Not sure how common this actually is, but I’ve seen several people with average Total T and low Free-T, whom all experience low-T symptoms, even at an early age, myself included pre-TRT.
At what level would you say it would be worth considering TRT if FT is low and all the usual parameters have been optimized? (working out, diet, sleep). Obviously my answer to this was “yes”. However, I may be wrong and only care about being less wrong in the future.
Example scale - pg/mL 9.3-26.5.
Symptoms are what matter. Some people need to be at the high end of that scale just to feel normal
Personally seeing people in the bottom 25% or under that scale would make me think that TRT might be worth looking into further.
Solid answer. I think bottom 25% is a good heuristic for considering TRT, too.
This is also true. Most of course will be mid bell curve, but many are likely less or more sensitive than average to testosterone and thus need more or less than most.
My only concern with the whole symptoms vs numbers debate is a misdiagnosis based on a biased conclusion. I’d still recommend people to start with low-hanging fruit like 1) sleep, 2) diet, 3) exercise, 4) nutrient deficiencies, then 5) checking for sex hormones and thyroid, then picking the larger outlier hormone to focus on. This should result in their best ROI, although I’m sure many people would still never achieve “great” levels of Free-T like they could from TRT.
Dr. Abraham Morgentaler, leading international figure in the fields of testosterone therapy, prostate cancer, and male sexuality, the authority in testosterone at Harvard and the man behind proving TRT doesn’t cause prostate cancer says men with FT levels at or below 15 pg/mL (9.3-26.5 pg/mL) are expected to show benefits on TRT.
Dr. Abraham Morgentaler is also the author of “Testosterone For Life”.
We are also seeing a generational decline in testosterone, men born in the 90’s are starting out lower than men in the 80’s, those born in 2000 are starting out even lower and the trend will continue.
It is very hard to say. If you check the calculated free t most people start to feel optimal above 15-20ng/dl but this is very relative. Everyone has different sensitivity of the androgen receptors. This is a function of how much they have been poisoned by the toxic environment we live in
@marcus007
It depends on what you are wanting to get out of TRT. There are advantages to having higher Test levels as well as constant Test levels that don’t waiver do to things like sleep, nutrition, etc (not that those aren’t still vital). Being dialed in on TRT gives you an advantage that even those with the same levels naturally don’t get. There are negatives as well but for me the positives far out way them. It just depends on what you want and what you place importance on.
@systemlord @vonko1988 So, most people won’t benefit much after 15 pg/mL FT? If so, I guess the benefit of TRT would be keeping this FT optimal state as long as possible.
For someone on TRT, would there be an optimal zone? I often see 25-35 pg/mL as the go-to zone.
We are not sure that someone cannot benefit after 15 because everybody needs different amount and yes I see most people shoot for 25-35 but some people need more 40 even 50
I’m an engineer, so just trying to figure out all these variables nerd-style… So if someone experiences low-T symptoms and result in FT below 15, they should consider TRT. Then once on TRT, they should aim for 25-35. If all looks good, but still feel less than great, they should aim to raise their FT even more, by small increments.
To me it seems FT is the most dependent variable for TRT, while E2 range of 15-25 T to 1 E is also dependent, and TT, SHBG, Albumin only matter as they give context to FT.
Dude, Im also an engineer but it doesnt work this way. The body is not a mechanical structure or a software program. One of the ever best doctors in hormone replacement said this is more art than science. You should go first after the symptoms and after that after the numbers. Symptoms will determine what numbers you need
For example @dextermorgan keeps his total t around 2000 and feels great. I think if I keep mine there I will die from insomnia or will end up shooting people on the streets or who knows what. And @systemlord fees awesome at 600 total t. I know free t is more important, but you have similar variability there. If you choose to go on TRT dont bother yourself much with estrogen and shbg.
This. If it were that black and white, yes/no anyone could do it and we’d be all on the same amounts or shooting for the same levels. It doesn’t work that way in reality. Everyone is different.
Uhh yes it is. You do one thing and the body reacts. Most people are running off the same operating system with slight variations, that’s how we come to a bell curve. My reply above was meant as prioritized options one should take based on what has worked for most people. Once, you go down the options, you will be more likely closer to the goal.
Exactly what I said. Symptoms are always the first consideration. I only complimented symptoms with numbers as it would give a lead on what to look for, than rather, something else.
They started off with some kind of baseline, they didn’t just randomly decide to start in outlier territory. That was my whole point - developing a process that plays off the odds of success and leads you to the right protocol even if you are an outlier. Of course this can be a very complicated process, but it’s worth exploring your most likely options first.
That’s what I said in my reply as well. SHBG is just a context variable and E2 is mostly an overrated variable, but should still be considered dependent, especially for those overdosing on AIs.
Every science begins in some type of hypothesis, then a process and ends as art. As I stated in my opening statement to this thread, I only give a fuck about the truth. It doesn’t do anyone good saying “art” not science. Don’t even know the fuck that means. Science is a process realized through educated guesses, and the accomplishment of this process is the art.