How Many Irish on T-Nation?

Off Topic
141

[quote]DT20 wrote:
Irish ethnicity can be traced by DNA testing of the Y chromosomes, so there is at least some truth to Irish-Americans claim that they are Irish.

I think we are debating two different definitions for the word Irish:

1-Irish: being born in Ireland and

2-Irish: Irish ethnicity and culture.

The second definition applies to Irish-Americans.

[/quote]

Not really.

What you have in America (for the nth time) is a pleuralistic society. Thats the propper word for it, i aint made it up

(Pluralism - Wikipedia).

‘Affermation and acceptence of diversity’ - This concept always struck me when doing comparitive studies between various nations sporting set ups. Just because someone has an Irish family line it does not mean they are ‘Irish’ in any sense of the word. It means you can fit your ancestry nice and neatly and be catagorised into your various place.

What exactly is Irish culture? Is it Irish culture that is embraced so much or is it the roamntic ideals that people aspire too i.e. the fighting irish, the shamrock etc etc etc.

This is the 21st Century, and the majority of the ‘Irish’ in america are distantly related if that.

But hey, if it makes you feel good you do it. Im going to be a Berserker tomorrow and embrace the power of mead, magic mushrooms and dance naked. Who else is game?

142

[quote]supermick wrote:
Im going to be a Berserker tomorrow and embrace the power of mead, magic mushrooms and dance naked. [/quote]

How will that make tomorrow different from any other day, Mick?

143

supermick,

I don’t know about the UK but in America there are customs/behaviors that are specific to certain cultures, ie-Italians eat certain foods, talk a certain way, etc…

This also applies to other groups like the Irish, Latinos, etc…

If the Sopranos comes on in the UK and you have heard of the character Tony Soprano, then you know that he acts “Italian”, he acts in a way that you can tell his ethnicity. Maybe he isn’t acting “Italian” to Italians from Italy and that is fine, but in America, he is acting “Italian”.

Whether you consider these behaviors and custom to belong to a culture or not is irrelevant, what matters is that there are behaviors and customs that are linked to ethnic groups and therefore indentifiable.

Also DNA is not an opinion, DNA is science, ethnicity is now tracebale via DNA, so there is something to this in the physical scientific realm, this more than just semantics.

[quote]supermick wrote:
DT20 wrote:
Irish ethnicity can be traced by DNA testing of the Y chromosomes, so there is at least some truth to Irish-Americans claim that they are Irish.

I think we are debating two different definitions for the word Irish:

1-Irish: being born in Ireland and

2-Irish: Irish ethnicity and culture.

The second definition applies to Irish-Americans.

Not really.

What you have in America (for the nth time) is a pleuralistic society. Thats the propper word for it, i aint made it up

(Pluralism - Wikipedia).

‘Affermation and acceptence of diversity’ - This concept always struck me when doing comparitive studies between various nations sporting set ups. Just because someone has an Irish family line it does not mean they are ‘Irish’ in any sense of the word. It means you can fit your ancestry nice and neatly and be catagorised into your various place.

What exactly is Irish culture? Is it Irish culture that is embraced so much or is it the roamntic ideals that people aspire too i.e. the fighting irish, the shamrock etc etc etc.

This is the 21st Century, and the majority of the ‘Irish’ in america are distantly related if that.

But hey, if it makes you feel good you do it. Im going to be a Berserker tomorrow and embrace the power of mead, magic mushrooms and dance naked. Who else is game?[/quote]

144

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
supermick wrote:
Im going to be a Berserker tomorrow and embrace the power of mead, magic mushrooms and dance naked.

How will that make tomorrow different from any other day, Mick?[/quote]

i take it your not up for the dancing naked part then?

145

[quote]DT20 wrote:
supermick,

I don’t know about the UK but in America there are customs/behaviors that are specific to certain cultures, ie-Italians eat certain foods, talk a certain way, etc…

This also applies to other groups like the Irish, Latinos, etc…

If the Sopranos comes on in the UK and you have heard of the character Tony Soprano, then you know that he acts “Italian”, he acts in a way that you can tell his ethnicity. Maybe he isn’t acting “Italian” to Italians from Italy and that is fine, but in America, he is acting “Italian”.

Whether you consider these behaviors and custom to belong to a culture or not is irrelevant, what matters is that there are behaviors and customs that are linked to ethnic groups and therefore indentifiable.

Also DNA is not an opinion, DNA is science, ethnicity is now tracebale via DNA, so there is something to this in the physical scientific realm, this more than just semantics.

supermick wrote:
DT20 wrote:
Irish ethnicity can be traced by DNA testing of the Y chromosomes, so there is at least some truth to Irish-Americans claim that they are Irish.

I think we are debating two different definitions for the word Irish:

1-Irish: being born in Ireland and

2-Irish: Irish ethnicity and culture.

The second definition applies to Irish-Americans.

Not really.

What you have in America (for the nth time) is a pleuralistic society. Thats the propper word for it, i aint made it up

(Pluralism - Wikipedia).

‘Affermation and acceptence of diversity’ - This concept always struck me when doing comparitive studies between various nations sporting set ups. Just because someone has an Irish family line it does not mean they are ‘Irish’ in any sense of the word. It means you can fit your ancestry nice and neatly and be catagorised into your various place.

What exactly is Irish culture? Is it Irish culture that is embraced so much or is it the roamntic ideals that people aspire too i.e. the fighting irish, the shamrock etc etc etc.

This is the 21st Century, and the majority of the ‘Irish’ in america are distantly related if that.

But hey, if it makes you feel good you do it. Im going to be a Berserker tomorrow and embrace the power of mead, magic mushrooms and dance naked. Who else is game?

[/quote]

I completely understand where your coming from and to a point the expression ‘you can take the boy out the hood but you cant take the hood out the boy’ applies but not in cases where your great great nans twice removed cousin is involved. My main point is the time span. Who really ‘wants’ to be labelled Irish, Italian etc when you have been brought up and influenced so much by what is American and so little by what is ‘old world’.
Hope thats a bit clearer, but like i said i do understand where you are coming from.

146

[quote]supermick wrote:

i take it your not up for the dancing naked part then?[/quote]

Depends.

Will there be Valkyries?

147

[quote]supermick wrote:

I completely understand where your coming from and to a point the expression ‘you can take the boy out the hood but you cant take the hood out the boy’ applies but not in cases where your great great nans twice removed cousin is involved. My main point is the time span. Who really ‘wants’ to be labelled Irish, Italian etc when you have been brought up and influenced so much by what is American and so little by what is ‘old world’.
[/quote]

Mick, as you seem to refer to pluralism as a primarily American phenomenon, I gotta ask:

How “British” do you consider the Pakistani, Indian and Chinese communities in Britain? Have they been totally assimilated by British society, or do they still cling to the cultural trappings (traditional dress, food, festivals, etc.) of their homelands?

148

[quote]supermick wrote:
DT20 wrote:
supermick,

I don’t know about the UK but in America there are customs/behaviors that are specific to certain cultures, ie-Italians eat certain foods, talk a certain way, etc…

This also applies to other groups like the Irish, Latinos, etc…

If the Sopranos comes on in the UK and you have heard of the character Tony Soprano, then you know that he acts “Italian”, he acts in a way that you can tell his ethnicity. Maybe he isn’t acting “Italian” to Italians from Italy and that is fine, but in America, he is acting “Italian”.

Whether you consider these behaviors and custom to belong to a culture or not is irrelevant, what matters is that there are behaviors and customs that are linked to ethnic groups and therefore indentifiable.

Also DNA is not an opinion, DNA is science, ethnicity is now tracebale via DNA, so there is something to this in the physical scientific realm, this more than just semantics.

supermick wrote:
DT20 wrote:
Irish ethnicity can be traced by DNA testing of the Y chromosomes, so there is at least some truth to Irish-Americans claim that they are Irish.

I think we are debating two different definitions for the word Irish:

1-Irish: being born in Ireland and

2-Irish: Irish ethnicity and culture.

The second definition applies to Irish-Americans.

Not really.

What you have in America (for the nth time) is a pleuralistic society. Thats the propper word for it, i aint made it up

(Pluralism - Wikipedia).

‘Affermation and acceptence of diversity’ - This concept always struck me when doing comparitive studies between various nations sporting set ups. Just because someone has an Irish family line it does not mean they are ‘Irish’ in any sense of the word. It means you can fit your ancestry nice and neatly and be catagorised into your various place.

What exactly is Irish culture? Is it Irish culture that is embraced so much or is it the roamntic ideals that people aspire too i.e. the fighting irish, the shamrock etc etc etc.

This is the 21st Century, and the majority of the ‘Irish’ in america are distantly related if that.

But hey, if it makes you feel good you do it. Im going to be a Berserker tomorrow and embrace the power of mead, magic mushrooms and dance naked. Who else is game?

I completely understand where your coming from and to a point the expression ‘you can take the boy out the hood but you cant take the hood out the boy’ applies but not in cases where your great great nans twice removed cousin is involved. My main point is the time span. Who really ‘wants’ to be labelled Irish, Italian etc when you have been brought up and influenced so much by what is American and so little by what is ‘old world’.
Hope thats a bit clearer, but like i said i do understand where you are coming from.[/quote]

supermick,

I think I see what you are saying. How long will a group consider themselves to be Irish?

A second generation Irish-American might still consider themselves to be Irish, but should someone many years removed still consider themselves Irish?

At what point will the person simply consider themselves to be soley American and not identify with another country? How long does it take?

I don’t know.

I read about pluarlism. It seems that the in the US, many groups identify with their own individual cultures.

The US seems to have multiculturalism while many other nations have monoculturalism.

Is one more right than the other?

I don’t know about the UK as a whole, but aren’t there cities that are multicultural, places like London?

Do they have pluarlism in London?

It is hard for even some Americans to understand, but it is possible to be very proud of being American and also very proud of one’s ancestry.

You don’t have to choose, you can feel proud of both. This concept might be strange to someone not from the US.

Anyway, I wonder if in the next 100-200 years will things be different? Maybe this thread will be impossible a hundred years from now because groups will view themselves differently.

149

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
supermick wrote:

I completely understand where your coming from and to a point the expression ‘you can take the boy out the hood but you cant take the hood out the boy’ applies but not in cases where your great great nans twice removed cousin is involved. My main point is the time span. Who really ‘wants’ to be labelled Irish, Italian etc when you have been brought up and influenced so much by what is American and so little by what is ‘old world’.

Mick, as you seem to refer to pluralism as a primarily American phenomenon, I gotta ask:

How “British” do you consider the Pakistani, Indian and Chinese communities in Britain? Have they been totally assimilated by British society, or do they still cling to the cultural trappings (traditional dress, food, festivals, etc.) of their homelands?[/quote]

It all comes down to the individual but as a generalisation id say they were “British asian”. The Feeling of being asian is more so for the 1st and second generation of people born here. In addition, global metters have probably helped drive a wedge and put this process backwards a few steps of late.

Take the large west Indian immigration to the UK in the middle of the last century. Mostly referred to as “British” now after several more generations of being here than their asian counterparts.

Point standing - There HAS to be a cut off point of when one considers themselves “irish” or “italian” or whatever?
Make sense?

What weight hammer is that by the way?

150

[quote]supermick wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
supermick wrote:

I completely understand where your coming from and to a point the expression ‘you can take the boy out the hood but you cant take the hood out the boy’ applies but not in cases where your great great nans twice removed cousin is involved. My main point is the time span. Who really ‘wants’ to be labelled Irish, Italian etc when you have been brought up and influenced so much by what is American and so little by what is ‘old world’.

Mick, as you seem to refer to pluralism as a primarily American phenomenon, I gotta ask:

How “British” do you consider the Pakistani, Indian and Chinese communities in Britain? Have they been totally assimilated by British society, or do they still cling to the cultural trappings (traditional dress, food, festivals, etc.) of their homelands?

It all comes down to the individual but as a generalisation id say they were “British asian”. The Feeling of being asian is more so for the 1st and second generation of people born here. In addition, global metters have probably helped drive a wedge and put this process backwards a few steps of late.

Take the large west Indian immigration to the UK in the middle of the last century. Mostly referred to as “British” now after several more generations of being here than their asian counterparts.

Point standing - There HAS to be a cut off point of when one considers themselves “irish” or “italian” or whatever?
Make sense?

What weight hammer is that by the way?

[/quote]

You know this whole thread thing demonstrates how many people simply want to be Irish

And after mey list of the planets founding fathers - who wouldn’t!

How heavy? … he’s Irish … so very heavy, too heavy for you!

As we say over here (that’s Ireland) you need a big hammer to drive a big nail.

151

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Although the question of what constitutes being Irish may never be resolved, perhaps a better question is “what does it mean to be British?”

Here is one answer:

“Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV. And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of anything foreign.”[/quote]

Best post on this GODDAM thread!

152

Damn Supermick, you’re still here arguing whether or not people are “Irish” or not. Let it go man!

It’s been established. Americans are not Irish citzens, we are american citizens. It’s our heritage and ethnicity and the DNA that is carried on thru generation after generation that is inheritantly “IRISH”.

You don’t get red hair, freckles, pale white skin, and a liver that can handle a keg of Guinness from being born in America and having American heritage. You were probably either born in Ireland or come from descendants that were born there.

I’m convinced that you saw the movie “Braveheart” and were humiliated to be an Englishman, then decided in a feeble attempt to save face you would just deny anyone that claims to be of Scottish or Irish blood… denying the existance of this bloodline. It runs rich in America Mick.

Are you a wannabe Irishman Mick? Do you wish our celtic blood was pumpming in your veins?

Let it go Mick, were here and were not going away. By the way, my family surnames are Jensby and O’Laughlin… those sound like Native American names to me huh? Just like Spotted-Horse and He-Who-Whistles (English meaning of the name I cannot pronounce… sorry I don’t speak that native language, I speak this borrowed one)

153

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

This whole thread is ironic. 150 years ago, Americans were telling Irishman that…

“We don’t care what you do, you’re not fucking American. Now get out.”

How times change…
[/quote]

True, but look how people have become when discussing their “Native American” heritage. Now everyone is supposedly 1/8th Native American or 1/32nd, it has been romanticized as of late, where as years ago no one would admit to this and would assimilate, not that it would be too hard.

154

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
Damn Supermick, you’re still here arguing whether or not people are “Irish” or not. Let it go man!

It’s been established. Americans are not Irish citzens, we are american citizens. It’s our heritage and ethnicity and the DNA that is carried on thru generation after generation that is inheritantly “IRISH”.

You don’t get red hair, freckles, pale white skin, and a liver that can handle a keg of Guinness from being born in America and having American heritage. You were probably either born in Ireland or come from descendants that were born there.

I’m convinced that you saw the movie “Braveheart” and were humiliated to be an Englishman, then decided in a feeble attempt to save face you would just deny anyone that claims to be of Scottish or Irish blood… denying the existance of this bloodline. It runs rich in America Mick.

Are you a wannabe Irishman Mick? Do you wish our celtic blood was pumpming in your veins?

Let it go Mick, were here and were not going away. By the way, my family surnames are Jensby and O’Laughlin… those sound like Native American names to me huh? Just like Spotted-Horse and He-Who-Whistles (English meaning of the name I cannot pronounce… sorry I don’t speak that native language, I speak this borrowed one)[/quote]

Well Go heavy, besides having the odd dig at me i can sum up your contribution to this thread thusly: - Fuck all. I hope you dont need me to translate that into celtic or for me to spell it out in the head of your guinness to understand it.

You seem to be the kind of idiot that i am aiming my points of view at. You couldnt tell me anything about Irish culture or heritage that you havent read in an irish themed pub or gathered from watching that great ‘irishman’ michael flatley in riverdance.

And FYI the best part in the woefully historically inacurate braveheart movie is when the English show him who is boss at the end of the film.
I want to be an Irishman as much as an Irishman or Scot would want to be English. Besides, i dont think the chip would suit me that i would have to carry on my shoulder for life. :slight_smile:

155

AHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

156

Im not Irish at all. 100 percent fierce scotland girl. I can throw spears.

…And I practice with swords in my spare time…(Im lying, but if they had sword throwing in track and field-youd see me first in line to do it)

…But you really never know, I could be a reincarnated scottish killing machine.

157

[quote]no23 wrote:

You know this whole thread thing demonstrates how many people simply want to be Irish

I dont wanna be Irish!!! I like being scottish!!! This poet guy in my high school literature book is my really really really distant ancestor. But isnt that cool? I mean, he wasnt some warrior, he wore tights and wrote good enough little poems about life and flowers or whatever to get in my literature book. I think thats pretty darn neat. Im proud of my wimpy ancestor.

And after mey list of the planets founding fathers - who wouldn’t!

How heavy? … he’s Irish … so very heavy, too heavy for you!

As we say over here (that’s Ireland) you need a big hammer to drive a big nail.
[/quote]

158

[quote]supermick wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
Damn Supermick, you’re still here arguing whether or not people are “Irish” or not. Let it go man!

It’s been established. Americans are not Irish citzens, we are american citizens. It’s our heritage and ethnicity and the DNA that is carried on thru generation after generation that is inheritantly “IRISH”.

You don’t get red hair, freckles, pale white skin, and a liver that can handle a keg of Guinness from being born in America and having American heritage. You were probably either born in Ireland or come from descendants that were born there.

I’m convinced that you saw the movie “Braveheart” and were humiliated to be an Englishman, then decided in a feeble attempt to save face you would just deny anyone that claims to be of Scottish or Irish blood… denying the existance of this bloodline. It runs rich in America Mick.

Are you a wannabe Irishman Mick? Do you wish our celtic blood was pumpming in your veins?

Let it go Mick, were here and were not going away. By the way, my family surnames are Jensby and O’Laughlin… those sound like Native American names to me huh? Just like Spotted-Horse and He-Who-Whistles (English meaning of the name I cannot pronounce… sorry I don’t speak that native language, I speak this borrowed one)

Well Go heavy, besides having the odd dig at me i can sum up your contribution to this thread thusly: - Fuck all. I hope you dont need me to translate that into celtic or for me to spell it out in the head of your guinness to understand it.

You seem to be the kind of idiot that i am aiming my points of view at. You couldnt tell me anything about Irish culture or heritage that you havent read in an irish themed pub or gathered from watching that great ‘irishman’ michael flatley in riverdance.

And FYI the best part in the woefully historically inacurate braveheart movie is when the English show him who is boss at the end of the film.
I want to be an Irishman as much as an Irishman or Scot would want to be English. Besides, i dont think the chip would suit me that i would have to carry on my shoulder for life. :)[/quote]

Sorry for calling you out Supermick, but you deserved it. You did enough America bashing and Irishing bashing don’t ya think? You didn’t think all of us Americans and or Irish were just gonna sit here and listen to you spit non-sense one line after the next.

I don’t care if I’m American or Irish or whatever the fuck, I’m just glad I’m not some miserable Englishman that spends three days on a thread trying to justify some useless opinion about pluralism.

The fact is, you can move to Ireland, live there for 30 years and us Americans with Irish blood… will still be more Irish than you could ever be. With our celtic blood pumping through our hearts, it doesn’t go away Mick. The Irish now have two places to call home. Ireland and America. There are plenty in both countries. But the Irish blood will always be Irish no matter what country its in. If Paddy O’Doyle moves his ass to Jamaica… he’s still Irish buddy. He’s just an Irishman in Jamaica. No different then our familys migrating here. Were Irish living in America Supermick.

Some of us are more “Irish” than others… carrying more genetic material or culture with us. But, when you’re born with Irish genes, you will always be Irish. You can go on for years with your semantics… bottom line is you’re not going to chnage anybody’s bloodline, they all stem from the same place the Irish like to call home.

159

[quote]supermick wrote:

You couldnt tell me anything about Irish culture or heritage that you havent read in an irish themed pub or gathered from watching that great ‘irishman’ michael flatley in riverdance.

[/quote]

Mick you’re asking about history now. There is some Indian or some Spanish guy that knows more about both cultures than I do. They’re history buffs. That doesn’t make you Irish. Hell, every true Irishman I’ve ever met couldn’t remember what day of the week it was because he was so drunk… let alone what country he’s from and how it originated in the first place.

I couln’t tell you that kinda shit about America. As far I as know, I am equally ignorant on any countries history or true native culture. You’re just reaching.

I pegged you awhile ago. You’re miserable, admit it.

This has nothing to do with your attempt to define pluralism or semantics. You’re a sadist.

160

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
supermick wrote:

You couldnt tell me anything about Irish culture or heritage that you havent read in an irish themed pub or gathered from watching that great ‘irishman’ michael flatley in riverdance.

Mick you’re asking about history now. There is some Indian or some Spanish guy that knows more about both cultures than I do. They’re history buffs. That doesn’t make you Irish. Hell, every true Irishman I’ve ever met couldn’t remember what day of the week it was because he was so drunk let alone what country he’s from and how it originated in the first place.

I couln’t tell you that shit about America. As far I as know, I am equally ignorant on any countries history or true native culture. You’re just reaching.

I pegged you awhile ago. You’re miserable, admit it.

This has nothing to do with your attempt to define pluralism or semantics. You’re a sadist.
[/quote]

You havent really addressed any of the issues i have bought up but instead harped on about some romantic notions about heritage and blood in your hearts. Im a realist more than a sadist or miserable bastard and you know as well as i do that the notion you adhere too is utter crap.

In no post have i disrespected Irish people or Americans, just the notion of the 25th generation ‘irishman’.