test E/wk
How big do you think you’d be had you never cycled… but ran 75mg test E/wk for years
I also lived on a farm. The labour is difficult and more akin to endurance work with a focus on maintaining some semblance of power output for prolonged periods of time. Short bursts of anaerobic activity are required, but the work isn’t going to get you big. It’ll make you defined and very lean though, as the amount of calories burnt during a hard day on the farm will be enormous.
Farmwork is the reason as to why I was able to deadlift 130kg for reps at a BW of around 150 for my first ever attempt at properly deadlifting, you acquire decent relative strength doing farm work. Got that number up to around 215kg over time, but I don’t deadlift anymore following my hernia op and I’m not sure if I want to anymore either
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To be fair, @hankthetank89 said this:
I think it’s totally believable that when you have such strong sorting mechanisms for people who train regularly that only people with a decent amount of strength and with a highe bodyweight indicating bulking would be there. He also said that these people aren’t lean, actually exactly this was his point:
So I don’t think hank is necessarily wrong here, just that his circumstances differ so much from Northern America or more western countries that this holds up.
If I subtract all the non-seriously strength/BB training people from my gym, I’m left with a group that resembles closely what he describes.
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idk I go to gym with a friend of mine who is a bodybuilder with very good genetics. The dude is 5’5, around 158lbs and around 10-12% BF. He looks far above average. his muscle bellies/insertions and genetic penchant for vascularity are off the rails. The other guy I go with is the 220lb+ guy I was referring to. The vast majority of 5 foot 10 teenagers (avg height) who take working out very seriously still won’t hit 100kg lean unless they take shit. I could literally be 100kg of lean, mean pure beef and aesthetically I still wouldn’t look as impressive as this guy
I myself have bad genetics. I’m stronger than both of them (could deadlift more than both… probably not anymore, can bench/strict press far heavier weights too). I look broad, but my muscle bellies are just “flat” and my proportions aren’t great. I have small wrists, a small frame, a wide waist and broad shoulders. I’ve been told I look like a dense block.
Deadlifting never got me big, and I could deadlift around 215kg for a 1rm (respectful for a bw of at the time 73kg), I can bench press around 115kg (I’ll be checking my 1rm next week), strict press around 65kg etc. These standards mean nothing, I haven’t found a heavy correlation between 1rm and size, rather volume/more sets appears to be what elicits a hypertrophic response.
I see no need to require arbitrary strength goals. If I train for years on end and take my diet/routine very seriously, that’s good enough. Regular training = adaptation, whether it be 1RM increase, the ability to increase volume, sets etc.
If I keep training the way I am currently (switched from primarily powerlifting to high volume) chances are I’ll never be squatting 180kg. I’d rather keep increasing sets and reps. I’d rather squat 100kg for 6x12 than 180 kg for 5x3
I also prefer lunges, front squats and split squats for leg aesthetics comparative to back squats. I’ve never been particularly impressed with aesthetic enhancement mediated through low bar back squats. I also find SLDL/RDL far superior for inducing hypertrophy as compared to the conventional deadlift; and you only have to lift a fraction of the weight.
I can do RDL with 110kg for sets of 20 reps. I’d rather do this than 160kg conventional for sets of 8-10
I prefer lateral raises/upright rows and rear delt flies #shoulderimpingement to OHP. I’ve found the “big three” to be very lacklustre at gauging gym performance or inducing the results I desire.
Say you can do weighted dips with 4 plates attached, weighted pullups with 60kg, you can leg press like 600lbs for sets of 15-20, you can max out machines on various “bodybuilding exercises”… but you don’t squat, bench or deadlift and on an attempt you can only squat like 110kg. Motor recruitment patterns aren’t engrained for that specific movement, but in no way shape or form does this equate to not being ready for AAS.
The endurance athlete argument also comes to light. @hankthetank89 you mentioned earlier for combat sports there comes a time wherein getting stronger equates to unnecessary effort. What if you’re a professional combat athlete, is there really a need to be squatting 330lbs as a featherweight boxer?
Apologise for being pedantic, rather I have qualms with arbitrary requirements. If you’re an adult, are aware of the risks, know how to train/diet and are mentally sound enough to mediate a potentially lifelong decision like this that may be associated with serious consequences down the line I believe one is good to go
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Hank Never Said lean, even posted pictures to the contrary. Lean in the sense of 10% is clearly not average but lean in the sense of normal people 18-20% is average at 200-220 for a seriously training guy at 5’10-6’2
You are in a very special situation. All seriously healthy guys i train with strive for the latter or more.
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I forget you’re not American. We look different in HS over here 
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No, of course not. As i mentioned and @lordgains also explained to you from what i said - much of what i wrote was 15-20 years old approach ran by oldschool lifters in very poor and backwards country. I explained my training mentality towards steroids to a different person because he said that i think a bit weird, so i just explained WHY i think how i think about steroids.
I never said i agree now with anything i grew up with
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I do tend to go for high reps/volume nowadays. Strength is still increasing at an equitable rate. I assume being able to incline bench 80kg for 20 reps means my 1rm or 5rm is considerably higher, could probably do working sets at moderate volume with 90-100kg if I felt like doing so. I don’t like working with weights like that on the bench press though (like 5rm) as I find it gives my shoulders/elbows and wrists a beating.
Same goes with say… RDL’s. If I can do sets of 18-25 with 100-120kg I assume my 1rm is a hell of a lot higher (likely its given my DL 1rm).
From the literature I’ve read, gains in strength/mass are equitable with lighter weight. The difference between 180kg squat for like 6x2 vs 100kg for 6x12 in terms of mass built appears to be minimal to none. Rather the higher reps/sets equate to a higher chance of burnout/isn’t economically efficient
The only exercises I still go heavy on are barbell rows, seated rows, shoulder press (sometimes), DB chest press, weighted pushups and dips. I’ll start doing weighted pullups when my surgical scars no longer give me trouble and discomfort from hanging on the bar.
Loving reading @hankthetank89 perspective here (insert popcorn meme). I totally get it, I have some similar thoughts. AAS is a drug and has profound benefits and risks, these guys on this site just make you aware of it. I like their thoughtfulness more than other forums, these are real guys.
I’m with @unreal24278 on this one. Arbitrary strength goals equate to strength, not size and esthetics typically. I’m 5’8" and around 185 now, don’t look like a roid freak but definitely get a raised eye brow. Before my cut I was at 205, heaviest I’ve ever been and you could definitely tell I was enhanced, not sure if I loved that. I can lift more than bigger guys and I see plenty of smaller looking guys out benching me. Biomechanics and genetics play a huge role. Everyone has their limits they will never be able to exceed. I believe I’ve reached mine but continue to train for hypertrophy, which will not increase my 1 rm. Since I’ve been training as a BB my whole life and haven’t concentrated on the big three here, I’m very strong in certain movements that would put others to shame, but can’t get my bench over 300 for the life of me. I’ve trained enough and have enough education to know that this is it. Might be able to get a few more points over the years but it’ll never be over 350.
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That might be. I think there are different reasons to train in the 3-6 rep range than muscle building.
For me for example, 3-6 Reps is highly motivating on the big lifts while I wouldn’t ever squat if I knew I had to do 10 Reps.
I also think there is a good argument to be made that progressing on 5 Reps is easier than on 10 Reps as the CNS component is bigger and form is easier to keep in check with lower Reps as the stabilizing musculature is better suited to stabilize for low Reps.
For example if I squat 350 for 5, my trunk muscles keep my back stable throughout the set. In contrast, when I squat 225 for 10, it is very difficult to keep breathing in check and to keep abs and lower back and especially small hip musculature from giving up their tension as the set gets longer.
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Dang what a story Hank. That was one rough childhood.
I think the part you are missing with a lot of us here is the gym, bodybuilding, experimenting with Test and AAS is a hobby a recreational activity not a vocation. I believe there are only a few guys here on this forum taking the amounts you’ve been taking and I believe they do compete.
When you say take steroids for nothing.
If I may ask what are your thoughts on muscle memory?
For example if I do a cycle and take my 17" biceps to 20" when my cycle is over will it not be easier to get my biceps back up to 20" do to muscle memory? Or can I only achieve 20" biceps when cycling?
Im not missing that. I understand that. Its just that one person said that i differ a lot, so i explained what are my views and how if i am strange to him, he is also strange to me and i explained why. All in all - its cool that people have different goals, i have no problem with that.
I dont think anything is left once you are done with steroids. We have our genetic limit, and then we take drugs to get past that and then we take MORE drugs, to get even more past the point we were on the doses before. I believe that we react on doses differently as in - some people get more with less, some get less with a lot, etc, so comparing doses doesnt hold any meaning. But i believe that our limits are dose dependant to some point. Im not saying 10g of test gives 10times more than 1g of test, but i do believe that 5 grams of gear total DO MORE than 1 gram of gear total. And how big your biceps can get is dose dependant to what each drug does to you. And by reducing the dose, your size and strenght WILL drop.
That is why i dont advocate cycling, because you are what you can do now, not what you could do 3 months ago when you had a better cycle or a blast(in my opinion).
I like what King Kamali said : “You are done when you are done”.
So to tldr answer to your question - unless you trained and dieted like shit on a cycle, no way in hell you will ever reach same size/strenght on a cruise because as long as you tolerate sides, the potential benefits are dose dependant for the individual person(not comparable between different persons and how they react on different doses).
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Many guys claim that they can hold a lot of their size from blasting while cruising on TRT dosages. They claim that they couldn’t be that size without blasting. I do think that there is something too it based on how many say it. I could be wrong though. Just something I have heard a lot.
Sure you can hold it. But he asked if you can get BACK to that.
Also, you can hold size, but not strenght. Drop the tren and anadrol and lose 50% after a month guaranteed
That is somewhat the reason why many top lifters train with low percentages offseason. Some of those percentages get dropped when you stop anadrol after the meet.
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Is the mn stand fir minnesota by chance?
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Specifically I asked about muscle memory and its role in growing back size post cycle.
Let me throw another example out. If a well-developed naddy did one good cycle and grew tons of muscle. After PCT would it not be easier to re-grow since you have muscle memory?
Yup.